IzzySoft
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Posts
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Joined
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Chain Melee 'Nuf Said!
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Quote:Hehe... Wow. I just saw Ghost Rider 2.Originally Posted by IzzySoft
- Flaming chain links. (Ummm... not like Ghost Rider's!)
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Quote:Originally Posted by Vexen777
Very unique powerset, but classical. Vexen Approves.
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Quote:People should take a look at that proposal also.Originally Posted by Kirsten
Yeah, I posted an idea of my own on this earlier. I gave a link to it earlier in the thread.
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Quote:I originally posted this in the Archetypes section, but was told to move it.Originally Posted by Remaugen
... Wasn't this posted before?
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Quote:Chain Melee animations, in theory, should be much easier than an actual Whip animation.Originally Posted by Twigman
... Which I would also LOVE.
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Quote:I was imagining it more like This.Originally Posted by Twigman
First fix I recommend ... I've never seen anyone swing a chain or whip with 2 hands. It would be a one armed weapon.
They already have a few animation thanks to demon summoning. They could expand on them. This set could also benefit from the momentum concept, but remove the timer, once you start, your momentum is hight until you have to stop ie: other powers non chain related, new mob, redraw, wait for next power to recharge, and the like.
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Quote:i guess that's understandable.Originally Posted by Gobbledygook
I have a love/hate relationship with this idea.
It's a fun set, in theory, and a bit easier than whip melee to implement (i think). Plus, chain melee can be adapted to fit many more themes/concepts than whip would. I consider that a plus for chain melee. -
Quote:Ill try and build a list of reference material below... need a few days.Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
From what I understand of how you revised the animations, it doesn't remove the difficulty that exists with a flowing whip-like device animating and having it look right.
ex:
Always Face Camera
Note:
I might make a dirty mock-up in Blender if i can figure out how to rig the flat planes.
I already posted a help request in the blender forum here. -
Quote:Hmmm.. Not sure about Nun-chucks, but a 3 Section Staff (video) could more likely be themed. Hard to say.Originally Posted by NewJerseyDevil
could nunchucks be a viable alternate look for the weapon? because that's all i want
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Quote:Ahh, Nice. Teleport Foe is an interesting concept.Originally Posted by Kirsten
I also had a chain set. (Link in sig.)
What do you think of the powerset I have here? -
Ghost Rider!
Some Wushu chain fighting movies?
..and then check out this thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=279809
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Quote:Doms? I suppose, but the Chain set would have to get a few more Close Ranged attack then to fit what Doms need, which is a good mix of Melee and Ranged, not mostly Melee.Originally Posted by MisterD
Like this idea a lot..also a chain/whip/roan/laser lash type assault set for doms, maybe blasters?
Blasters could use just about every power, in their Secondary, but not Taunt/Provoke.
Thanks.Quote:Originally Posted by MisterD
Tension is such a cool name (and your animation idea) for build up..I wish they would make all the aims/bu's unique.
Actually, i was considering that name for a combo like system (similar to Street Justice) called Tension for Chain Melee, where the End of the Chain (5 to 6 links) that connects with enemies, would build up small amounts of miss-shaped dents on the links, which would add additional Light damage with each attack, until a Hold or Immobilize power is used, and the end of the Chain would break off (from all that Built Up Tension) and stay on the target for additional Light Lethal DoT Dmg (5 to 6 ticks worth).
But Titan Weapons has Momentum and CoH seems to be getting more and more of these combo based powersets, so I just left out any kind of combo system in Chain Melee.
Anyways, I think a combo system is nice to have (like Dual Blades), but at the same time.. I dont want to slow down the Chain Melee set, because players would wait for a finishing attack to recharge instead of using another attack. I know i know, thats not true for Street Justice, but... I find myself every so often doing just that, waiting for a finisher attack to recharge!
Also, at one time I considered adding extra Disorient to Tension (Build Up), so that it would have three things (+ToHit, +Dmg, +Stun). But i gave up that idea.
No matter what lever you are Exemplar ed to, Chain Melee will still be fun!
Side Note: Shin Breaker from Street Justice is a lackluster attack, visually. If i could, i would replace that attack with Gut Blow or Knee Jerk. Gut Blow can keep all the Effects it has already.. change the description slightly to reflect that the enemy is left gasping for air, slower response time, which also means slower defensive maneuvers. Or, Knee Jerk.. Kick to the side (well, side and to the back) of the legs, which has a decent chance to kockdown a foe.
Side Side Note: Street Justice is lacking a decent Cone Attack. Sweeping Cross can have an Arc of 130 and hit max of 4 (just to see how well it works), and possibly increase the max to 8 targets.
