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Okay let us start with one that Masterminds have been asking about for years.. Aside from some paranoid delusion that allowing us to have the option to have female minions will result in the end of the known universe. Why cant my female MM have female pets!|
Originally Posted by Kai
Hey, look, suddenly we have resources to make new costume packs that continue the trend of locking pieces to genders indiscriminately! How about we take some of those lovely resources and fix all the wonderfully stupid omissions over the years?
(Psst, mods, this means please sticky) Costume Issues Might as well start with the big one. Things Females should have but don't: Tattoo options like guys Renegade hat Mars chest symbol Baron coat (Magic pack) Steampunk jacket (Steampunk pack) Gunslinger jacket (Gunslinger pack) Chaps (Gunslinger pack) Male Resistance style hair Male Barbarian belt Male Barbarian shoulder rings Thing Males should have but don't: Bracers (Martial Arts pack?) Shoulder pets Venus chest symbol Witch hat(Magic pack) Female Resistance hair styles Headband and tiaras under detail 1 Female Barbarian belt Female Barbarian shoulder rings Animations Females should have the same sit animation options as males Please add the things you've noticed and I'll add them to this post and hopefully someone dev wise will pay attention and these things might get fixed |
please let me clarify that years back the answer was that the dev team was afraid that perverted males would use binds or marcos to have female minions bowing at their feet and this would be very sexist. Then the same group churns out one costume set after another that denies females some very cool things the males have while giving us one scanty option after another.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
To add to things males should get but don't:
Ponytail 1 and 2
Longer hair in general
Also, I'd like the shoulder fur for one of my male toons who would wear a fuzzy jacket.
In my head it's meant to one one of those things where it looks silly outwardly but when you see them fight it ends up being pretty badass.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Men also need corset's, high heels, and fishnet stockings! Dang women git all the cool outfits! 
Tain't far ah say!
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More to the point... Masterminds are lame as solo combatants. So what's really more empowering to females - a woman who has no choice but to let an army of men do all the fighting for her, or a character who relies a bunch of butt-kicking female thugs/soldiers/ninjas to do their violence?|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Okay let us start with one that Masterminds have been asking about for years.. Aside from some paranoid delusion that allowing us to have the option to have female minions will result in the end of the known universe. Why cant my female MM have female pets!
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We all know it - the opportunities for misogyny in the game are already without limits. The lack of female mastermind lackeys saves nothing.
I really want to see them fix the things that are withheld from males too. I'm not talking corsets or stockings (c'mon, we all know the prospective market for those is itty-bitty). But what about the so-called "tiaras" that women get, which are just headbands in a style that's actually quite suitable for barbarians or knights? What about the female "headband" detail, for that matter? What about the cloud and dragon bracers? What about shoulder pets? What about long freaking hair?
If the argument is that women miss out on lovely the stuff like the costume pack coats and boots because they have more options, then the obvious answer is to use give-and-take. I'll take your steampunk sleeves and Baron coat, you can have cool martial arts bracers and a haircut that isn't short bloody back and sides.
The Girl Your Mother Warned You About
Primary Virtue ~ Secondary Guardian
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Nice way to insult every woman serving as an officer or NCO in the military or any other male dominated career for that matter. So you don't think it's empowering that a woman in a leadership position can inspire a bunch of men with Esprit De Corp so they are willing to charge the very gates of Hell and die for her. |
Originally Posted by FoxLee
More to the point... Masterminds are lame as solo combatants. So what's really more empowering to females - a woman who has no choice but to let an army of men do all the fighting for her, or a character who relies a bunch of butt-kicking female thugs/soldiers/ninjas to do their violence?
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Women had to fight tooth and nail to get the respect and loyalty that men in the same position are given automatically and if you think they are lame or that they are letting men do their fighting for them, then you seriously need to get your head examined.
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He's talking about how weak the Mastermind AT (male or female) is when fighting alone. Seems like you knee-jerked all this extra stuff.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Nice way to insult every woman serving as an officer or NCO in the military or any other male dominated career for that matter. So you don't think it's empowering that a woman in a leadership position can inspire a bunch of men with Esprit De Corp so they are willing to charge the very gates of Hell and die for her.
Women had to fight tooth and nail to get the respect and loyalty that men in the same position are given automatically and if you think they are lame or that they are letting men do their fighting for them, then you seriously need to get your head examined. |
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And yet, that paranoid delusion is the Word of Dev. Thus it is so, and shall be.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Aside from some paranoid delusion...
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Men also need corset's, high heels, and fishnet stockings! Dang women git all the cool outfits!
