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Ehhh. Whip powerset is much more difficult for animators. I have revised the animations and it should be Allot Simpler to animate. |
Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
I doubt a specific Chain Melee set would happen. It sounds too similar to a whip power set. More likely that they would develop a more generic whip set with a chain as a weapon customization so it could work with more character concepts.
Also, as others have mentioned, the whips on the Demon Summoning were some of the most expensive and difficult powers they've developed for the game. Not that its impossible to do, and that it can't possibly happen, but with the difficulty putting together the set, I wouldn't expect a separation between a generic whip power-set and a chain melee power-set just from a cost consideration, and it would be a ways down the road. More people (at least from what I've seen) have wanted a whip melee set for a while, especially since Demon Summoning has come out, than a chain melee set. The concepts are similar enough that its likely they would just say close enough on it and do chains as a weapon customization. |
Theres no need for complex Kinematics now.Quote:
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
I like your idea ...
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| 1) If they were to do this they would not cylinders, that is crazy expensive geometry wise and would be a nightmare to animate nicely. The would use 2 planes for each link with a flat texture to give the impression of a 3d chain. |
ex:
Link 2 is on top of Link 1 and Link 3.
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| 3) Scaling could become a MAJOR issue especially with respect to how the animations could work, imagine someone super huge or small doing these things, they could hit too far away or too close. |
You |----| Target
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|----------|
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Any Chain Link perspective planes that come in contact with target can be hidden.
Any Wrapping animations around the Target would not be part of the Users Chain, but a separate entity thats part of the target.
Only Ninja Run could use cape physics (not necessary though) on the chain hanging from the 2nd hand. Rest of the time, it would be static animations (think Animated Tail), like any other hand held power. Or, Throw the chain around self (hangs off of one shoulder and goes across torso to other side of body), no physics required. When you turn Ninja Run off, you can pull the chain off of body in a nice (but static) animation.
Like this idea a lot..also a chain/whip/roan/laser lash type assault set for doms, maybe blasters?
Tension is such a cool name (and your animation idea) for build up..I wish they would make all the aims/bu's unique.
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Doms? I suppose, but the Chain set would have to get a few more Close Ranged attack then to fit what Doms need, which is a good mix of Melee and Ranged, not mostly Melee. |
Originally Posted by MisterD
Like this idea a lot..also a chain/whip/roan/laser lash type assault set for doms, maybe blasters?
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Blasters could use just about every power, in their Secondary, but not Taunt/Provoke.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Tension is such a cool name (and your animation idea) for build up..I wish they would make all the aims/bu's unique.
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Actually, i was considering that name for a combo like system (similar to Street Justice) called Tension for Chain Melee, where the End of the Chain (5 to 6 links) that connects with enemies, would build up small amounts of miss-shaped dents on the links, which would add additional Light damage with each attack, until a Hold or Immobilize power is used, and the end of the Chain would break off (from all that Built Up Tension) and stay on the target for additional Light Lethal DoT Dmg (5 to 6 ticks worth).
But Titan Weapons has Momentum and CoH seems to be getting more and more of these combo based powersets, so I just left out any kind of combo system in Chain Melee.
Anyways, I think a combo system is nice to have (like Dual Blades), but at the same time.. I dont want to slow down the Chain Melee set, because players would wait for a finishing attack to recharge instead of using another attack. I know i know, thats not true for Street Justice, but... I find myself every so often doing just that, waiting for a finisher attack to recharge!
Also, at one time I considered adding extra Disorient to Tension (Build Up), so that it would have three things (+ToHit, +Dmg, +Stun). But i gave up that idea.
No matter what lever you are Exemplar ed to, Chain Melee will still be fun!
Side Note: Shin Breaker from Street Justice is a lackluster attack, visually. If i could, i would replace that attack with Gut Blow or Knee Jerk. Gut Blow can keep all the Effects it has already.. change the description slightly to reflect that the enemy is left gasping for air, slower response time, which also means slower defensive maneuvers. Or, Knee Jerk.. Kick to the side (well, side and to the back) of the legs, which has a decent chance to kockdown a foe.