I think most Cone attacks should be a decent cone (arc: 130) and just limit the number of max targets it can hit. I hate having to run all around a bunch of enemies to get them in a narrow cone! Thats just awful for some Defense powersets. (Willpower being one)
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Quote:Ehhh. Whip powerset is much more difficult for animators. I have revised the animations and it should be Allot Simpler to animate.Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
I doubt a specific Chain Melee set would happen. It sounds too similar to a whip power set. More likely that they would develop a more generic whip set with a chain as a weapon customization so it could work with more character concepts.
Also, as others have mentioned, the whips on the Demon Summoning were some of the most expensive and difficult powers they've developed for the game. Not that its impossible to do, and that it can't possibly happen, but with the difficulty putting together the set, I wouldn't expect a separation between a generic whip power-set and a chain melee power-set just from a cost consideration, and it would be a ways down the road. More people (at least from what I've seen) have wanted a whip melee set for a while, especially since Demon Summoning has come out, than a chain melee set. The concepts are similar enough that its likely they would just say close enough on it and do chains as a weapon customization. Theres no need for complex Kinematics now.
Thank you.Quote:Originally Posted by ShadowNate
I like your idea ...
Ok. Im down with that! Use a rectangular Flat plane that always faces the camera (like trees in some games) and use bump-mapping to make the texture look like it has depth. Link a few of these Depth planes to form the Chain Links.Quote:1) If they were to do this they would not cylinders, that is crazy expensive geometry wise and would be a nightmare to animate nicely. The would use 2 planes for each link with a flat texture to give the impression of a 3d chain.
ex:
Link 2 is on top of Link 1 and Link 3.
If its a 4 foot midget thats using Chain Melee, fewer links would be used (Its not fair to Scale Down certain/future Chain Themes, if they are intentionally exaggerated in Link Size to fit a theme). When the 4 foot toon tries to use the 2 close ranged attacks, additional links (4 to 5 or however many) would be added to accommodate the effect. Additional links are added to the end of the chain until it reaches the target. In the case of a Spiked Ball at End of chain theme, Spiked Ball would have to be a separate entity that is always positioned at End of chain. Thats not rocket science to implement, i dont think!Quote:3) Scaling could become a MAJOR issue especially with respect to how the animations could work, imagine someone super huge or small doing these things, they could hit too far away or too close.
You |----| Target
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Any Chain Link perspective planes that come in contact with target can be hidden.
Any Wrapping animations around the Target would not be part of the Users Chain, but a separate entity thats part of the target.
Only Ninja Run could use cape physics (not necessary though) on the chain hanging from the 2nd hand. Rest of the time, it would be static animations (think Animated Tail), like any other hand held power. Or, Throw the chain around self (hangs off of one shoulder and goes across torso to other side of body), no physics required. When you turn Ninja Run off, you can pull the chain off of body in a nice (but static) animation. -
After not playing Kinetic Melee for a long time, i rolled a brute and saw how fun it could be. All throughout the sewers trial, i was soooooo happy that i didnt roll a Titan weapons toon. They be complaining too much about their Momentum! Then I started to think maybe we need another fun and fast paced powerset. This is what i think could be fun.
Tier 1 power:
Name: Bell Ringer
Damage: Single Target, Moderate Lethal
Effect: -Defense DeBuff, Mag. 2 Disorient
Recharge: Fast (6 to 8 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Chain hits head. 1st hand at Start of chain (hip height), 2nd hand at half the chains length (hip height). About half of the chain is hanging from the 2nd hand. A single fast twirl toward the targets cranium, while the 2nd hand (with half the chain twirling) moves away from side of body and towards target, in an overhead swoop. A good chance to Stun Minions.
Tier 2 power:
Name: Dirt Bath
Damage: Single Target, Close Ranged, High Lethal DoT
Effect: Mag. 1 KnockDown, Mag. 2 Immobilize
Recharge: Moderate (8 to 10 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Chain around ankles. Starts like a Cowboy trying to lasso a bull at a rodeo, chain spins above head, chain goes around targets ankles, Ends with a section of the chain breaking off (stays on target) as you pull the chain back. Target is immobilized, with a good chance to knockdown Minions/Lts.
Tier 3 power:
Name: Rattle Jaw
Damage: Single Target, High Smashing
Effect: Mag. 1 KnockUp, Mag. 1 Disorient
Recharge: Moderate to Slow (8 to 12 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Chain hits jaw. 1st hand at Start of chain (hip height), 2nd hand at half the chains length (hip height). About half of the chain is hanging from the 2nd hand. A single fast to moderate twirl toward the targets jaw, while the 2nd hand (with half the chain twirling) moves away from side of body and towards target, but not an overhead swoop, under, with a good chance to knockup Minions/Lts.
