What exactly is it you feel the sets need?
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
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I feel really silly because I'm really liking my Ice/Time and Grav/FF trollers. But I could see them needing a looking at in comparrison to the other control sets (I'm looking at you Plant and Earth).
Ice works decently, it just requires a different play style.
I'll agree that grav is pathetic and seriously needs a revamp.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Grav needs some love, no doubt about that. Removing the kb from wormhole and finding a way to make dimension shift useful (soft mez?) would go a long way.
But what exactly is wrong with Ice? I've always thought it was one of the better sets because of Ice Slick's amazing mitigation. I'd take Ice over Mind any day. About the only problem I can think of is Frostbite conflicting with it, but aoe immobs are always a bit situational anyway. Even earth has the same issue with Stone Cages and Earthquake; it's all about the tradeoff.
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Gravity has so many fusses I can't even remember. Horrible power disposition(like the first hard control aoe besides aoe hold at lvl 26 - AND - it is at least meh if not just plain broken), propel with his infinite animation, targeted aoe intangible (!!! in the land of incarnate stuff this is just like HEY PLEASE HATE ME!), poor secondary effect. Just to summarize, there are lot of threads with deeper analisys. The only good thing about gravity is probably the pet.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
What exactly is it you feel the sets need?
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Ice is simply too much redundant. Stuff is usually at slow cap with really a few attacks, so what? Add more slow. Ice slick lost his beauty long ago with the kd nerf and it's the only aoe semi-hard control available besides a pbaoe long recharge hold. Shiver is just "add more slow onto slow" and arctic air is like a "I do everything, but nothing good". Finally, Jack Frost is really, really silly.
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Like Milady's Knight, I agree that Gravity could use a few tweaks to make it better. There have been a lot of ideas thrown around, and even BaB confirmed (before he left) that at least the animation time was being looked at.|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
Gravity has so many fusses I can't even remember. Horrible power disposition(like the first hard control aoe besides aoe hold at lvl 26 - AND - it is at least meh if not just plain broken), propel with his infinite animation, targeted aoe intangible (!!! in the land of incarnate stuff this is just like HEY PLEASE HATE ME!), poor secondary effect. Just to summarize, there are lot of threads with deeper analisys. The only good thing about gravity is probably the pet.
Ice is simply too much redundant. Stuff is usually at slow cap with really a few attacks, so what? Add more slow. Ice slick lost his beauty long ago with the kd nerf and it's the only aoe semi-hard control available besides a pbaoe long recharge hold. Shiver is just "add more slow onto slow" and arctic air is like a "I do everything, but nothing good". Finally, Jack Frost is really, really silly. |
But Ice, other than being a very low damage set, is OK as it is. If you don't understand how great Arctic Air is, then you just don't understand the set. Ice is all about stacking different types of control effects: Slow, knockdown, -Recharge, Confuse, afraid and Holds. Arctic Air alone combines Slow, Confuse and Afraid in a toggle power. It does not provide complete control by itself, but is supposed to be stacked with other effects. The stacking slows are intended to provide for different play options: AA for melee, Shiver for ranged. There are lots of control sets with powers that shouldn't generally be used together or are somewhat wasteful if used together -- Illusion has both Superior Invis and Group Invis. Like Ice, Earth has an AoE Immob that conflicts with its AoE Knockdown. My Ice/Storm uses AA continually, but actually picked up Shiver during his Inherent Fitness Respec. I use it periodically and find it worthwhile even though I also have Snow Storm.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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quoting another user, exactly my complaints about ice set|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Like Milady's Knight, I agree that Gravity could use a few tweaks to make it better. There have been a lot of ideas thrown around, and even BaB confirmed (before he left) that at least the animation time was being looked at.
