Proposal: Hybrid Archetype
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-11-23 19:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
While limiting the number of sets you could choose from would be a great idea, i'd like to think that limiting between Tags would be enough. Both for great sets of powers that would bring the characters more in line with some of the power sets we see from the in-game NPCs, but it would also allow for sufficient 'power set Suicide' if you didn't focus a bit. One of the things I did do to limit that was requiring the tier 1 power... so, for Mucho-Kin to take Fire-Breath from the fiery assault, he'd have to take Flares at least...|
Originally Posted by IzzySoft
Thats not a bad idea... but... there has to be a restriction on the assortment.. much like only being able to pick powers from just 4 power pools, even if you need one power from the 5th power pool.
Same thing here! There has to be a limit to just 2 powersets!  Cant have a 3rd, even if the Tag matches another power from a 3rd powerset! hehe Then you'ld have a Franken-Set! A Big no no!  |
It would make for some very interesting builds to say the least... but, it would leave the Archetype in place. Incorporating a 'Hybrid' archetype would, in the long run make all the other Archetypes obsolete, i fear. In truth, either one of these ideas has room to make some ung-dly over-powered characters... so i doubt either would ever acutally see the light of day
The Trinity AT can have its own Icon look like a Pyramid i suppose, or something that has 3 distinguishing marks.. 3 stars perhaps in a Triangular configuration, one star at each end?!? I dont know. Only by looking at the players Info can you tell what it really is.. which powers were chosen... much like for a VEAT atm.
Quote:
Well, its either this, or keep coming up with new Powersets every 3 to 5 months! |
Originally Posted by Bright_Tempest
...so i doubt either would ever acutally see the light of day
|
With this.. it will entertain vets for much longer (I would say 1 to 2 years more), which are already VIP monthly subscribers.
Only thing is, i dont think we would have enough Toon Slots on a server for all the different combinations we would create!
And Yes.. you would be Locked in from Toon Creation time to just 3 powersets. Respec would not allow for changing a powerset.. just which powers from those 3 powersets.
Quote:
Read what he wrote more carefully. He didn't say Scrappers would take Super Strength as their bonus bit, he said ALL SCRAPPERS WOULD BE DELETED AND REMADE AS BRUTES, who would then take Super Strength.|
Quote:
|
And he's probably right.
Great Wall of Prophecy, reveal to us God's will that we may blindly obey.
Free us from thought and responsibility
We shall read things off of you.
Then do them
Your words guide us.
We're dumb
Quote:
Reads much more like a suggestion with some conviction behind it.|
Originally Posted by IzzySoft
Cant say.
Wasnt part of that discussion! I haven't really frequented the forum much!This is just a wish AT! |
Balance an fire/cold-thermal corruptor. A dark-rad/sonic. A fire/time-traps. A fire-ss/shield scrapper.
Even if you only allowed for power choices in the same tier, I think this would be a horrible amount of work to balance. The power sets are balanced internally first before they are balanced against each other. Without rage for example, super strength is a pretty sub par set.
I would much rather see completely new power sets than an AT that rehashes what we have already.
Quote:
I see. My bad. |
Originally Posted by Matuse
Read what he wrote more carefully. He didn't say Scrappers would take Super Strength as their bonus bit, he said ALL SCRAPPERS WOULD BE DELETED AND REMADE AS BRUTES, who would then take Super Strength.
And he's probably right. |
Still, i think i covered this bit in a previous post... about there being +ToHit and +Dmg Caps! So Build Up + Rage would not be at full strength! they would be diminished. Think of it like having Build Up being like Two 50 Accuracy Invention IO's in a power, and Rage then being the 3rd 50 Accuracy Invention IO. the benefits of the 3rd 50 Accuracy Invention IO is diminished because of the Cap! Yes!!!! Thats right!!! Allot of people Would NOT take Build Up + Rage in this case. Instead.. they would get another more beneficial power! I would!
If people want even that little bit of more +Dmg +ToHit at the price of one less Damaging Power, i say go for it! You'll have to wait for those powers to recharge longer... so that extra ency bit of +Dmg goes out the window (Pooof!), while the rest of the Damaging powers recharge!
FYI... This is all unrelated to IO Sets, btw! A powerset needs to stand on its own even without IO Sets in the build!
If the build becomes Ubber only after IO Sets are put in... thats Fair Game! Its ok to make new and Free2Play players a bit jealous!