Side Side Note: Street Justice is lacking a decent Cone Attack. Sweeping Cross can have an Arc of 130 and hit max of 4 (just to see how well it works), and possibly increase the max to 8 targets.
I think most Cone attacks should be a decent cone (arc: 130) and just limit the number of max targets it can hit. I hate having to run all around a bunch of enemies to get them in a narrow cone!
Thats just awful for some Defense powersets. (Willpower being one)
I also had a chain set. (Link in here)
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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Ahh, Nice. Teleport Foe is an interesting concept. |
Originally Posted by Kirsten
I also had a chain set. (Link in sig.)
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What do you think of the powerset I have here?
I think it's pretty good. I don't really like melee sets, but I would roll a brute with either.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
could nunchucks be a viable alternate look for the weapon? because that's all i want
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Hmmm.. Not sure about Nun-chucks, but a 3 Section Staff (video) could more likely be themed. Hard to say.
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Originally Posted by NewJerseyDevil
could nunchucks be a viable alternate look for the weapon? because that's all i want
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From what I understand of how you revised the animations, it doesn't remove the difficulty that exists with a flowing whip-like device animating and having it look right.|
Originally Posted by IzzySoft
Ehhh. Whip powerset is much more difficult for animators. I have revised the animations and it should be Allot Simpler to animate.
Theres no need for complex Kinematics now. |
While it may be made of 2D panels for the chain links, it doesn't change that those 2D panels have to flow in a 3D space fluidly and appropriately so it looks right moving from any angle. Flinging a chain is going to look differently from the top than it will from the side. That's the issue with animating a whip as well. Not to mention that from a distance that most people are in the game, most people in the game won't be able to make out individual chain links to merit spending the time to break out even that much detail...unless those are some HUGE links. At the speed most things go in this game it would be impractical to go that route since VERY few people would even notice or be able to make it out.
Also, the capes are static animations based on the characters stances. They aren't calculated as you're thinking...and it doesn't always look quite right. For instance...you fly straight up and stop...relative to the character you're looking forward and the cape goes down your back, but relative to the world you're looking up and the cape should be going with gravity and falling behind you. It is a mesh of canned animations relative to the player, not the world. Unfortunatly it doesn't work well for a super hero game to not have capes...whips we can live without for the most part...and they are fairly resource intensive...which is why they only let us have one cape/trenchcoat/borelo. MAYBE they could have the whip coiled in their hand instead of dangling as a compromise, but at this stage they wouldn't want to introduce more weird animation stuff like that unless necessary.
Its also very hard to get a consistent contact between a player and an enemy to look right. Even in melee range there's a variable distance between them. Nearly any other game i've seen attempt something like that, there's a jump between the deployment animation and the animation of actually having the contact between them. Even in this game, punches don't actually connect directly with the bad guy...a spark effect of some sort fires off on a specific part of a bad guy or at the end of your fist indicating contact. Having a fixed line of objects between them would be very difficult to get to look right.
Is it possible...well...yes...given enough time and money, technically anything is possible in the world of computers...but there's a limit somewhere in there practically, especially for a semi-niche weapon...which is why I suggested a general whip over just a chain...in my opinion, slightly less niche and everything works for both for the most part. I like the idea of it, and i'm not saying its a bad idea in concept and I hate poo-pooing it. Just saying I doubt its going to happen too soon due to the complexities of getting it to look good that the devs have already said.
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Ill try and build a list of reference material below... need a few days.|
Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
From what I understand of how you revised the animations, it doesn't remove the difficulty that exists with a flowing whip-like device animating and having it look right.
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ex:
Always Face Camera
Note:
I might make a dirty mock-up in Blender if i can figure out how to rig the flat planes.
I already posted a help request in the blender forum here.
I have a love/hate relationship with this idea.
On the one hand, I could finally make an homage to one of my favorite looking characters, Backlash!
http://www.comicvine.com/backlash/29-25978/
On the other hand, I have been leveling a toon that is an homage to him the last couple of weeks. Had to settle for vanguard claws and tinted them purple.
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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i guess that's understandable. |
Originally Posted by Gobbledygook
I have a love/hate relationship with this idea.