But Ice, other than being a very low damage set, is OK as it is. If you don't understand how great Arctic Air is, then you just don't understand the set. Ice is all about stacking different types of control effects: Slow, knockdown, -Recharge, Confuse, afraid and Holds. Arctic Air alone combines Slow, Confuse and Afraid in a toggle power. It does not provide complete control by itself, but is supposed to be stacked with other effects. The stacking slows are intended to provide for different play options: AA for melee, Shiver for ranged. There are lots of control sets with powers that shouldn't generally be used together or are somewhat wasteful if used together -- Illusion has both Superior Invis and Group Invis. Like Ice, Earth has an AoE Immob that conflicts with its AoE Knockdown. My Ice/Storm uses AA continually, but actually picked up Shiver during his Inherent Fitness Respec. I use it periodically and find it worthwhile even though I also have Snow Storm. |
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I've gone on record as saying ice control is the weakest primary for doms many moons ago. People who complain about grav apparently think the one trick pony known as Ice Slick is teh ro0xx0r.
That set is bipolar. An AoE sleep that causes damage??? An AoE knockdown that gets foiled by immobs??? An PBAoE aura that causes confusion AND fear, plus slows the targets so much they don't attack each other??? Shiver that does nothing but slow when everything else already has the targets at the slow cap??? PB AoE hold and aura when everything else is ranged control??? The best ice control character I ever made was earth control with the crystal power effect colored ice blue. |
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Then you don't understand Arctic Air. AA is a damage mitigation power. Foes in AA are really "confused." Sometimes a confuse pulse may hit that foe, but most of the time, the purpose is not to cause that foe to attack other foes -- it is to cause that foe to run around within the aura while interrupting any attack that foe might have done. Then the pulse wears off and the fear hits, causing the foe to want to run away instead of attack, but he is slowed so he can't leave very fast . . . giving more time for another confuse pulse to hit so he turns around . . . and over and over.|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
quoting another user, exactly my complaints about ice set
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All of the toggle control powers, Hot Feet, Conductive Aura, Choking Cloud, Arctic Air, and the new Time one are all supposed to be part-time control. Otherwise, a full-control toggle power would be overpowered. AA is really designed to limit about 60-75% of the damage in melee, which it does quite well when slotted correctly.
As for the rest of the set: AoE Sleep that causes damage? Same as Earth, only Earth's is PB AoE (which is worse).
AoE Knockdown with an AoE Immob that prevents knockdown? Same as Earth, only Ice Slick has a higher chance to knockdown.
Shiver only Slows? Actually, Shiver's most important component is the -Recharge. It allows you to control this group around you while you slow that group over there to a crawl and keep them from firing off most attacks more than once.
PB AoE Hold when everything else is ranged? Uh, Arctic Air isn't ranged! And besides, Illusion has a PB AoE hold with everything else ranged. The Devs put positional aspects to the control sets, and this is part of it. Compare to Earth, where the AoE Hold is ranged but the sleep is PB AoE.
If Ice did more damage or had a more durable, damaging pet, I seriously doubt you would have these complaints. Instead, Ice has an interesting playstyle that gives you the option of being in melee or ranged. Is it the most effective set? No, but I don't see that there is a problem such that the set needs to be re-worked.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I do feel like Shiver needs something...maybe a pulsing chance to hold for 3 seconds kinda like Distortion Field...and it should let you add hold sets in there so you can use the Lockdown proc.
Gravity has a nifty AoE control, but above and beyond that, it's pretty lacking. In truth, I don't think a whole lot needs to happen to bring it up to snuff, but I'm going to go out on a limb with it anyway.
Lift - Give it the same damage as Levitation. Swap its position with Gravity Distortion.
Propel - Animation needs to be cut severely. Lock the animation for as long as the summon alone, and then allow freedom of movement. I've seen people suggest turning it into an AoE or cone, which I certainly wouldn't mind, but the animation time is abysmal. I'd be happy with that being reduced alone.
Wormhole - Stun BEFORE teleport.
Above and beyond this, Gravity needs a secondary effect of some sort to give it an identity. By itself, -speed doesn't really cut it. I saw in another thread someone suggest -Range, which the more I think about it, the more I love it, and it fits beautifully thematically. You're a Gravity Controller - bullets should hit the ground before they hit you, right? 
In any case, these alone would make a big difference in the set, but I personally have one more problem with Gravity - Dimension Shift.