Tain't far ah say! |
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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^ agree about agreeing for the reasons to agree.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
And yet, that paranoid delusion is the Word of Dev. Thus it is so, and shall be.
I don't know if you're being facetious or not, so I will just agree with you. I look forward to more clothing options for male body shapes. |
there have been plenty of male superheroes in comics with thigh high boots. it fits for some costumes and themes. heck even some of the shorter skirt [leather, side split] options could fit for barbarian/ roman/ antiquity/ native themes. heck even one bikini option would be nice instead of the same dang box of a "bare" option for males. and more lower body skin options please? what's the hang up, really? also, how about the tennis shoes without socks option? TWO witch hat options that we cant have, long hair, bracers, crown/ringlet/tiaras, etc.
and for female body types, a lot has been mentioned that i second. tattoos, jackets, a couple hair options, etc - though they already really do have more options.
also, yes to everything above. it really bothers me that females get yet another short "skirt" and corset [this time with ugly stripes on the best piece of the set that wont go away no matter what] and males get ...more jackets and shoes you can only wear with pants.
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Fixed that for you.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
She's talking about how weak the Mastermind AT (male or female) is when fighting alone. Seems like you knee-jerked all this extra stuff.
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Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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To be more precise that is the EXCUSE of a Dev.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
And yet, that paranoid delusion is the Word of Dev. Thus it is so, and shall be.
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I realize that the use of that word might be seen as a nit-pick on my part, but I think it's important to realize that Posi is simply using that doom-n-gloom rationale as an excuse to avoid having to do some extra work to give us an option that apparently many people still want.
I'm willing to grant that Posi's fears may have a small portion of validity. I'm quite sure there would be at least a -few- idiots who would abuse this. But I honestly believe he's oversold the negatives simply to serve his real inclination to avoid doing a bunch of extra work he otherwise doesn't feel is justified. I think he'd rather have us think "his hands are tied" in this situation rather than to have to tell us he's just arbitrarily decided he doesn't want to do it. *shrugs*
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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I always wanted to do a character based on the Rocky Horror Picture Show. |
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
I don't know if you're being facetious or not, so I will just agree with you. I look forward to more clothing options for male body shapes.
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Feel free to interpret his post any way you like. It doesn't bother me if you see something else.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
He's talking about how weak the Mastermind AT (male or female) is when fighting alone. Seems like you knee-jerked all this extra stuff.
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Ah.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I always wanted to do a character based on the Rocky Horror Picture Show.
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Personally, I could see heavy use of them on about half of my characters as normal costume items.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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I didn't know the OP's gender, and most English attempts at gender-neutral pronouns sound clunky - guess I should've used "the OP" or "Kai" instead.
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Fixed that for you.
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I love it when people call the devs lazy and liars.. always a great way to show them your appreciation.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
To be more precise that is the EXCUSE of a Dev.
I realize that the use of that word might be seen as a nit-pick on my part, but I think it's important to realize that Posi is simply using that doom-n-gloom rationale as an excuse to avoid having to do some extra work to give us an option that apparently many people still want. I'm willing to grant that Posi's fears may have a small portion of validity. I'm quite sure there would be at least a -few- idiots who would abuse this. But I honestly believe he's oversold the negatives simply to serve his real inclination to avoid doing a bunch of extra work he otherwise doesn't feel is justified. I think he'd rather have us think "his hands are tied" in this situation rather than to have to tell us he's just arbitrarily decided he doesn't want to do it. *shrugs* |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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This exactly (though it's "she" for the record). Real world women in combat command are capable combatants themselves; I'm not talking about them at all. Masterminds without pets, OTOH, are not.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
He's talking about how weak the Mastermind AT (male or female) is when fighting alone. Seems like you knee-jerked all this extra stuff.
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The Girl Your Mother Warned You About
Primary Virtue ~ Secondary Guardian
If it makes you feel better I read Fred's post like 3 times trying to figure out what he was fixing? I don't get hung up on the whole gender on the internet thing, product of wanting to reach out and smack every girl who ever said that to get free stuff in a game likely 
But yes, thigh high flat soled boots would be awesome for everyone, lots of silver agey guys in boots, but concentrating in this thread on things that already exist and could be ported/allowed easily, there is a whole ton of things from hair bows without veils to open collar dress shirts without jackets that would be nice adjustments of things.
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Agreed!|
Originally Posted by FoxLee
More to the point... Masterminds are lame as solo combatants. So what's really more empowering to females - a woman who has no choice but to let an army of men do all the fighting for her, or a character who relies a bunch of butt-kicking female thugs/soldiers/ninjas to do their violence?
