Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-29 06:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Let's not forget the suggestive Silver Mantis dialouge.|
Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
The thing that makes these Underwear Packs more irritating is the line Positron gave at the Player Summit for why the devs were wary of allowing full Mastermind minion custombility: they were afraid of the possibility of people making a Thugs mastermind with gun toting bikini girls.
I mean, seriously? You guys talk about "We don't want Masterminds with armies of strippers" but then give players stuff like this. One of these things is not like the other. |
Before combat: Scorpion is going to owe me a lot for babysitting this nerd.
Combat start: C'mon, heroes! I'll take you all at once!
At 75% Life: Mmmmm! You hurt me so good!
At 50% Life: The pain! The anger! Yes! You really know how to treat a girl!
At 25% Life: Oh yes! OH YES! This is a battle!
Defeated: That's it...
I'm spent
Take the code, you earned it.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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Even worse, these outfits aren't even the kind that a Saloon Girl of the period would wear. It's what a Saloon Girl from a Hollywood movie might wear... Or maybe a burlesque actress pretending to be a Saloon Girl.
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Originally Posted by Garent
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Positron has a lot of good ideas that sort of get ridiculed on by the rest of the team. Also, the way to get around that is to not dress the female thugs like they are about to start their shift at Joe's Skin Shack.
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Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
The thing that makes these Underwear Packs more irritating is the line Positron gave at the Player Summit for why the devs were wary of allowing full Mastermind minion custombility: they were afraid of the possibility of people making a Thugs mastermind with gun toting bikini girls.
I mean, seriously? You guys talk about "We don't want Masterminds with armies of strippers" but then give players stuff like this. One of these things is not like the other. |
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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Example: Rocket Girls from the Destroyers enemy group
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Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Positron has a lot of good ideas that sort of get ridiculed on by the rest of the team. Also, the way to get around that is to not dress the female thugs like they are about to start their shift at Joe's Skin Shack.
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Exactly! Even the resistance girls are a nice example.
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Originally Posted by Firemoth
Example: Rocket Girls from the Destroyers enemy group
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http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Chalking the gunslinger pack up as yet another instance of the devs going off the rails lately. I'm really disappointed in the course they've been plotting for a while now, which is really sad. Freedom started off so well and the next few months is a really awful time to keep doing stuff like this.
It doesn't seem likely that they'll bother to do anything at this point, but the initial releases of stuff and only haphazardly responding to player outcry is really not a good way to retain VIPs through the MMO release storm of the next few months. I mean, obviously they seem to realize this, considering we've gotten two gimmicks to try and keep us subbed through the spring in the past couple of weeks... Just too bad they don't feel like addressing some pretty longstanding, common complaints.
Okay really? Really? Had to start a whole thread about this when it was going on in the Feedback Thread?
And personally, I think the trend arguement fails on the Steampunk, unless you're just going "I want the jackets!"
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I think with any player customization option in a game like this there will always be a few people who will try to abuse it. It's a fact of life as much as it is when every kid eventually decides it'd be fun to look up the "naughty" words in a dictionary.|
Originally Posted by Firemoth
I'm so glad someone else heard that after I'd asked the question, it was so out there that I was almost sure I'd imagined it.
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But I honestly don't see "MM bikini squads" being any more of a wide spread problem as the ERPers in Pocket D or any other player "abusing" the current costume creator to try to make nude or overtly slutty costumes. There will always be a handful of people doing that regardless of any safegaurds the Devs come up with and as always if people take it too far you simply report them. Case closed.
Basically it's the sheer hypocrisy I can't stand from people like Positron. If "MM bikini squads" would really be such a problem why is he turning such a repeatedly blind eye to all the hyper-sexy costume items they are allowing for player characters? Again the situation is simply laughable, and not in a good way.
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Honestly, stuff like that doesn't bother me. And I'm okay with some of the female characters wearing what's more or less a super-bathing suit. You have to remember that superhero costumes are evolved from the circus and carnival performer outfits of the early and mid 20th century (Superman's costume is basically a 1930s carnival strongman's) as well as bathing suits. This is a genre where people often wear their underwear on the outside and pants are optional.|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Let's not forget the suggestive Silver Mantis dialouge.
Before combat: Scorpion is going to owe me a lot for babysitting this nerd. Combat start: C'mon, heroes! I'll take you all at once! At 75% Life: Mmmmm! You hurt me so good! At 50% Life: The pain! The anger! Yes! You really know how to treat a girl! At 25% Life: Oh yes! OH YES! This is a battle! Defeated: That's it... I'm spent Take the code, you earned it. |
That, and Silver Mantis is an insane body mod junkie who makes every one feel like they need a shower after beating her up. She's also a rather isolated case. I think the only other character anything like that is Dominatrix, who's got an entirely different kind of crazy going on.
