PVP Help (what are some good solid Melee builds)
By
BattleWraith,
Posted on: 2011-11-25 24:40 in Everything about PvP
it's best to not play a melee.
it makes you bad.
KM/WP will be fine for any zone pvp.
Scrapper>Tank for dps
Tank> Scrapper for Survivability
LoL Brute unless you like to fight club then Brute> both
I don't have a ton of time nor a build for you but I am more than willing to pm back and forth with you with what I do know when it comes to twitch mechanics in pvp well as general knowledge. Post below what your looking to spend on a build, that will make a big difference in what builds people post as builds run from 500 mill to over 10 bill easy. Also make sure you get all the Accolades(click me) that give you stat increases and extra powers such as Eye of The Magus and Geas of the Kind Ones . Those can easily make the difference in a win/lose or draw.
@-Kurgain
-FAP-Renegades-Whirligig-Velocity-Bedlam
If you are absolutely set on Melee, which I would not reccomend because we already have a surplus of bad Scrappers in zone, I would go KM/Elec or KM/Regen. WP is one of the worst secondaries for PvP Scrappers.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
I would agree with KM/elec or KM/regen for zone play. I might also toss KM/fire in there for the double build up.
If you are just going to ask for fiteklub type of arena matches, ts, no insp (I think those are the 'normal' rules, but I don't fiteklub so I really don't know) KM/WP would be pretty decent as it would give you a ton of hp and pretty high regen- again I'm guessing about this because I don't really fiteklub, and I think if I did I would go KM/shield.... maybe?
Solid PvP Build =/ Melee
The only thing you could make a case for would be something like a KM/Elec scrapper running Taunt/Web Nades and CS'ing on spikes. (KM/Fire would probably work too)
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KM Scrappers are very good in zone, and probably could be viable in an 8v8 lineup based around them. The stigma against melee is probably what is coloring your view on this, and me to some degree. Melee is pretty boring to play as and play against for a lot of people, but KM does a lot of damage. As for other Scrapper primaries, I would completely agree. KM is the only truly good Scrapper set, and that's one reason why it seems so powerful... The rest are just really bad, unless we are talking fightclub.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Solid PvP Build =/ Melee
The only thing you could make a case for would be something like a KM/Elec scrapper running Taunt/Web Nades and CS'ing on spikes. (KM/Fire would probably work too) |
Also, in terms of KM/Fire, I know that some people who have made them and played them have told me that the tradeoff for the small amount of extra damage you get from FE (And yes, it is fairly small due to DR) is not worth sacrificing a better defense that you would get with Elec or Regen. Either way, KM is KM, you will still get plenty of kills no matter what secondary you go with.
OH, and one more thing, Scrapper WP scales really badly in comparison to Brutes or Tanks. The benefit of being a big bag of HP with Brute/Tank WPs is much less of a factor on Scrappers, and you are also missing a dedicated self heal. The issue with Shield Scrappers is similar, in that they don't reap the other benefits of Shield other then the defense like Tanks do (Higher HP, fairly decent resistance)
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Ok well for now I went with a KM/Regen scrapper (After looking around I already had a KM/WP at level 50)
So after reading through the endless posts I have another question: Alot of people will say "Use such and such for zone play but use such and such for arena/Fight club"... What would make the difference?
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Building for 1v1 vs. zone vs. 8v8 can mean very different builds. It varies depending on what build you're talking about, but there is a pretty big difference between them. I can't place a finger on what exactly is the difference, as most of my builds are geared towards 8v8 or just general team play. I don't build 1v1 toons or strictly zone toons, although 8v8 toons probably are the best arena builds for zone.|
Originally Posted by cowboybuckTN
Ok well for now I went with a KM/Regen scrapper (After looking around I already had a KM/WP at level 50)
So after reading through the endless posts I have another question: Alot of people will say "Use such and such for zone play but use such and such for arena/Fight club"... What would make the difference? |
The builds that require the most in-depth tweaking are 1v1 builds... 1v1s are extremely build dependent, so naturally an optimal build for 1v1 is very important if you plan on being a duelist. 8v8 and zone builds are a little more forgiving in terms of how much of a perfectionist you need to be about the builds.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
[QUOTE=The Katalyst;4004996]
Also, in terms of KM/Fire, I know that some people who have made them and played them have told me that the tradeoff for the small amount of extra damage you get from FE (And yes, it is fairly small due to DR) is not worth sacrificing a better defense that you would get with Elec or Regen. Either way, KM is KM, you will still get plenty of kills no matter what secondary you go with.