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It's a fun set, in theory, and a bit easier than whip melee to implement (i think). Plus, chain melee can be adapted to fit many more themes/concepts than whip would. I consider that a plus for chain melee.
Yeah. And they could simply add whip skins for Chain Melee, if people want it that bad.
...
Crap. Now the Indiana Jones theme is stuck in my head.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
First fix I recommend ... I've never seen anyone swing a chain or whip with 2 hands. It would be a one armed weapon.
They already have a few animation thanks to demon summoning. They could expand on them. This set could also benefit from the momentum concept, but remove the timer, once you start, your momentum is hight until you have to stop ie: other powers non chain related, new mob, redraw, wait for next power to recharge, and the like.
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I was imagining it more like This. |
Originally Posted by Twigman
First fix I recommend ... I've never seen anyone swing a chain or whip with 2 hands. It would be a one armed weapon.
They already have a few animation thanks to demon summoning. They could expand on them. This set could also benefit from the momentum concept, but remove the timer, once you start, your momentum is hight until you have to stop ie: other powers non chain related, new mob, redraw, wait for next power to recharge, and the like. |
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AH ... I can see and agree with that, in that, it could easily be altered to hold a whip. Though, I've still never seen a chain held like that. The only time I've seen a rope type weapon held like that is the asian weapon, a rope with a dagger on the end. Which I would also LOVE. |
Originally Posted by IzzySoft
I was imagining it more like This.
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Chain Melee animations, in theory, should be much easier than an actual Whip animation. |
Originally Posted by Twigman
... Which I would also LOVE.
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Very unique powerset, but classical. Vexen Approves.
It would be fun! Wasn't this posted before?
Do want.
@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
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Yeah, I posted an idea of my own on this earlier. I gave a link to it earlier in the thread.
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Originally Posted by Remaugen
It would be fun! Wasn't this posted before?
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Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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I originally posted this in the Archetypes section, but was told to move it. |
Originally Posted by Remaugen
... Wasn't this posted before?
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After not playing Kinetic Melee for a long time, i rolled a brute and saw how fun it could be. All throughout the sewers trial, i was soooooo happy that i didnt roll a Titan weapons toon. They be complaining too much about their Momentum!
Then I started to think maybe we need another fun and fast paced powerset. This is what i think could be fun.
Tier 1 power:
Name: Bell Ringer
Damage: Single Target, Moderate Lethal
Effect: -Defense DeBuff, Mag. 2 Disorient
Recharge: Fast (6 to 8 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Chain hits head. 1st hand at Start of chain (hip height), 2nd hand at half the chains length (hip height). About half of the chain is hanging from the 2nd hand. A single fast twirl toward the targets cranium, while the 2nd hand (with half the chain twirling) moves away from side of body and towards target, in an overhead swoop. A good chance to Stun Minions.
Tier 2 power:
Name: Dirt Bath
Damage: Single Target, Close Ranged, High Lethal DoT
Effect: Mag. 1 KnockDown, Mag. 2 Immobilize
Recharge: Moderate (8 to 10 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Chain around ankles. Starts like a Cowboy trying to lasso a bull at a rodeo, chain spins above head, chain goes around targets ankles, Ends with a section of the chain breaking off (stays on target) as you pull the chain back. Target is immobilized, with a good chance to knockdown Minions/Lts.
Tier 3 power:
Name: Rattle Jaw
Damage: Single Target, High Smashing
Effect: Mag. 1 KnockUp, Mag. 1 Disorient
Recharge: Moderate to Slow (8 to 12 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Chain hits jaw. 1st hand at Start of chain (hip height), 2nd hand at half the chains length (hip height). About half of the chain is hanging from the 2nd hand. A single fast to moderate twirl toward the targets jaw, while the 2nd hand (with half the chain twirling) moves away from side of body and towards target, but not an overhead swoop, under, with a good chance to knockup Minions/Lts.
Tier 4 power:
Name: Tension
Damage: n/a
Effect: +ToHit, +Dmg
Recharge: Long (80 to 90 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Both Hands hold the chain up slightly (hip height). Checking to see how Strong the chain is by tugging on it. Chain can have a build up glow.
