If you could put an end to "Lol Stalkers" what would you do?
By
Blackleviathan,
Posted on: 2011-11-15 19:03 in Stalkers
Quote:
No, no, no a million times no. I have contacts in the russian maffia I will ask to kneecap anyone who makes hide a click power.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
[*] Change it from a Toggle to a slottable click with a recharge rate slightly more than the average of buildup, and duration closer to hasten. keep current stats
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Auto maybe. Click? no.
dear god no.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
Basically I'd
1-3:I think Stalkers could identify themselves amongst their melee damage contemporaries by becoming the "Fight smart, not hard" AT currently there's a bit f that, AS means they only attack when the situation is ideal for them, /Nin already has aspects of this idea built into it The inherent Hide would be there to make hide more valuable, and increase the sense of sneakiness desired for the stalker AT. Instead of the always on, perfect stealth of current hide, you'd have the option to throw up perfect invisibility for a limited time to apply it intelligently, or use it to rush through creative slotting and IO sets to be on perma, players who preferred constant Hide could manage it, but it wouldn't be the only definig aspect of stalkers, and most importantly, People wo don't want it wouldn't be forced into it. 4: It makes sense that my Dark Stalker spawns fear on his enemies when he successfully AS's someone, dark powersets are always about fear. But why does my Elec stalker do it? And Not a stun or weak hold? Wouldn't it make more sense if the electricity jumped from the body of the downed enemy and shocked his companions? if Kinetic melee created a pulsing knockdown effect? If Em released a stunning pr blinding explosion of energy and light? I just think there should be more overall variety in the sets when it comes to this. If it accomplishes the same thing, preventing enemies from attacking immediately after AS, why not make it so me and the next stalker are actually different in a meaningful way? 5: as part of my general idea to add survivability by encouraging "active" defense, Make the new Secondary tier 1 something that's more control than protection. A Toggle that has a high percentage proc to stun for elec, an auto that procs fear, a click that emits pulsing sleep. Something 6a: This is where it gets serious. Making the Primaries do more of their natural secondary effects creates a signifigant variety amongst stalkers, more -def for weaspon sets more -end for Elec, this is important for two reasons
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
No, no, no a million times no. I have contacts in the russian maffia I will ask to kneecap anyone who makes hide a click power.
Auto maybe. Click? no. dear god no. |
The rest though I think is VERY VERY interesting ideas, almost so interesting that you should kinda PM a dev of these changes, even though I realise they'd likely turn down the idea!
Also, regarding an earlier comment that Stalkers aren't changed because not enough noise is made about them, I kinda think it is a strong noise indeed that there actually exist so few level 50 Stalkers or Stalkers that have existed for more than 50 days, because this obviously is not only a statement that people are choosing not to play the AT, some people directly avoids the AT, even on teams!
Then again, regarding last part I guess this isn't that much of a voice as this has apparently been the case for a long time (Stalkers been unliked). Despite of that, I sadly don't have ideas myself of how to improve Stalkers, because sadly, I don't think that my Stalkers lack anything at all! I like the changes talked about in this thread, and could definitely see them getting into the game, but I wouldn't need them... Then again, I'm only one person...
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Quote:
You will be surprised what they read. Lets just say there might be an end to "Lol Stalkers" sooner than you think.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I think its silly to think the devs read this forum.
I think the easiest way to end the LOLSTALKER issue in the game is to port ninjitsu to scrappers and eliminate the last few stalker holdouts. They are already the rarest AT in the game post 20, once the Ninjitsu hold outs reroll to scrappers you won't read LOLSTALKER anymore. My response is the most realistic in terms of actually happening. |
Either way most of you made some great suggestions, lets hope the devs will impliment some of the stuff listed here.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
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Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
Does not really work to well on what your saying. Consider how mobs are vaporized in less than a second on most end game teams you would barely have any time to contribute. Cant kill wounded mobs if they are insta-killed.
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Originally Posted by jwbullfrog
I'd like to propose a different way of ending the Lol Stalkers arguement. It involves a rethink of what a stalkers greatest ability is.