[QUOTE]
You don't use both both "build up" powers at the same time. Just like you wouldn't hit aim and build up on your blaster at the same time. you alternate them, to keep your damage output as high as possible.
I think the trade off of defense (I'm guessing you mean, the resistance) between fire and elec is pretty minimal. The only nice thing is elec gets a little more psi resist and has a t9 to cap you out (the t9 does have a psi hole) if you chose to take it.
I think the OP will do fine with a km/regen in zone play, or duels.
[QUOTE=The_Masque;4005854][QUOTE=The Katalyst;4004996]
Also, in terms of KM/Fire, I know that some people who have made them and played them have told me that the tradeoff for the small amount of extra damage you get from FE (And yes, it is fairly small due to DR) is not worth sacrificing a better defense that you would get with Elec or Regen. Either way, KM is KM, you will still get plenty of kills no matter what secondary you go with.
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The survivability of Elec is much higher then FA. You also don't get a real BU in KM anyways, you get power siphon, which in a melee duel can be up most of the time. FE also doesn't give any accuracy or tohit bonus, and is only REALLY good for fire damage. The recharge is also literally twice as long as a normal Scrapper BU power, so alternating isn't as much of an option as you might think. It does do +100% damage for non-fire attacks, 125% for fire attacks, but only lasts 10 seconds for non-fire attacks. Even if you aren't stacking FE and BU, that 100% will be heavily DR'd even on it's own. It's not as worth it as you might think, thought I can see why you might think so.|
You don't use both both "build up" powers at the same time. Just like you wouldn't hit aim and build up on your blaster at the same time. you alternate them, to keep your damage output as high as possible. I think the trade off of defense (I'm guessing you mean, the resistance) between fire and elec is pretty minimal. The only nice thing is elec gets a little more psi resist and has a t9 to cap you out (the t9 does have a psi hole) if you chose to take it. I think the OP will do fine with a km/regen in zone play, or duels. |
If you already have a KM/fire, you may as well just use that, because it's still a KM, and even though it's not as good as elec or regen, it's definitely still viable and useable. If this were pre-i13, I could see using FA to do massive amounts of damage in a short window with lucky crits or something, but it's not that effective anymore.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Been away for a bit but figured Id see a lot of melee types claiming SS/regin Brutes...did they not take off?
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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/fire scrappers would be viable cause of earth/fire dom teams.
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Originally Posted by The Katalyst
KM Scrappers are very good in zone, and probably could be viable in an 8v8 lineup based around them. The stigma against melee is probably what is coloring your view on this, and me to some degree. Melee is pretty boring to play as and play against for a lot of people, but KM does a lot of damage. As for other Scrapper primaries, I would completely agree. KM is the only truly good Scrapper set, and that's one reason why it seems so powerful... The rest are just really bad, unless we are talking fightclub.
Also, in terms of KM/Fire, I know that some people who have made them and played them have told me that the tradeoff for the small amount of extra damage you get from FE (And yes, it is fairly small due to DR) is not worth sacrificing a better defense that you would get with Elec or Regen. Either way, KM is KM, you will still get plenty of kills no matter what secondary you go with. |
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elec or invuln are still better.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
/fire scrappers would be viable cause of earth/fire dom teams.
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/elec and /invuln deals with fire damage better than a /fire Scrapper?|
Originally Posted by recalx
elec or invuln are still better.