I'll bite. I've demonstrated just how stupidly powerful you can make things if you were allowed to combine sets before.
Brute:
Street Justice/Super Strength
1) Initial Strike
2) Heavy Blow
3) Sweeping Cross
4) Combat Readiness
5) KO Blow
6) Taunt
7) Rage
8) Shin Breaker
9) Foot Stomp
Fiery Aura/Shield Defense
1) Deflection
2) Battle Agility
3) Healing Flames
4) Active Defense
5) Against All Odds
6) Phalanx Fighting
7) Burn
8) Fiery Embrace
9) Rise of the Phoenix
See the problem there? Those 2 combinations would be insanely powerful, and you would have to nerf the individual powers into near uselessness to make it even in the neighborhood of balanced.
And that's one of hundreds of overpowered combinations. The powers in the game are not balanced in a vacuum, they are balanced by what else is available in the powersets they are found in. Rage and Foot Stomp Being available with a fast animating fury builder chain (Street Justice powers) means you get the AoE power of Super Strength, and Rage, and it eliminates SS's weak spot, which is it's single target attack chain.
Then when you add the possibility of having Against All Odds and Fiery Embrace available in the same set, with Rage fueling it as well? Oh, and a damage aura, Burn, the ease of soft-capping Shield Defense, and the self-heal of Fire?
No, that wouldn't be overpowered at all.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
The OP should try Champions Online I think. It will give the flexibility they seem to want with the Gold (or whatever they call it...paying) subscription level. You can mix and match to your hearts content.
It would be too dramatic a change for CoX to do it very free form, and anyway as others have pointed out CoX already has hybrids in most of the Villain ATs and the Epics. And many of the Hero ATs like Controllers can be played as hybrids in any case.
In short, it is a terrible idea IMO and as others have said would waste countless hours of dev time in order to make it so that you can have a more overpowered character when we can already have ridiculously overpowered characters.
One of the main faults of CO IMO was how free form it was. You could have all of your essential powers by the mid 20s and then after that you just rounded off things by cherry picking the standard overpowered buffs and additional abilities from different frameworks to make sure you were the ultimate tank/mage/buffer. This led to a homogenization of the powers because that was the only effective way to balance them.
AT setups (i.e., classes) actually tend to lead to a greater variety in powers and abilities because powersets only need to be balanced vs other powersets. If you have a free form system, you need to balance individual abilities against other individual abilities, and this is much harder and inevitably leads to a homogenization of the abilities. So if you are balancing powerset vs powerset, you can have a set with some real overpowered abilities in it and still have it roughly balanced against another set even if they are not balanced on an ability-by-ability basis. Witness lots of fighting games for examples of this.
This is something many free form people can't seem to get their head around: That by advocating a free form system they are also simultaneously actually giving themselves less options because things will get homogenized in the name of balance.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
I say the devs should look at this its a great idea
Quote:
Fortunately variations on this idea have been proposed at least five times in the past year alone, so they've has plenty of chances to look at it.|
Originally Posted by Evercry
I say the devs should look at this its a great idea
|
This proposal is actually one of the less fleshed-out proposals i've seen. Some of the other proposals have actually crunched out the numbers to a far greater degree. The problem, as has already been mentioned in this thread, is that powers are balanced against each other within a set far more than they are balanced against powers in other sets or by tier. So either every set available to the AT would have to be tweaked for balance (which would be an example of non-trivial computation) or the suggestion of adding lower caps would need to be used. Lower caps would mostly result in an AT that would have mediocre performance on teams in every role compared to every other AT.
It's not impossible to balance all the set combinations, but even just working with two types of sets, like ranged and buff/debuff, it would probably be more work than creating a new AT from scratch. Doing it for every AT would be as much work as creating the same number of ATs.
Kheldians were pretty much an early attempt at doing something like this by combining powers from multiple sets and ATs with some new powers thrown in, but were so heavily nerfed that Peacebringers are still average after multiple buffs to the AT. Warshades are actually quite powerful when played to their strengths, but their power is fairly situational.
Anyway, it's an interesting idea, but not likely to happen. We're far more likely to get a new AT with branching sets like the VEATS or new sets that allow you to change attack damage/debuff/mez types like Dual Pistols and Staff Melee do.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
PB's are not the same PB's your father use to fly.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
One problem with your suggestion is you combine two BU style powers into one set, which the idea wouldn't allow anyways.