We all know it - the opportunities for misogyny in the game are already without limits. The lack of female mastermind lackeys saves nothing. I really want to see them fix the things that are withheld from males too. I'm not talking corsets or stockings (c'mon, we all know the prospective market for those is itty-bitty). But what about the so-called "tiaras" that women get, which are just headbands in a style that's actually quite suitable for barbarians or knights? What about the female "headband" detail, for that matter? What about the cloud and dragon bracers? What about shoulder pets? What about long freaking hair? If the argument is that women miss out on lovely the stuff like the costume pack coats and boots because they have more options, then the obvious answer is to use give-and-take. I'll take your steampunk sleeves and Baron coat, you can have cool martial arts bracers and a haircut that isn't short bloody back and sides. |
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Okay let us start with one that Masterminds have been asking about for years.. Aside from some paranoid delusion that allowing us to have the option to have female minions will result in the end of the known universe. Why cant my female MM have female pets!
please let me clarify that years back the answer was that the dev team was afraid that perverted males would use binds or marcos to have female minions bowing at their feet and this would be very sexist. Then the same group churns out one costume set after another that denies females some very cool things the males have while giving us one scanty option after another. |
I have brought it up at the last two events I've been to, and the same answers keep getting given....so perhaps if we get enough people behind the idea, something might get done (and they see this isn't a 1 off)
I'm glad to see this thread here--I grabbed the gunslinger pack yesterday pretty much as soon as I saw it, 'cause I have a DP that I wanted to give the chaps, jacket, hat, etc. to... unfortunately, that DP is female. and of all my (mostly) female toons, about the least likely to dress as a cheap dance-hall floozy. I haven't played with the steampunk pack as much, and the female options there were about what I was looking for, but this was very annoying.
Ultimately, with this costume pack and given the historical context of the period, we are being told that women don't get to ride horses (which you could not do in that costume) or wear pants. Men can ride and shoot just fine, but in order to wield guns women have to be... prostitutes.
Now to be clear, I absolutely love the dance-hall-floozy costume. My first comment on seeing the picture was a delighted "I can be a floozy!", and I have at least a couple characters who will probably use pieces of it (although I'd like the veil without that huge bow, personally). But it's not the reason I threw down the points for the set. And it's absurd that, in a game where I have characters who SWITCH GENDERS, and they allow for that to the extent of having gendered badge titles actually change (Ferryman/Ferrywoman of the Damned, for instance, depending on which body is being worn at the moment), those two bodies can't have the same completely reasonable outfit.
If options were to open up--I'd say personally that everything except the bare chest options ought to be open for any body type--we'd see a temporary flood of huge men in tiny bikinis with bustiers as people started to play with it for kicks, and then most of the players would get bored with making the outrageous for no reason other than that it was outrageous, and things would settle down to near-status-quo pretty quickly, but with a LOT more options for people who had a specific concept.
For men, that concept can include other cultures and time periods where dress was not like it is today, or silver-age options, or merely embarrassing body-type issues (uh-oh, I turn into a giant man when I get upset and now I'm fighting crime in the shreds of an evening dress because I didn't have time to change!) (not even going into the continued lack of a huge female body type, as that would require significant extra coding time). For women, that includes a lot more options that DO NOT require you to display lots of flesh or skin-tight clothing. I know it's a long-standing tradition in comics, but some of us would like to make more realistic heroes. If I make a tough-as-nails ex-punk with an Axe, she's not likely to start dolling up in a bustier, but she is likely to have a lot of tattoos. Except that wait, I can't.
This game has more costume options than pretty much any other game ever, and I really really appreciate that your powers are not tied to your outfit (coff WoW coff). I love the costume and character creators, and have made far more toons than I can ever play just so that I can play with the options. But it's absurd that in new costume packs women are not allowed to wear pants!
As for MMs not having female lackeys... I don't generally play MMs (they're a little too much for me to keep track of at once) so I can't say I'd leap on the option to have an all-female destruction machine. But I would darn well love to play alongside one, because, and this is important, it would be AWESOME.
Sorry, that got a lot more rant-y than I meant for it to. I just ...kind of want my points back, frankly. I'll use some of the other costume pieces, sure, but the reason I bought the gunslinger pack in the first place is pretty much invalid as long as any character with a female body type can't wear the chaps. <sigh>
Have a good day, y'all.
--Isus Trikanda
10 50s, a 48, and and better than 100 sub-50 alts... the altitis is strong in this one.