I'm sorry, this powers awful (as is Black Hole in my not so humble opinion). I know, I'm going to have an army march into this thread and proclaim the wonders of having this ugly dog in their power tray when fit hit the shan. Well, all I can really say is I'd love to have a power that's useful the majority of the time instead of something so situationally useful (and potentially aggravating to a team) that you actively seek out reasons to use it.
I've seen a lot of suggestions like a reverse Earthquake or Ice Slick. I've even seen it suggested that Dimension Shift be turned into a form of Jolting Chain which could work thematically.
Personally, I'd love to see a Gravity Well type of power. A summoned entity that actively pulls mobs caught in the AoE toward it. Combined with a secondary effect like -Range, this could make for a pretty devastating soft control that also fits well with the Gravitation theme. Protection for the ranged toons, a means of controlling unwanted knockback which irritates the melee, and a wonderful clump of mobs for everyone to cut loose with AoE's on. Wormhole followed up with a Gravity Well could also help keep stunned mobs from wandering all about. And it gives Gravity another "unique" power. (Unless copied and pasted to Dark Miasma, of course).
But then, that's just my personal take, so it might be woefully overpowered, or just not terribly exciting.
In any case, Gravity isn't the most terrible set in the world, as does what it needs to, just not as convincingly as everything else. In my eyes, Lift, Propel and Wormhole are the biggies, with the added caveat that Gravity powers need a secondary effect to give it a little more kick.
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Originally Posted by Mordakar
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Personally, I'd love to see a Gravity Well type of power. A summoned entity that actively pulls mobs caught in the AoE toward it..... |
I would too, however, I think the devs said that the engine can't support the whole "pull mobs to a certain spot"...they'd love to do it; but as of right now they don't think it can work.
Edit:
I could be wrong though...
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Knockup patch should be doable though, and something that we really haven't seen before.
The hard part is getting them to consider completely changing a power, since it's something they try very hard not to do.
Ironically, the only time I am aware of a power being completely changed to something new also involved Gravity Control -- when Fold Space was replaced by Singularity.
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More recently, Conserve Power in Electric Armor was changed to Energize, a self heal.
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Originally Posted by MTS
Knockup patch should be doable though, and something that we really haven't seen before.
The hard part is getting them to consider completely changing a power, since it's something they try very hard not to do. Ironically, the only time I am aware of a power being completely changed to something new also involved Gravity Control -- when Fold Space was replaced by Singularity. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
It really depends on which AT you're talking about for ice control. It's alright on controllers (but nothing special), trollers get alot more mileage out of soft control, and it has a mass immob, meaning it can use the grav anchor proc to great effect. Ice control for doms is signifiicantly worse as doms tend to do better with hard control.
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Right, but Energize still has the same endurance discount that Conserve Power did, so despite the name change and the heal it's not a complete break from it.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
More recently, Conserve Power in Electric Armor was changed to Energize, a self heal.
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One thing I was thinking about as a possible power in the same vein as Dimension Shift would be a -10000% damage debuff. The only problem is that it would probably be too powerful against things like trials bosses that are immune to other mez effects.
Ice Control is my favorite control set. There are some flaws but it's not horrible. IMO the #1 thing people get wrong with Ice is trying to use Shiver as a primary control power. Probably around 50% of the Ice characters I see in game skip Arctic Air. IMO they've forfeited a right to comment about the set.
There are, however, some issues with the set I'd like to see address (most likely not all of these would be implemented together):
- Jack Frost is awful. My recommendation: Instead of just making him a tank, give him a PBAoE heal and an ally-castable anti-mezz power he casts on the owner, 75% uptime. These greatly reduces Ice Control's difficulty cliff (the difference between having mezz protection and not having it with this set is night and day, and IMO very unbalanced).
- Arctic Air's endurance cost should be cut in half. As great as it is, paying the same cost as Hot Feet for this power feels out of wack.
- Flash Freeze really needs another look. The more I look at Ice next to Fire, Plant, Earth, etc, and the damage capability/control therein, the more I think this power should just do a Mag 3 stun. For one thing, the current design doesn't work at all if you have Reactive slotted, because the DOT from the rock bottom damage wakes enemies up. I'm not crazy about turning Ice into a Fire clone, but that's where the game has pushed us in a lot of ways.