I have no issue with some outfits being sexy or attractive. Supers of both genders are flamboyant (again: circus outfits). My issue is with the inexplicable decisions to focus on making more and more sexy outfits for the girls at the cost of alternatives and the double standard of "no female minions" vs. "here's an outfit where you'll need to break the laws of physics to keep it on." I mean, we have how many corsets and bits of lacy underwear now?
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Well in all fairness topics like this have boiled up for years in all different parts of the forums and the Devs never seem to notice regardless. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Okay really? Really? Had to start a whole thread about this when it was going on in the Feedback Thread?
And personally, I think the trend arguement fails on the Steampunk, unless you're just going "I want the jackets!" |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Okay really? Really? Had to start a whole thread about this when it was going on in the Feedback Thread?
And personally, I think the trend arguement fails on the Steampunk, unless you're just going "I want the jackets!" |
The dev's don't read the Feedback threads, obviously.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Yes, actually, because the Feedback threads seem to get nothing but ignored these days. There is no sign of Dev viewing or even interest once they've been thrown up, let alone any actual commenting.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Okay really? Really? Had to start a whole thread about this when it was going on in the Feedback Thread?
And personally, I think the trend arguement fails on the Steampunk, unless you're just going "I want the jackets!" |
If they HAVE looked at them, well, NONE of it seems to have made it in game, another pretty solid sign of being ignored I would think.
Sure, Steampunk women do have a slight tendency to look a little more burlesque, perhaps. But no long jackets at all and no waistcoats? In Steampunk? Not a great understanding of the genre there. Not every woman in Steampunk wears a corset.
It's an annoying general trend that's becoming more and more prevalent, and the Devs still haven't seemed to have cottoned on that a lot of people are not best pleased with that.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I AM disappointed in this pack for much of Techbot Alpha's reasons, but not angry. Despite my efforts to make (mostly) less-trampy female outfits, my own experiences put us in the minority. For the last 7 years, its been clear that most players have been ignoring the more modest female costume options for things more... revealing. I'll admit to having a few short-skirted options for my female crimefighters, too... and if there are more "good looking" trampy costume parts than modest ones, that plays a part in user selection, too, but I still get the feel that even with all these options accounted for, the overall playerbase leans toward the same tramp-heroine depictions that dominate the comic industry.
I've resigned myself to that reality.
The devs just develop toward what sells.
I'd had great plans for a classic female gunslinger- very much a female version of Techbot_Alpha's male gunslinger outfit. Obviously, I'll be waiting longer.
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Still, the benefit of a market-based system is you CAN develop for niches if those niches are large enough to sustain themselves. If a costume option has the potential to more than pay for its development costs, then its a viable development option, and you could even justify expanding staffing to cover it. (Or subcontract out to freelancers / between-work artists / modders aspiring for an industry break on a per-project basis )
I STRONGLY suggest the devs take a chance here. Take the time to make a female gunslinger variant similar to the male's and put it on the market.
- DO NOT put it in this pack.
- See how well it sells by itself. (I'd buy it.)
- See if the market demand justifies the extra development cost (I bet it does).
- If it does, then plan accordingly in the future.
- If it doesn't, then I guess keep giving the players what they are willing to pay for and I'll glumly keep working with the legacy pieces that have become standard fare for my characters. It gives me more Paragon Points for other things, I guess...
Just give us a chance to prove that market demand IS there for something less trampy.
Sweet, I can make a male gunslinger AND a female hoe using only one costume pack. 
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You know, I've played on a few different servers. Mostly Virtue and Victory to be sure, but I've been on Guardian, Justice, Freedom, Infinity and Exalted...|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Let's not forget the suggestive Silver Mantis dialouge.
Before combat: Scorpion is going to owe me a lot for babysitting this nerd. Combat start: C'mon, heroes! I'll take you all at once! At 75% Life: Mmmmm! You hurt me so good! At 50% Life: The pain! The anger! Yes! You really know how to treat a girl! At 25% Life: Oh yes! OH YES! This is a battle! Defeated: That's it... I'm spent Take the code, you earned it. |
This type of character is actually pretty common in the game by the plyaers
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The BrandX Collection
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To be clear I actually don't have much problem with the "sexy" being in this game. Clearly the Devs don't either at least as far as player costume items go. That's why it makes things that much more ironically silly when the Devs decide to stick to the excuse that things like MM female pets would be "crossing the line". I think the Devs have already established that they really have no problem crossing that line already. |
Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
Honestly, stuff like that doesn't bother me. And I'm okay with some of the female characters wearing what's more or less a super-bathing suit. You have to remember that superhero costumes are evolved from the circus and carnival performer outfits of the early and mid 20th century (Superman's costume is basically a 1930s carnival strongman's) as well as bathing suits. This is a genre where people often wear their underwear on the outside and pants are optional.