Tier 4 power:
Name: Tension
Damage: n/a
Effect: +ToHit, +Dmg
Recharge: Long (80 to 90 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Both Hands hold the chain up slightly (hip height). Checking to see how Strong the chain is by tugging on it. Chain can have a build up glow.
Tier 5 power:
Name: Choker
Damage: Single Target, Close Ranged, High Lethal DoT
Effect: Mag. 4 Hold, -Resistance DeBuff
Recharge: Moderate to Slow (8 to 12 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Chain around Neck. Starts like a Cowboy trying to lasso a bull at a rodeo, chain spins above head, chain goes around targets neck. Ends with a section of the chain breaking off (stays on target) as you pull the chain back. Target tries to remove chain. A good chance to hold Minions/Lts/Bosses.
Tier 6 power:
Name: Taunt/Provoke
Damage: Targeted AoE/Single Target Taunt
Effect: Mag. 41 Taunt/Mag. 23 Taunt
Recharge: Fast (6 to 8 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Swings chain above head. 1st hand at Start of chain (hip height), 2nd hand above head. About Half of the chain is being twirled.
Or, the 2nd hand is also at hip height and just twirling half a chain on the side of the body. Chain can be twirled at a very slow pace, in a provoking manner, with the 2nd hand moving slightly in a circular motion (2nd hand follows the chain in its rotation a bit) to make it seem like thats whats causing the chain to sustain such a slow rotation without falling limp. (this animation might be too hard to implement though)
Or, just a regular taunt hand motion from the 1st hand at the Start of the chain (thats not twirling the chain, holding the chain still), while the 2nd hand is still twirling half the chain at the side of the body.
Tier 7 power:
Name: Whirly Bird
Damage: PBAoE, Moderate to Heavy Smashing
Effect: Mag. 1 KnockDown, Mag. 1 Disorient
Recharge: Slow (10 to 12 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Swings chain above head. Enemies hit in head will be seeing birds (figuratively). 1st hand at Start of chain, 2nd hand swings half a chain above head once. Hits max of 16 targets in the vicinity, with a good chance to knockdown Minions/Lts.
Or, 2 hands at Start of chain (2 to 3 links showing below hands), and both hands twirl chain above head once.
Tier 8 power:
Name: ... any suggestions? (maybe Sweeper)
Damage: Close Cone (Arc: 130), Heavy to High Smashing
Effect: -ToHit DeBuff, Mag. 1 Disorient
Recharge: Moderate (8 to 10 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Swings chain in a cone! 1st hand at Start of chain, 2nd hand swings half a chain in a cone once. Hits max of 8 targets. A violent burst of wind from the swing picks up debris and directs it at the enemies eyes, making it harder for them to see. (similar momentum, not the posture, of a baseball pitcher winding up and launching a ball)
Tier 9 power:
Name: Crack Jaw
Damage: Single Target, Superior Smashing
Effect: Mag. 2 KnockUp, Mag. 2 Disorient
Recharge: Slow (10 to 12 sec.)
Animation: Just like Rattle Jaw, but with a slightly longer animation? Chain can be twirled slow on 1st rotation, then on 2nd rotation fast, then on 3rd attack!? A good chance to knockup Minions/Lts/Bosses.
Please post alternate power Name suggestions, and alternate animations!
Please try not to use 'Chain' in the powers name, only because of the alternate looks Chain Melee might get later.
Also, post any alternate looks you can think of for Chain Melee. Ahhh.. like:
- Leather whip laced with metal ball-bearings. (just note: it wont play/animate like a Whip)
- Rope with embedded Horse Shoes.
- Spiked Ball at End of the chain.
- Flaming chain links. (Ummm... not like Ghost Rider's!)
- Larger chain links with Saw like Teeth!
- Chinese 9 Section Metal Whip! (video)
etc..
*please note: There is no Extreme Damage attack because it needs to stay fast paced, very fluid in its animation and casting. Has to be fun to look at / and play, even at the cost of a tiny bit less damage! Think Claws Melee.
Plus, Whirly Bird (the PBAoE) has a bit extra damage (moderate to heavy dmg, leaning to heavy), which will even things out allot. This makeup will make this powerset team friendly with its PBAoE and Cone, and also Solo friendly with its Single Target attacks, since some of the Single Target Attacks will land more often (-Def), with a bit more damage (-Res).
Anyways, Damage alone doesnt make a powerset fun, its the mitigation!