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and what about SS/Regins? Some wacky game mechanic make them not as good as I thought they would be?
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
/elec and /invuln deals with fire damage better than a /fire Scrapper?
and what about SS/Regins? Some wacky game mechanic make them not as good as I thought they would be? |
earth/fire spikes aren't 100% fire.
and invuln definitely does (dull pain, wdup?)
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Mostly fire though right? And I like DP, but I also like /fire's fat, 10 sec recharging heal too. I dont play melee toons but seems like /FA would deal with a /fire dom or fire/ blaster better than /Elec or /Invuln scrapper.
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Originally Posted by recalx
earth/fire spikes aren't 100% fire.
and invuln definitely does (dull pain, wdup?) |
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
if you're relying on healing flames for anything other than to top you off while you're not the spike target anymore, you either have some really bad emps with you or are facing a team of downies.
popping greens > healing flames.
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emp + dull pain + a tray of greens + resist elements > healing flames + fire resists + greens + emp
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Healing flames doesn't really make up for the lack of survivability outside of that heal... FA can be really good on Tanks with a good build, mostly because of the extra HP making that 10 second rech heal a much bigger deal. My KM is invuln, didn't like it at first but I found it to be fairly survivable, and the way Unstop's crash works, if the recovery ticks are convenient enough, which they often are, you will be left with a small amount of end after the crash, and you can just pop DP right after. Unstop doesn't do a recovery crash, so sometimes some of your toggles will stay on also.|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Mostly fire though right? And I like DP, but I also like /fire's fat, 10 sec recharging heal too. I dont play melee toons but seems like /FA would deal with a /fire dom or fire/ blaster better than /Elec or /Invuln scrapper.
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Unstop on Scrappers is not something to underestimate, you get a very noticeable boost from it, especially when running DP at the same time. Running around pissing people off with webnade spam is also entertaining.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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Some of them still drop like a Blaster with no toggles against Earth/Fire's.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
/fire scrappers would be viable cause of earth/fire dom teams.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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I'm really confused by your thinking here Kat.|
Originally Posted by The Katalyst
The survivability of Elec is much higher then FA. You also don't get a real BU in KM anyways, you get power siphon, which in a melee duel can be up most of the time. FE also doesn't give any accuracy or tohit bonus, and is only REALLY good for fire damage. The recharge is also literally twice as long as a normal Scrapper BU power, so alternating isn't as much of an option as you might think. It does do +100% damage for non-fire attacks, 125% for fire attacks, but only lasts 10 seconds for non-fire attacks. Even if you aren't stacking FE and BU, that 100% will be heavily DR'd even on it's own. It's not as worth it as you might think, thought I can see why you might think so.
If you already have a KM/fire, you may as well just use that, because it's still a KM, and even though it's not as good as elec or regen, it's definitely still viable and useable. If this were pre-i13, I could see using FA to do massive amounts of damage in a short window with lucky crits or something, but it's not that effective anymore. |
You state that /elec has much higher survivability then /fiery aura:
If we look at resistances:
Fiery Aura with Fire sheild, Plasma shield and tough each 3 slotted with resist IOs (lvl 50) would have the following (pre-DR):
S/L: 63.5%
nrg/Neg: 63.5%
Fire: 75%
Cold: 39.7%
Toxic:27.8%
Psi: 63.5%
Elec with Charged, Conductive, Static, and Tough:
S/L: 69.4%
Nrg: 75%
neg: 51.6%
fire/cold: 69.4%
toxic: 27.8%
psi: 69.4%
The difference between most resists are in the 6% range with elec being higher on (most) of the more common pvp damage types. However if we look at the DR:
Resistances:
Code:
Base A B C D MM 20% 17% 18% 18% 18% 16% 25% 20% 23% 22% 21% 18% 30% 23% 27% 26% 25% 21% 35% 26% 30% 29% 28% 22% 40% 29% 34% 32% 31% 24% 45% 31% 37% 35% 34% 25% 50% 33% 41% 38% 37% 27% 55% 35% 44% 40% 39% 28% 60% 36% 47% 43% 41% 29% 65% 38% 50% 45% 43% 29% 70% 39% 52% 47% 45% 30% 75% 40% 55% 49% 47% 30% 80% 41% 57% 51% 48% 31% 85% 42% 59% 53% 50% 31% 90% 43% 62% 54% 51% 32%
B = Scrap/Stalk/Brute
C = Tanker
D = HEAT/VEAT
MM = Masterminds
We see that the difference between 69.4% and 63.5% would be the difference between ~37.5% and 38.7%. That is not "a lot" by any means.