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'll bite. I've demonstrated just how stupidly powerful you can make things if you were allowed to combine sets before.
Brute: Street Justice/Super Strength 1) Initial Strike 2) Heavy Blow 3) Sweeping Cross 4) Combat Readiness 5) KO Blow 6) Taunt 7) Rage 8) Shin Breaker 9) Foot Stomp Fiery Aura/Shield Defense 1) Deflection 2) Battle Agility 3) Healing Flames 4) Active Defense 5) Against All Odds 6) Phalanx Fighting 7) Burn 8) Fiery Embrace 9) Rise of the Phoenix See the problem there? Those 2 combinations would be insanely powerful, and you would have to nerf the individual powers into near uselessness to make it even in the neighborhood of balanced. And that's one of hundreds of overpowered combinations. The powers in the game are not balanced in a vacuum, they are balanced by what else is available in the powersets they are found in. Rage and Foot Stomp Being available with a fast animating fury builder chain (Street Justice powers) means you get the AoE power of Super Strength, and Rage, and it eliminates SS's weak spot, which is it's single target attack chain. Then when you add the possibility of having Against All Odds and Fiery Embrace available in the same set, with Rage fueling it as well? Oh, and a damage aura, Burn, the ease of soft-capping Shield Defense, and the self-heal of Fire? No, that wouldn't be overpowered at all. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Everyone mentions the HEATS and VEATS as hybrid ATs.
As such, with the coming of a new costume pack, and having the abilities already in place...maybe it's time for a new Epic AT!
The Gunslinger!
Dual Pistols/Street Justice/Martial Arts Hybrid Primary with Defensive Secondary Tree!
There we go! 
It's something we like and something that can easily be balanced and worth having, seeing as how I can make a Crab do close to the same thing without it being considered OP but not have Dual Pistol action!
Keep the Dual Pistol animations we have now, combine it with various hand to hand moves from Street Justice and Martial Arts, but lose the combo system of Street Justice, but allow the pistols to remain drawn during those hand to hand moves.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
That's because they are. They did a VERY good job on the VEATs. I have always thought the inherent weakness to Kheldians gimmick should have been scrapped after ED hit.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Everyone mentions the HEATS and VEATS as hybrid ATs.
|
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'll bite. I've demonstrated just how stupidly powerful you can make things if you were allowed to combine sets before.
Brute: Street Justice/Super Strength 1) Initial Strike 2) Heavy Blow 3) Sweeping Cross 4) Combat Readiness 5) KO Blow 6) Taunt 7) Rage 8) Shin Breaker 9) Foot Stomp Fiery Aura/Shield Defense 1) Deflection 2) Battle Agility 3) Healing Flames 4) Active Defense 5) Against All Odds 6) Phalanx Fighting 7) Burn 8) Fiery Embrace 9) Rise of the Phoenix See the problem there? Those 2 combinations would be insanely powerful, and you would have to nerf the individual powers into near uselessness to make it even in the neighborhood of balanced. And that's one of hundreds of overpowered combinations. The powers in the game are not balanced in a vacuum, they are balanced by what else is available in the powersets they are found in. Rage and Foot Stomp Being available with a fast animating fury builder chain (Street Justice powers) means you get the AoE power of Super Strength, and Rage, and it eliminates SS's weak spot, which is it's single target attack chain. Then when you add the possibility of having Against All Odds and Fiery Embrace available in the same set, with Rage fueling it as well? Oh, and a damage aura, Burn, the ease of soft-capping Shield Defense, and the self-heal of Fire? No, that wouldn't be overpowered at all. |
> Fiery Aura/Shield Defense
Ahhh No! Defense powersets are locked in! CoH does a Very Good job with the Defense sets! I wouldnt want to upset that delicate Balance!
> Then when you add the possibility of having Against All Odds and Fiery Embrace available in the same set...
Again.. No! Defense powersets are locked in. Delicate Balance!
> ..and the self-heal of Fire?
Fiery Aura is a Defense powerset. Those are locked in. But...if there was a melee based heal in the future, there would be a Max Value limit to +HP as well. More so if you had a Regen or a Willpower brute! Since those would be very close to the Max Value limit to start with.. so Healing Flames wound only give a very small heal.. instead of 300 Hp... its diminished to 80 HP, to fit the Max Value limit!
> ..Rage and Foot Stomp Being available with a fast animating fury builder..