Tier 5 power:
Name: Choker
Damage: Single Target, Close Ranged, High Lethal DoT
Effect: Mag. 4 Hold, -Resistance DeBuff
Recharge: Moderate to Slow (8 to 12 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Chain around Neck. Starts like a Cowboy trying to lasso a bull at a rodeo, chain spins above head, chain goes around targets neck. Ends with a section of the chain breaking off (stays on target) as you pull the chain back. Target tries to remove chain. A good chance to hold Minions/Lts/Bosses.
Tier 6 power:
Name: Taunt/Provoke
Damage: Targeted AoE/Single Target Taunt
Effect: Mag. 41 Taunt/Mag. 23 Taunt
Recharge: Fast (6 to 8 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Swings chain above head. 1st hand at Start of chain (hip height), 2nd hand above head. About Half of the chain is being twirled.
Or, the 2nd hand is also at hip height and just twirling half a chain on the side of the body. Chain can be twirled at a very slow pace, in a provoking manner, with the 2nd hand moving slightly in a circular motion (2nd hand follows the chain in its rotation a bit) to make it seem like thats whats causing the chain to sustain such a slow rotation without falling limp. (this animation might be too hard to implement though)
Or, just a regular taunt hand motion from the 1st hand at the Start of the chain (thats not twirling the chain, holding the chain still), while the 2nd hand is still twirling half the chain at the side of the body.
Tier 7 power:
Name: Whirly Bird
Damage: PBAoE, Moderate to Heavy Smashing
Effect: Mag. 1 KnockDown, Mag. 1 Disorient
Recharge: Slow (10 to 12 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Swings chain above head. Enemies hit in head will be seeing birds (figuratively). 1st hand at Start of chain, 2nd hand swings half a chain above head once. Hits max of 16 targets in the vicinity, with a good chance to knockdown Minions/Lts.
Or, 2 hands at Start of chain (2 to 3 links showing below hands), and both hands twirl chain above head once.
Tier 8 power:
Name: ... any suggestions? (maybe Sweeper)
Damage: Close Cone (Arc: 130), Heavy to High Smashing
Effect: -ToHit DeBuff, Mag. 1 Disorient
Recharge: Moderate (8 to 10 sec.)
Animation: 2 handed. Swings chain in a cone! 1st hand at Start of chain, 2nd hand swings half a chain in a cone once. Hits max of 8 targets. A violent burst of wind from the swing picks up debris and directs it at the enemies eyes, making it harder for them to see. (similar momentum, not the posture, of a baseball pitcher winding up and launching a ball)
Tier 9 power:
Name: Crack Jaw
Damage: Single Target, Superior Smashing
Effect: Mag. 2 KnockUp, Mag. 2 Disorient
Recharge: Slow (10 to 12 sec.)
Animation: Just like Rattle Jaw, but with a slightly longer animation? Chain can be twirled slow on 1st rotation, then on 2nd rotation fast, then on 3rd attack!? A good chance to knockup Minions/Lts/Bosses.
Please post alternate power Name suggestions, and alternate animations!
Please try not to use 'Chain' in the powers name, only because of the alternate looks Chain Melee might get later.
Also, post any alternate looks you can think of for Chain Melee. Ahhh.. like:
- Leather whip laced with metal ball-bearings. (just note: it wont play/animate like a Whip)
- Rope with embedded Horse Shoes.
- Spiked Ball at End of the chain.
- Flaming chain links. (Ummm... not like Ghost Rider's!)
- Larger chain links with Saw like Teeth!
- Chinese 9 Section Metal Whip! (video)
etc..
*please note: There is no Extreme Damage attack because it needs to stay fast paced, very fluid in its animation and casting. Has to be fun to look at / and play, even at the cost of a tiny bit less damage! Think Claws Melee.
Plus, Whirly Bird (the PBAoE) has a bit extra damage (moderate to heavy dmg, leaning to heavy), which will even things out allot. This makeup will make this powerset team friendly with its PBAoE and Cone, and also Solo friendly with its Single Target attacks, since some of the Single Target Attacks will land more often (-Def), with a bit more damage (-Res).
Anyways, Damage alone doesnt make a powerset fun, its the mitigation!
It would just suck if there was no knockdown!
Thanks,
D-Man!