Ice has a different playstyle, if you want to get the most performance out of it, you have to be in melee or close range most of the time.
I slot Ice Slick with enough rech to make it perma and then add 2 range enhancers. This combined with Stealth gives it enough range to mitigate the alpha.
Ice slick is not the control to completely rely on though. Once the mobs are flopping you move into close range and allow AA to take hold. Too many Ice controllers/Doms are impatient and miss this critical step.
While AA is taking hold you cast shiver on the spawn. Shiver + AA puts +3 mobs at the -Rech cap. Once you have done this you can cancel Ice Slick with Frostbite which, when combined with AA and Shiver, will put +4 mobs at the -rech cap.
At this point the ice/ controller lets the team kill the spawn, the Ice/ Dom kills the spawn him/herself.
For a controller Ice/Rad is the Bomb. AA + Choking cloud is awesome mitigation. If you have the Contagious Confusion proc slotted in AA, Lock Down chance to hold in Choking Cloud, and Grav Anchor chance to hold in Frostbite you hit the 95% mitigation mark easily.
For the Dom some benefit is gained by being perma (not as much as the other Dom primaries admittedly) such as not having to worry about AA being detoggled. A melee/close-centric primary like Earth or Thorns is the best pairing and taking the Ice APP for some S/L defense and sleet is also a good choice for the Dom.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Really If they at least removed the utterly trivial damage (which I doubt anyone would miss) so that it didn't proc DoT Interfaces, and fix the Duration:Recharge (Why exactly did they feel it needed twice the recharge of Mass Hypnosis?) I think that would go a LONG way to improving the power.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
- Flash Freeze really needs another look. The more I look at Ice next to Fire, Plant, Earth, etc, and the damage capability/control therein, the more I think this power should just do a Mag 3 stun. For one thing, the current design doesn't work at all if you have Reactive slotted, because the DOT from the rock bottom damage wakes enemies up. I'm not crazy about turning Ice into a Fire clone, but that's where the game has pushed us in a lot of ways.
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@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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This. Ice's true problem is alpha strikes, not control ability in general. Ice slick is great, AA is monstrous, and shiver is a lot better than most think. The real issue with the set is how to get those controls rolling, when no matter how many slows you pile on that first round of attacks is still coming for you.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Really If they at least removed the utterly trivial damage (which I doubt anyone would miss) so that it didn't proc DoT Interfaces, and fix the Duration:Recharge (Why exactly did they feel it needed twice the recharge of Mass Hypnosis?) I think that would go a LONG way to improving the power.
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Knockdowns delay alphas, but those powers are still sitting there, ready to be fired the moment the mob regains its feet for even an instant. Slows greatly mitigate everything *after* the alpha, but can't stop that first round. To actually *negate* those attacks, you've got to get in there with AA and convince the mobs to waste them on their friends, or else defeat them before they ever get a chance to act (iffy without an every-spawn hard mez like an AoE stun).
Fixing flash freeze would fill this hole. It can stay a sleep (giving ice an every-spawn *hard* mez on top of all the soft controls would probably be a bit over the top), but just remove the trivial tick of damage and look at the duration/recharge ratio - note that that tick of damage does more than just render it useless with interface, it requires that the sleep be delayed so it doesn't break itself, leading to you taking partial alphas on use, which is a big part of why the power is currently extremely bad. This would give you that critical opening to get in and let AA start confusing stuff, without the randomness or necessity for cover/excessive slot+power investment (range+stealth?) of ice slick. Flash freeze -> run in with AA on -> lay ice slick as stuff starts getting confused -> profit.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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My only complaints with any of your suggestions are:|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
- Jack Frost is awful. My recommendation: Instead of just making him a tank, give him a PBAoE heal and an ally-castable anti-mezz power he casts on the owner, 75% uptime. These greatly reduces Ice Control's difficulty cliff (the difference between having mezz protection and not having it with this set is night and day, and IMO very unbalanced).