Dont forget... Max Value limit exists for the Total amount of Dmg a toon can have. So, even if you take Footstomp with StJ Build Up + Rage, doesnt mean ur gonna kill everything one one Stomp! You're just thinking how it would be under the current conditions, not with the Max Value limit in place! Thats whats screwing things up in your perception of it becoming over-ubber!
Yes! It has the potential to be better than a toon with just 2 powersets, the whole point of this, but.. in the wrong hands.. it can be weaker.. and thats whats so great! Contless days trying to put together a toon with Just the Right powersets, as well as the right powers!
Plus, if you take rage and build up and whatever else.. you are greatly gimping your damage potential too.. it becomes less fun if you have to wait for a power to recharge.. at least the Higher damage ones, (if thats wats youre worried about.. out damaging others?). I think of it like Shield Charge or even Lightning Bolt... Sure its Superior Dmg... but its a gawd awful long recharge isnt worth the wait! If you ever played a Electric Melee / Shield Scrapper you would know that you feel less of a scrapper (Damage wise) while you wait for those 2 AoEs to recharge!
Quote:
Awwww. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
... I would much rather see completely new power sets than an AT that rehashes what we have already.
|
Really? There would be countless more time spent by players trying to make an Ubber toon with 3 powersets... but of course, they would be mistaken! With the Max Value limit in place, any extra bonuses would taper off! But they would forget that! ;D
Less Powers to use that wee bit of extra build up. Not worth it really!
Its a Game! People need to have Fun! 1st and foremost! IMHO!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by _Ail_
The OP should try Champions Online I think. It will give the flexibility they seem to want with the Gold (or whatever they call it...paying) subscription level. You can mix and match to your hearts content.
It would be too dramatic a change for CoX to do it very free form, and anyway as others have pointed out CoX already has hybrids in most of the Villain ATs and the Epics. And many of the Hero ATs like Controllers can be played as hybrids in any case. In short, it is a terrible idea IMO and as others have said would waste countless hours of dev time in order to make it so that you can have a more overpowered character when we can already have ridiculously overpowered characters. One of the main faults of CO IMO was how free form it was. You could have all of your essential powers by the mid 20s and then after that you just rounded off things by cherry picking the standard overpowered buffs and additional abilities from different frameworks to make sure you were the ultimate tank/mage/buffer. This led to a homogenization of the powers because that was the only effective way to balance them. AT setups (i.e., classes) actually tend to lead to a greater variety in powers and abilities because powersets only need to be balanced vs other powersets. If you have a free form system, you need to balance individual abilities against other individual abilities, and this is much harder and inevitably leads to a homogenization of the abilities. So if you are balancing powerset vs powerset, you can have a set with some real overpowered abilities in it and still have it roughly balanced against another set even if they are not balanced on an ability-by-ability basis. Witness lots of fighting games for examples of this. This is something many free form people can't seem to get their head around: That by advocating a free form system they are also simultaneously actually giving themselves less options because things will get homogenized in the name of balance. |
> This is something many free form people can't seem to get their head around: That by advocating a free form system they are also simultaneously actually giving themselves less options because things will get homogenized in the name of balance.
I see. So if I say Kinettics right now on a Troller makes it Ubber, what does that mean!?!?
Its already unbalanced!?!? Aha!?!?
Please read some of the posts about Max Value limit.. as far as Buffs/DeBuffs/ etc... are concerned.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Fortunately variations on this idea have been proposed at least five times in the past year alone, so they've has plenty of chances to look at it.
This proposal is actually one of the less fleshed-out proposals i've seen. Some of the other proposals have actually crunched out the numbers to a far greater degree. The problem, as has already been mentioned in this thread, is that powers are balanced against each other within a set far more than they are balanced against powers in other sets or by tier. So either every set available to the AT would have to be tweaked for balance (which would be an example of non-trivial computation) or the suggestion of adding lower caps would need to be used. Lower caps would mostly result in an AT that would have mediocre performance on teams in every role compared to every other AT. It's not impossible to balance all the set combinations, but even just working with two types of sets, like ranged and buff/debuff, it would probably be more work than creating a new AT from scratch. Doing it for every AT would be as much work as creating the same number of ATs. Kheldians were pretty much an early attempt at doing something like this by combining powers from multiple sets and ATs with some new powers thrown in, but were so heavily nerfed that Peacebringers are still average after multiple buffs to the AT. Warshades are actually quite powerful when played to their strengths, but their power is fairly situational. Anyway, it's an interesting idea, but not likely to happen. We're far more likely to get a new AT with branching sets like the VEATS or new sets that allow you to change attack damage/debuff/mez types like Dual Pistols and Staff Melee do. |
> The problem, as has already been mentioned in this thread, is that powers are balanced against each other within a set far more than they are balanced against powers in other sets or by tier.