Also Elec takes an additional shield to reach these numbers (4 compared to 3 with fiery aura).
Next lets look at the heals:
Healing flames:
Base recharge: 40sec
Heal: 24.99%
Energize:
Base recharge: 120sec
Heal: 24.99%
+regen 100% for 30 secs
So they both have the same base heal, fiery aura is 3 times as fast but elec gives regen for 30 secs (and an end discount ~60%).
So from that I would still say that elec is NOT far surpassing fiery aura as you seem to be stating.
As far as the "build up" power and cycling:
Power siphon allows you to "build up" damage via small attacks leading up to your concentrated strike. Yes alone it adds only +to-hit but it is the +special that we would be talking about here.
The effect lasts 20 secs and has a base recharge of 120secs. Compared to a typical build up which lasts 10secs and has a base recharge of 90 secs. So thats double the duration for 1/3 longer recharge. Not that, this really matters as we are only talking about KM. Not KM vs anything else.
I would still cycle power siphon and Fiery embrace for the following reason:
+damage does get dr'd as you state. However I think you might be mistaken on how much it gets DR'd.
Most Strength buffs including damage:
Code:
95% 80% 125% 100% 150% 115% 175% 128% 200% 141% 225% 152% 250% 162% 275% 172% 300% 181% 350% 197% 400% 212% 450% 226% 500% 239%
I still think it would be better to alternate the two- power siphon only lasts 20 secs (you aren't going to perma that) and fiery embrace also lasts 20secs (base recharge 180 secs). So it does cycle pretty nicely.
I've had this discussion many times on vent about fiery aura vs elec and which would be better. I actually play elec but not because its 'superior' to fiery aura. I play elec because of the t9 which really is only useful in duels and maybe some team arena matches.
The real trade off here is damage+faster heal (fiery aura) vs a t9 (elec). Which in the end is pretty much a wash in my book, hence the reason I'm not really buying that elec is superior to fiery aura.
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Some of everything does.
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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
Some of them still drop like a Blaster with no toggles against Earth/Fire's.
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Gotcha guys and thanks, didnt realize /FAs were so bad compared to the other secondaries performance wise on Scrappers.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Quote:
I'll admit I don't know all the ins and outs of DR, but in my experience for whatever reason, Elec tends to fair better then FA in PvP. I've seen both builds played in zone and arena, and Elec seems to have the upper hand in most cases. I'm not 100% sure why this is, so I figured DR had something to do with it. It may just be that all the FA builds I've seen played that I can remember weren't very good, but regardless that is my experience. I do tend to draw from my experience in-game as opposed to math in most cases, but if the math supports the experience that always helps. In this case I suppose it is more likely that it's just coincedence.
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
I'm really confused by your thinking here Kat.