That, and Silver Mantis is an insane body mod junkie who makes every one feel like they need a shower after beating her up. She's also a rather isolated case. I think the only other character anything like that is Dominatrix, who's got an entirely different kind of crazy going on. I have no issue with some outfits being sexy or attractive. Supers of both genders are flamboyant (again: circus outfits). My issue is with the inexplicable decisions to focus on making more and more sexy outfits for the girls at the cost of alternatives and the double standard of "no female minions" vs. "here's an outfit where you'll need to break the laws of physics to keep it on." I mean, we have how many corsets and bits of lacy underwear now? |
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This sums it up nicely. I still don't buy the 'oh, but if we give females both options then male/huge will get less!', not when all the cool stuff goes to those two anyway, and the 'no, males can't use any of the female pieces'. Personally not my thing but, hey, people have requested it a lot in the past. *shrug*
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Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
I have no issue with some outfits being sexy or attractive. Supers of both genders are flamboyant (again: circus outfits). My issue is with the inexplicable decisions to focus on making more and more sexy outfits for the girls at the cost of alternatives and the double standard of "no female minions" vs. "here's an outfit where you'll need to break the laws of physics to keep it on." I mean, we have how many corsets and bits of lacy underwear now? |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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To be really fair, how they look isn't the problem, as far as I can tell.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
To be clear I actually don't have much problem with the "sexy" being in this game. Clearly the Devs don't either at least as far as player costume items go. That's why it makes things that much more ironically silly when the Devs decide to stick to the excuse that things like MM female pets would be "crossing the line". I think the Devs have already established that they really have no problem crossing that line already.
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What players will 'do' (or pretend to do) with sexy MMs is more likely the issue.
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And, now as always, chat-logs and 'Report' are available to every player. There IS no problem here that cannot be solved with the tools already available. Anything else is just some idiot screaming 'Think of the children!!'
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Originally Posted by Chyll
To be really fair, how they look isn't the problem, as far as I can tell.
What players will 'do' (or pretend to do) with sexy MMs is more likely the issue. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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That line....I have crossed it. (In the opposite direction)|
Originally Posted by Lothic
To be clear I actually don't have much problem with the "sexy" being in this game. Clearly the Devs don't either at least as far as player costume items go. That's why it makes things that much more ironically silly when the Devs decide to stick to the excuse that things like MM female pets would be "crossing the line". I think the Devs have already established that they really have no problem crossing that line already.
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Yes and as I pointed out a couple of posts ago there will always be a handful of people who'd abuse it and those people will simply get reported like anyone else who does stuff the mods don't like. There would be no "DOOOOM" over this - a few people would go wild with it for a week then it would pass just like everything else does. *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by Chyll
To be really fair, how they look isn't the problem, as far as I can tell.
What players will 'do' (or pretend to do) with sexy MMs is more likely the issue. |
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It's kind of sad that the two main arguments AGAINST the female MM stuff are two things that already happen in game, and that already have ways to be solved...IN GAME.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Yes and as I pointed out a couple of posts ago there will always be a handful of people who'd abuse it and those people will simply get reported like anyone else who does stuff the mods don't like. There would be no "DOOOOM" over this - a few people would go wild with it for a week then it would pass just like everything else does. *shrugs*
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Actually, no I don't think it's a trend, and you also manipulated the Witch Booster to get what you want on it.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Yes, actually, because the Feedback threads seem to get nothing but ignored these days. There is no sign of Dev viewing or even interest once they've been thrown up, let alone any actual commenting.
If they HAVE looked at them, well, NONE of it seems to have made it in game, another pretty solid sign of being ignored I would think. Sure, Steampunk women do have a slight tendency to look a little more burlesque, perhaps. But no long jackets at all and no waistcoats? In Steampunk? Not a great understanding of the genre there. Not every woman in Steampunk wears a corset. It's an annoying general trend that's becoming more and more prevalent, and the Devs still haven't seemed to have cottoned on that a lot of people are not best pleased with that. |
Take those witch top pieces and use the TIGHT option. That way you don't show all that skin you're saying they're doing.
Barbarian wasn't much different from the males, in that they had nothing but show skin pieces as well.
Martial Arts, IDF, Vanguard, Science, Clockwork, Cyborg, Mutant, ect...ect.
But I will agree on one thing, the female outfit doesn't feel Gunslinger. This I agree with.
Still, just retreading the Feedback thread and what makes anyone think this will get more dev attention?
I bet it gets the same dev attention.
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The BrandX Collection
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Maybe among certain players. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I think it's been well established (at least among players) that the "female MM pets could be considered sexist" argument has been dismissed as ridiculous.
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I'm sorry I don't have my Positron quote with me, but it's true. It's to head off prostitution.
Also, I will throw my vote in with a huge discrepancy in costume parity as well.
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I mean, seriously? You guys talk about "We don't want Masterminds with armies of strippers" but then give players stuff like this.
One of these things is not like the other.