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truth.|
Originally Posted by IsusTrikanda
I'm glad to see this thread here--I grabbed the gunslinger pack yesterday pretty much as soon as I saw it, 'cause I have a DP that I wanted to give the chaps, jacket, hat, etc. to... unfortunately, that DP is female. and of all my (mostly) female toons, about the least likely to dress as a cheap dance-hall floozy. I haven't played with the steampunk pack as much, and the female options there were about what I was looking for, but this was very annoying.
Ultimately, with this costume pack and given the historical context of the period, we are being told that women don't get to ride horses (which you could not do in that costume) or wear pants. Men can ride and shoot just fine, but in order to wield guns women have to be... prostitutes. Now to be clear, I absolutely love the dance-hall-floozy costume. My first comment on seeing the picture was a delighted "I can be a floozy!", and I have at least a couple characters who will probably use pieces of it (although I'd like the veil without that huge bow, personally). But it's not the reason I threw down the points for the set. And it's absurd that, in a game where I have characters who SWITCH GENDERS, and they allow for that to the extent of having gendered badge titles actually change (Ferryman/Ferrywoman of the Damned, for instance, depending on which body is being worn at the moment), those two bodies can't have the same completely reasonable outfit. If options were to open up--I'd say personally that everything except the bare chest options ought to be open for any body type--we'd see a temporary flood of huge men in tiny bikinis with bustiers as people started to play with it for kicks, and then most of the players would get bored with making the outrageous for no reason other than that it was outrageous, and things would settle down to near-status-quo pretty quickly, but with a LOT more options for people who had a specific concept. For men, that concept can include other cultures and time periods where dress was not like it is today, or silver-age options, or merely embarrassing body-type issues (uh-oh, I turn into a giant man when I get upset and now I'm fighting crime in the shreds of an evening dress because I didn't have time to change!) (not even going into the continued lack of a huge female body type, as that would require significant extra coding time). For women, that includes a lot more options that DO NOT require you to display lots of flesh or skin-tight clothing. I know it's a long-standing tradition in comics, but some of us would like to make more realistic heroes. If I make a tough-as-nails ex-punk with an Axe, she's not likely to start dolling up in a bustier, but she is likely to have a lot of tattoos. Except that wait, I can't. This game has more costume options than pretty much any other game ever, and I really really appreciate that your powers are not tied to your outfit (coff WoW coff). I love the costume and character creators, and have made far more toons than I can ever play just so that I can play with the options. But it's absurd that in new costume packs women are not allowed to wear pants! As for MMs not having female lackeys... I don't generally play MMs (they're a little too much for me to keep track of at once) so I can't say I'd leap on the option to have an all-female destruction machine. But I would darn well love to play alongside one, because, and this is important, it would be AWESOME. Sorry, that got a lot more rant-y than I meant for it to. I just ...kind of want my points back, frankly. I'll use some of the other costume pieces, sure, but the reason I bought the gunslinger pack in the first place is pretty much invalid as long as any character with a female body type can't wear the chaps. <sigh> Have a good day, y'all. |
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Originally Posted by Firemoth
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"Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy View Post Okay let us start with one that Masterminds have been asking about for years.. Aside from some paranoid delusion that allowing us to have the option to have female minions will result in the end of the known universe. Why cant my female MM have female pets! please let me clarify that years back the answer was that the dev team was afraid that perverted males would use binds or marcos to have female minions bowing at their feet and this would be very sexist. Then the same group churns out one costume set after another that denies females some very cool things the males have while giving us one scanty option after another." *points to thread link in her sig* I have brought it up at the last two events I've been to, and the same answers keep getting given....so perhaps if we get enough people behind the idea, something might get done (and they see this isn't a 1 off) |
not to say that the work wasn't hard and well intentioned, or that the pieces are ugly, or unappreciated, because that's not true. the pieces are great, aside from being very unbalanced and unnecessarily scanty, and i'll even use a couple parts like everyone else because, well, it's new... and i already got it :/... but that set was so not anywhere near to being on the list [much less the top of said list] of things i want ["barmaid"? really? seems like she belongs in a brothel. that is, if you're going to time period, which i assume you are.] for my characters. but some critical thinking about why what is made and who it's made for could help everyone.
buttcapes [FOR ALL] yes. gun slinging western lady yes. dress that barely covers my parts no.
even one of the female samples in the image for the set, in order to present a decent-for gunslinging-female, is wearing hardly any of the set. why? *points to the critical thinking cap that has been left behind*
That is the one nice thing about being able to preview costume parts in the character creator, I didn't waste the points on packs and bits I have no use for. I intend to keep this thread active until we get some sort of specific response, so feel free to keep posting!