Exactly!
Isnt that awesome! Some players are worried it would become too un-Balanced. It wouldnt.You wont see any real numbers from me! I'm no mathematician, im just a vet wanting to continue to be challenged and it be invigorating!
I'll make a comparison though... so people will see what two Build Up will be like.
Its easier if i can relate it to something that everyone is familiar with already..
so..
The Diminished value of having 2 Build Ups is best thought of like this:
Build Up 1 = Two 50 Accuracy Invention IO's
Build Up 2 = Two 50 Accuracy Invention IO's
If you slot Four 50 Accuracy Invention IO's in a power.. how much more beneficial is it?
Very slight! You really just need Two 50 Accuracy Invention IO's for Most Efficiency!
Rage lasts much longer.. so its benefits would drop to a comparable 1 50 Accuracy Invention IO.
No math.. just winging it! I dont see Why I have to come up with the Math! I just want to have fun Dang It! Not like it will be used in CoH anyways!
> It's not impossible to balance all the set combinations, but even just working with two types of sets, like ranged and buff/debuff, it would probably be more work than creating a new AT from scratch. Doing it for every AT would be as much work as creating the same number of ATs
Yep Yep!
It would take them a year or more to implement, but it would make their paychecks so much more secure!
Because!!! Paying players would keep coming back to test out a new Combo powerset, especially when they release a brand new powerset. Its awesome! I'd then want to be on the Paragon Studios payroll! Job Security!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Everyone mentions the HEATS and VEATS as hybrid ATs.
As such, with the coming of a new costume pack, and having the abilities already in place...maybe it's time for a new Epic AT! The Gunslinger! Dual Pistols/Street Justice/Martial Arts Hybrid Primary with Defensive Secondary Tree! There we go! It's something we like and something that can easily be balanced and worth having, seeing as how I can make a Crab do close to the same thing without it being considered OP but not have Dual Pistol action!Keep the Dual Pistol animations we have now, combine it with various hand to hand moves from Street Justice and Martial Arts, but lose the combo system of Street Justice, but allow the pistols to remain drawn during those hand to hand moves. |
> Keep the Dual Pistol animations we have now, combine it with various hand to hand moves from Street Justice and Martial Arts...
Hmmm.... If we learned anything form the new Incarnate system, then you know those would not be allowed at the same time. Maybe.. Maybe.. there could be a Cooldown Period before you can switch from one tot he other!.. I dont think everyone will like a melee mixing too much with Ranged damage!
Well, Kinetic Melee has how many ranged Damaging attacks? But what do I know anyways?
Quote:
That is exactly what it means. Kinetics buffs are indeed already imbalanced... but they're imbalanced around the fact that other buff/debuffs sets are equally imbalanced and desirable. Allowing any kind of mixing and matching leads *exactly* to the grab one or two powers of a set to eliminate the need for the rest of the set mentality I described earlier.|
Originally Posted by IzzySoft
> This is something many free form people can't seem to get their head around: That by advocating a free form system they are also simultaneously actually giving themselves less options because things will get homogenized in the name of balance.
I see. So if I say Kinettics right now on a Troller makes it Ubber, what does that mean!?!? Its already unbalanced!?!? Aha!?!? Please read some of the posts about Max Value limit.. as far as Buffs/DeBuffs/ etc... are concerned. |
Even with your arbitrary rules, which seem to mostly say "You can mix attack sets, that's it", you will still run into the "Rage for EVERYONE" of my earlier post. Even with your max value. It's not about stacking Rage and Build up for ultimate damage - it's about making rage accessible to sets that aren't balanced around its presence, like superstrength is. If you want to see what happens when Rage is allowed off its leash you have to look no further than the Brute forums and the multitude of SS/Fire threads. What makes the combo tick is Rage beefing up Burn, and Fiery Embrace beefing up Footstomp.
And they both use entirely different mechanics to do so, so your max value wouldn't matter UNLESS it was set lower than the buff from either.