You state that /elec has much higher survivability then /fiery aura: If we look at resistances: Fiery Aura with Fire sheild, Plasma shield and tough each 3 slotted with resist IOs (lvl 50) would have the following (pre-DR): S/L: 63.5% nrg/Neg: 63.5% Fire: 75% Cold: 39.7% Toxic:27.8% Psi: 63.5% Elec with Charged, Conductive, Static, and Tough: S/L: 69.4% Nrg: 75% neg: 51.6% fire/cold: 69.4% toxic: 27.8% psi: 69.4% The difference between most resists are in the 6% range with elec being higher on (most) of the more common pvp damage types. However if we look at the DR: Resistances: Code:
Base A B C D MM 20% 17% 18% 18% 18% 16% 25% 20% 23% 22% 21% 18% 30% 23% 27% 26% 25% 21% 35% 26% 30% 29% 28% 22% 40% 29% 34% 32% 31% 24% 45% 31% 37% 35% 34% 25% 50% 33% 41% 38% 37% 27% 55% 35% 44% 40% 39% 28% 60% 36% 47% 43% 41% 29% 65% 38% 50% 45% 43% 29% 70% 39% 52% 47% 45% 30% 75% 40% 55% 49% 47% 30% 80% 41% 57% 51% 48% 31% 85% 42% 59% 53% 50% 31% 90% 43% 62% 54% 51% 32% B = Scrap/Stalk/Brute C = Tanker D = HEAT/VEAT MM = Masterminds We see that the difference between 69.4% and 63.5% would be the difference between ~37.5% and 38.7%. That is not "a lot" by any means. Also Elec takes an additional shield to reach these numbers (4 compared to 3 with fiery aura). Next lets look at the heals: Healing flames: Base recharge: 40sec Heal: 24.99% Energize: Base recharge: 120sec Heal: 24.99% +regen 100% for 30 secs So they both have the same base heal, fiery aura is 3 times as fast but elec gives regen for 30 secs (and an end discount ~60%). So from that I would still say that elec is NOT far surpassing fiery aura as you seem to be stating. As far as the "build up" power and cycling: Power siphon allows you to "build up" damage via small attacks leading up to your concentrated strike. Yes alone it adds only +to-hit but it is the +special that we would be talking about here. The effect lasts 20 secs and has a base recharge of 120secs. Compared to a typical build up which lasts 10secs and has a base recharge of 90 secs. So thats double the duration for 1/3 longer recharge. Not that, this really matters as we are only talking about KM. Not KM vs anything else. I would still cycle power siphon and Fiery embrace for the following reason: +damage does get dr'd as you state. However I think you might be mistaken on how much it gets DR'd. Most Strength buffs including damage: Code:
95% 80% 125% 100% 150% 115% 175% 128% 200% 141% 225% 152% 250% 162% 275% 172% 300% 181% 350% 197% 400% 212% 450% 226% 500% 239% I still think it would be better to alternate the two- power siphon only lasts 20 secs (you aren't going to perma that) and fiery embrace also lasts 20secs (base recharge 180 secs). So it does cycle pretty nicely. I've had this discussion many times on vent about fiery aura vs elec and which would be better. I actually play elec but not because its 'superior' to fiery aura. I play elec because of the t9 which really is only useful in duels and maybe some team arena matches. The real trade off here is damage+faster heal (fiery aura) vs a t9 (elec). Which in the end is pretty much a wash in my book, hence the reason I'm not really buying that elec is superior to fiery aura. |
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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Nope.
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Mostly fire though right?
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To whom it may concern:
I love PvP but can never seem to get a good solid build going. Im looking for the best advice on a scrapper build or some kine of a solo build. Right now I am looking at KM/WP but not sure on a solid build for those sets, or if I should take some other sets to begin with. My goal is as much damage as I can throw with as much survivability as I can get (Well duh I guess)..
here are a few questions:
1. Is KM/WP a good set? I was in Sirens the other day and someone threw up an arena match and he was KM/something but I never caught the whole build. Long story short that person was the last one standing...
2, is it better to go Tank, Scrapper or Brute? I play mostly Melee toons, and while stalkers can be nice I seem to have hang ups on being able to run away after I attack someone.
3, I dont want to seem lazy but I could sit here for 3 weeks in mids and still not know what the heck I am doing with numbers. Would love to have a good build for Sirens (since I seem to be drawn to that zone) and one for full level 50 play / RV zone play.
4. Also are there any groups out there that will help PvP Noobs (or in my case hevily experienced failures lol) learn the ropes so to speak?
Thanks in advance...
@tncowboybuck