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I've been trying to get the word out to everyone I know/play with, short of spamming broadcast channels in my server...|
Originally Posted by daveyj3
we need to have more people see and post in this thread. i've gotten these reasons time and again also, along with "it's a minority of players that this would satisfy and we have to think about the greater good", and about scantily clad lady-parts: "this is what is expected from us from the players". right, the players who you dont want to give female masterminds so as not to objectify them... you give them female objectifying clothing.
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I think my husband put it best though, that more than likely there are some rather severe Paragon City and Rogue Isles labour laws being broken by not allowing women to work with masterminds.
Here's another way of looking at it, I guess. The devs say they don't want to objectify the females, or to make them into harems, etc etc....yet they have been coming out with objectifying costumes...including a harem like outfit (Genie).....to use their own statement they "can't have it both ways"
Another item that is inexplicably male-only (well, leaving aside the "number of costume parts" explanation): the "Resistance Hat" aka aviator's hat.
Count me as another that would like female options for MM minions. My imagining of one (added) option would be the KoA as minions. Heck, they'd make good ninja-alikes in many ways!
(Here are some exampled of female characters that I'm inspired by in comics for those arguing that all female characters have to be rather... fabric-free: Renee "The Question" Montoya, Barbara "Oracle/Batgirl" Gordon, Jenny Sparks, Jenny Quantum, Katherine "Kitty" Pryde, most times Agatha Heterodyne, Colonel Maximillia "Maxima" Leander, Carol "Binary" Danvers, depending on the artist Anna "Rogue" Marie, Charlie "Misfit" Gage-Radcliffe, Tatsu "Katana" Yamashiro, Sandra "Lady Shiva" Woosan, Dawn "Dove" Granger, some renditions of Lady Mechanika, Alison "Dazzler" Blair, Valerie Cooper, Dakota North, Cassie "Giant-Girl) Lang, Molly "Princess Powerful/Bruiser" Hayes, Agent Abigail Brand, Rahne "Wolfesbane" Sinclair, Ruth "Sabra" Bat-Seraph, Julie "Lightspeed" Power, Jennifer "Hazmat" Takeda, Gertrude "Arsenic" Yorkes, and even Zinda "Lady Blackhawk" Blake in many appearances). Note that several of these are still in the "sexy" and definite "super-hero" categories without being trampy. I don't want City of Burqas or City of Nuns, but I would like to avoid having no real options for female characters but vestiphobes.
Primarily on Victory, Virtue, Justice, and Guardian, in that order.
Member of the Pride public global channel
Let me be clear that I don't want MMs to get female pets if it's only in a new female-only set, like the Carnies everybody keeps asking for. "Male minions are soldiers and female minions are busty dolled-up harlequins" is exactly the same as "male gunslingers are cool cowboys and female gunslingers are saloon floozies" by my estimation. Providing a female-only option with an aesthetic directed towards fanservice and femininity isn't equalising, it's just furthering the idea that men and women must be separate and different.
The Girl Your Mother Warned You About
Primary Virtue ~ Secondary Guardian
Hey, look, suddenly we have resources to make new costume packs! Why are we continuing the trend of locking pieces to genders indiscriminately? How about we take some of those lovely resources and fix all the wonderfully, sorry to say, stupid omissions over the years?
(Psst, mods, this means please sticky)
Costume Issues
Might as well start with the big one.
Things Females should have but don't:
Tattoo options like guys
Renegade hat
Mars chest symbol
Male Resistance style hair
Male Barbarian belt
Male Barbarian shoulder rings
Male Barbarian shorts
Male chest straps
Syndicate pants pattern
Male Resistance/Aviator hat
Skull mask
Thing Males should have but don't:
Bracers (Martial Arts pack?)
Shoulder pets
Venus chest symbol
Witch hat(Magic pack)
Female Resistance hair styles
Headband and tiaras under detail 1
Female Barbarian belt
Female Barbarian shoulder rings
Female Barbarian skirt (aka loincloth)
Bolero fur (Magic pack)
Bolero shoulders (Imperial Dynasty pack)
Female High and Low Ponytails
Buttcapes for widows
Acension boots with above knee plats
Thigh high boots
Carnie sash
Animations
Females should have the same sit animation options as males
Gameplay
Female Mastermind minions
Things Fixed!
Baron coat (Magic pack) Fixed by Dink!
Steampunk jacket (Steampunk pack) Fixed by Dink
Gunslinger jacket (Gunslinger pack) Fixed by Dink!
Chaps (Gunslinger pack) Fixed by Dink!
Please add the things you've noticed and I'll add them to this post and hopefully someone dev wise will pay attention and these things might get fixed