That's the real trick about this kind of thing. It's really not about stacking like bonuses. Force Field Generator + Ice Domination's shields = nice. Force Field Generator + Empathy's healing = nobody ever plays a Defender empath again.
The more exclusions you have to make for the sake of balance the less desirable the end product becomes. Not (just) because of the way it clamps down on min/max power but simply for a truth of game design:
Players REALLY hate being told what they can and can't take.
I still know people who are angry, yes angry, that Katana and Claws didn't get one handed animations so they can be paired with Shield Defense. They hate seeing primaries or secondaries greyed out on the character generation screen. Hate it.
This would be worse.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Quote:
Nah!!! Dont scrap Khelds... Just add a few more Attacks in Squid Form and Lobster form! |
Originally Posted by JayboH
That's because they are. They did a VERY good job on the VEATs. I have always thought the inherent weakness to Kheldians gimmick should have been scrapped after ED hit.
|
And.. for gawd sake.. change the Human form Footstopm effect from Knockback to Knock Down!
Every tank would look at me Cross!
Quote:
Very True! Ive said it as well! But...|
Originally Posted by JayboH
That's because they are. They did a VERY good job on the VEATs. I have always thought the inherent weakness to Kheldians gimmick should have been scrapped after ED hit.
|
just like Claws Melee.. i think it was called Evicerate? the Superior Cone attack? It doesnt have the Knock down effect, which people want, and might replace that power with its cousin from the Spines Melee powerset.
Same thing with a Window! I wasnt happy that such a powerful attack like that didnt have Some Sort of Effect accompanying it.. (did you see the awesome twirl in the air? and no Knock Down? Stun? etc.. Really!? ) even if it was for 2 to 3 seconds... just didnt feel real! Err sorry Real is not the best word.. lets use 'Believable!'
So yea... weather its concept Beleavable or other... VEATS is not the All to End All AT! Sorry!
Are you by any chance related to Golden Girl?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
That is exactly what it means. Kinetics buffs are indeed already imbalanced... but they're imbalanced around the fact that other buff/debuffs sets are equally imbalanced and desirable. Allowing any kind of mixing and matching leads *exactly* to the grab one or two powers of a set to eliminate the need for the rest of the set mentality I described earlier.
Even with your arbitrary rules, which seem to mostly say "You can mix attack sets, that's it", you will still run into the "Rage for EVERYONE" of my earlier post. Even with your max value. It's not about stacking Rage and Build up for ultimate damage - it's about making rage accessible to sets that aren't balanced around its presence, like superstrength is. If you want to see what happens when Rage is allowed off its leash you have to look no further than the Brute forums and the multitude of SS/Fire threads. What makes the combo tick is Rage beefing up Burn, and Fiery Embrace beefing up Footstomp. And they both use entirely different mechanics to do so, so your max value wouldn't matter UNLESS it was set lower than the buff from either. That's the real trick about this kind of thing. It's really not about stacking like bonuses. Force Field Generator + Ice Domination's shields = nice. Force Field Generator + Empathy's healing = nobody ever plays a Defender empath again. The more exclusions you have to make for the sake of balance the less desirable the end product becomes. Not (just) because of the way it clamps down on min/max power but simply for a truth of game design: Players REALLY hate being told what they can and can't take. I still know people who are angry, yes angry, that Katana and Claws didn't get one handed animations so they can be paired with Shield Defense. They hate seeing primaries or secondaries greyed out on the character generation screen. Hate it. This would be worse. |
> That's the real trick about this kind of thing. It's really not about stacking like bonuses. Force Field Generator + Ice Domination's shields = nice. Force Field Generator + Empathy's healing = nobody ever plays a Defender empath again.
Nuuuuu! You're forgetting about the toons Level playing a part in the Max Value limit.
The full benefits wont be see until lvl 50, and by that time, defenders will Need It!
55% Defense? Phhhh.. That wont help you in an Incarnate Trial! Ehh, but you never know! They could always nerf i-Trials!
Hypothetically... with a Max Value limit..
Tapering Ex:
Force Field Generator (+Def) = two 50 Invention IO's
Ice Manipulation (+Def) = two 50 Invention IO's
How much extra defense would Four 50 Invention IO's give you? Yea! Very little!
But, thats a defenders prerogative!
> This would be worse.
o.O huh!?!?
Honestly? For 'Believability' they did the Right thing for Katana, Claws, etc... as far as Shield Defense is concerned! We still have Broadsword! Take it instead!
This is just a wish AT!