It would just suck if there was no knockdown!
Thanks,
D-Man! -
Quote:Super.. thanks for the suggestions. Was wondering about the MagnitudesOriginally Posted by Hopeling
First, this really belongs in the Suggestion forum.
I'm... not at all sure I agree with your design philosophy here, since plenty of people have played Fire Melee since forever despite it having zero knockdown or mitigation of any kind except damage. Also, fast/fluid powers can still be heavy hitters (see: War Mace/Clobber, Stone Melee/Seismic Smash, Titan Weapons in general, Fire Blast/Blaze for a non-melee example).
Personally, for "do I want to play this" I rate the 3 sets you chose at:
Titan Weapons: 10 (maybe I'll feel differently in a month when the novelty wears off, but for now, I'm totally loving this set)
Dual Blades: 8
Chain Link Melee: Maybe 5?
Hard to compare a hypothetical set with only descriptions to existing sets that I've played, but even just on concept, huge devastating weapons, or nimble paired blades is more appealing to me than swinging a chain.
Kind of a minor nitpick, but there is no such thing as mag 2 knockdown. Knockdown is just knockback with a magnitude less than 1. A mag .6 or .8 stun or immobilize won't affect even a minion. Mezzes are generally mag 2 ("only minions"), mag 3 ("minions and Lts"), or mag 4 ("minions/Lts/bosses"), with mag 3 being the most common.
If the set's supposed to be able to represent things besides chains composed of metal links, call it something other than Chain Link Melee
Lastly, this really, really belongs in the Suggestion forum. Just copied 0.6 from some powers i saw in Mids.
Thread moved and powers updated to: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...46#post4023246 -
Quote:Why so negative?Originally Posted by ZedOmega
You should definitely hold your breath until they make this set.
Even if it takes forever, I still would like to know how Chain Links melee would compare in terms of fun.
I would like to ask players to rate these 3 Melee Sets from 1 (lowest) to 10 (highest).
- Chain Links = 8
- Titan Weapons = 4
- Dual Blades = 7
Yes,, please add your own melee powersets if you wish, too. -
Quote:TY!Originally Posted by ShadowNate
I like your idea ...
Ok. Im down with that! Use a rectangular Flat plane that always faces the camera (like trees in some games) and use bump-mapping to make the texture look like it has depth. Link a few of these Depth planes to form the Chain Links.Quote:1) If they were to do this they would not cylinders, that is crazy expensive geometry wise and would be a nightmare to animate nicely. The would use 2 planes for each link with a flat texture to give the impression of a 3d chain.
ex:
Link 2 is on top of Link 1 and Link 3.
You -----> TargetQuote:3) Scaling could become a MAJOR issue especially with respect to how the animations could work, imagine someone super huge or small doing these things, they could hit too far away or too close.
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Any Chain Link perspective planes that come in contact with target can be hidden.
Any Wrapping animations around the Target would not be part of the Users Whip, but a separate entity thats part of the target. -
Quote:Ahhhhaaa. ok. *rolls eyes*Originally Posted by _Pine_
Nope. They don't have to do it. There are millions of better and easier ideas to try before this.
We will see. I'll be sure to check back on this in 2 years max.
In the meantime, i hope it doesnt get too awfully boring.
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Quote:Well, they're gonna have ta do it eventually! Just a matter of time now!Originally Posted by JayboH
Laugh if you wish, I am just telling you the truth. The reason they won't do a whip set is because of their extremely painful experience making the 3 attacks in Demon Summoning.
Your set idea would have the exact same problem - it was never about the difference in polys for the models though.
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Quote:HAHAhAhahahahaha. They dont want to add something that looks visually stunning? Hmmm.Originally Posted by JayboH
This.
...they said that those 3 attacks in Demon Summoning took far, far more work than they seem to be willing to do for a whole set.
I've only worked briefly with 3D, including modeling with Blender, Cheetah, and some lower end packages, so i dont think 40 to 50 cylinders should be a big deal.
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Quote:Maybe, maybe not. Chain links work on far fewer 3D bones than a plain whip!Originally Posted by rsclark
Probably never happen given that it has the same issues as whip attacks.
Oh wait... There's no need for any sort of Kinematics. I forgot to mention that.
The immobilize and the hold dont have to hit the target precisely for the VisualFx to be shown of the Hold/Immobilize. That would be plain silly to expect that! If you tried to Kite, using precise kinematics would look awful!
Demon Summoning has whip attack!
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Quote:Chain Links meleeOriginally Posted by Emberly
Well this sure isn't what I expected given the thread title Chain Link, to me, means fences. Fence Melee would be kinda cool!