- Arctic Air's endurance cost should be cut in half. As great as it is, paying the same cost as Hot Feet for this power feels out of wack. - Flash Freeze really needs another look. The more I look at Ice next to Fire, Plant, Earth, etc, and the damage capability/control therein, the more I think this power should just do a Mag 3 stun. For one thing, the current design doesn't work at all if you have Reactive slotted, because the DOT from the rock bottom damage wakes enemies up. I'm not crazy about turning Ice into a Fire clone, but that's where the game has pushed us in a lot of ways. |
- if Jack Frost gets moved into a support route, I'd like reliable (read: 100% uptime on that anti-mez power) support, not something I have to constantly monitor my wildly overflowing buff bar for and hope that the somewhat inept pet AI uses well (I'd personally actually rather see him become a strong damage pet, considering how abysmal the rest of Ice Control is for that purpose, but, that's another topic altogether).
- If your Flash Freeze suggestion got used I would have to respec again, and think very hard about what to drop to pick it up.
What I'd actually really, really like to see done to Ice Control would be to have the Afraid effect removed from Arctic Air and the Confuse chance increased significantly. I don't feel it would be an overpowering increase to damage output since the victims will almost always be at the -rech cap against an Ice Controller, but it would, in my opinion, make the power feel a lot better.
I would also definitely approve of keeping the (currently ludicrous) endurance cost on it the same, if it could get a damage component attached to it. I wouldn't expect it to be as strong as Hot Feet because it has better control, but something would be nice - especially since that would let it leverage Interface. That would be a nice little boon for Ice Control come Incarnate content, where the set basically falls apart due to practically everything being immune to Ice Slick and much more resistant to Arctic Air.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
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I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Although Ice Slick is amazing, I think Arctic Air might be the defining power of the set. My Ice/Time's MO is to Ice Slick (when available) and run into a mob and just, well, chill. Massive debuffs and slows, and that fear component of AA means everything is trying to run away from you... very... very... slowly...
I see the low damage as a plus- I draw even less aggro and can just chill in melee range while the world grinds to a halt.
If I had one wish for the set, it would be that the AoE immob didn't have the -KB, so I could pin mobs on my Ice Slick without negating it.
Grav... yeah, Grav is a hot mess. Very pretty, but a total mess. Propel is a hilarious power, and very fun. No other power lets you hurtle a toilet at your enemy. Too bad the animation is so slow the toilet usually end up hitting a dead enemy.
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Or aggro after...
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Originally Posted by Mordakar
Wormhole - Stun BEFORE teleport.
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I think AA is great in most content, but against the incarnate enemies it's a bit of a death sentence. You aren't going to ward off a Victoria with it, and War Walkers will fall on you. When I run into melee with my Ice Dom, I throw out a Glacier, then throw a second hold at any Victorias I can see, then run out of melee range and immobilize the group so they can't chase me. Being up close to them for any period of time is much too dangerous. During Lambda I actually keep AA turned off, because the extra aggro it attracts is worse than the control it provides.
The other really significant thing that comes across to me at high levels is that spamming Frostbite is often better than relying on subtlety, because of interface. There used to be at least some kind of balance between spamming/not spamming the immobilizes, but Interface more or less killed that.
I do use Ice Slick sometimes, but more as an opener when Glacier is unavailable or when I need to cast around a corner. In fairness though, IMO Glacier is a LOT better on a Dominator than on many Controllers, because you can be sure bosses won't just one-shot you after you run in.
Wow, what a completely different viewpoint 2 people can have.
I feel that my Ice/Storm controller is the most dominant force in the game. I can with ease handle 2 - eight man groups and in fact can in a pinch lockdown 3 or 4 for a short time.
Can I defeat them? Not for a very long time - but I can CONTROL them, indefinately.
Add even a single damage doer and we can cruise through with ease at +2 x 8. I understand Ice/Gravity is for control and they do it very well. The others do more damge - that is a given but they can't completely remove a threat as easily.
...please, please put an eye at gravity and ice control!
I can accept powersets performing better than others in specific situations.
Heck, I can also accept powerset performing better in *every* situation.
But I cannot accept powersets being completely or almost ignored by the playerbase because they're *seriously* underperforming in every situation. I mean, the gap between ice/gravity and the other control powerset is way, way too wide.
We all know the big issues around these two, it just feels strange that devs are not even having an eyeblink on it. At least AFAIK.