The greatest ability of Stalkers is not AS but their Hide. Hide lets a Stalker go almost anywhere at will. You can stand behind (or under) something as tough as a GM and they'll never see you until you do something offensive. You can decide what fights you want to get into and (combined with placate) the speed of the engagement. As part of a group, Stalkers are not just 'gimped scrappers'. They should not be in the center of the fight but working around the edges picking off the weak and wounded. If a stalker has to hold the line in place of a scrapper or tank, you can (and I've seen it done brilliantly in the past) but you might want to suggest a more 'hit and run' style for your group. I dont think Stalkers need big changes, just people need to rethink how they are meant to be used. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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So let me get this straight...|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
You will be surprised what they read. Lets just say there might be an end to "Lol Stalkers" sooner than you think.
Either way most of you made some great suggestions, lets hope the devs will impliment some of the stuff listed here. |
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Actually, I had an idea.
What if as an inherent Stalkers could get a 97% or 98% chance to hit?
I know it doesn't seem like a lot. but I was running a quick tip mission last night, and even with 95% chance to hit, I missed 5 out of 13 attacks.
And it would tick stalker damage up a bit overall. Plus, it's totally unique.
Note: From a code level this might be impossible or really ungodly messy.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
I dont know about LOL stalkers....i just dont see that...
I do think they could improve hide a little more....like make it work against knives of artemis and drones for example...to make it more special then the usual concealment. Maybe actualy reduce the threat rating....hmm...maybe make it work like its own text description says its supposed to...meaning the stalker doesnt have it totaly supressed in stealth and is actualy still hard to see.
I disgree with the person who wanted it to be a click power and combined with build up....sorry this isnt retarded final fantasy or worlds of warcraft or aion that have a horrible system that wont let you even get someplace in a straight line and make it so you have things 30 levels below your character level able to kill you in one or two hits becasue the developers who make those games are retarded....
I also think if the assassin strike is going to have that long of recharge...require the player to be un-moving....and be interuptable.....then it should at least always hit.....its not like its super ranged like a sniper shot...so the stalker ends up taking more risks then a blaster anywise....right now the strike misses even boxes....which i am sorry....thats just too silly.
And then there is the health....i dont really mind having low health....but i do mind having a maximum possible health that lower then most everyone else....to a point that the enemies....like say for example Primal Earth Sutter fromthe Sutter Task force at 2 levels higher then you...ends up killing you in one shot becasue his attack does a damage over time effect that kicks in instantly and kills you.
Give them the ability to have an "I Win" button that kills anything in 1 hit.
What? you said "sky's the limit" 
But seriously...I don't know, I'm not the numbers guy. Give Stalkers some sort of AoE Assassin's Strike I say....make it so that it's not interupt'able.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
You will be surprised what they read. Lets just say there might be an end to "Lol Stalkers" sooner than you think.
.... |
You in some sort of closed, super-secret beta?
Or are you trying to impersonate GG with your "good things will happen
"?
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As someone who keeps trying to play stalkers, and keeps failing to enjoy them, this is by|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Beetle
I do not think sweeping changes are needed. Outside of outlier powersets in brutes and scrappers, and using the placate and AS mechanic, I think stalkers DPS versus single targets is just fine. The mechanic, however, is somewhat clunky, and does need to be tweaked. AoE needs to be addressed for many of the sets (lets face it Dark, Electric and Street Justice still have as much AoE as the scrapper/brute versions)
1. Make AS (outside of PvP) a normal attack power, 1.07 sec cast time, ditch the interrupt time. |
far the biggest change I would want to see personally. Even if it came at the cost of
somewhat lower damage.
The difference between Widow/Bane SoAs, and Stalkers, is summed up in the difference
in how fast and easily the SoA heavy hitters burst out of concealment, compared to how
clumsy the stalker generally is about it, for me.
If stalkers had as quick and easy a time running in and jamming their knife/hand/ball of
energy in somebody's kidney as the SoAs do, I think I'd enjoy them a lot more.
Yeah, I know, you don't have to rely on AS, and that stands out more on some primaries
than others, but Hide > AS is the signature of the Stalker AT. It should be the fuzzy feel
good of the AT, IMO, and at least for me, it just makes me feel impatient and bored in a
way even regular snipe powers don't make me feel.
I'm there. I'm in melee range, I've got a glint in my eye and I'm ready to murder something.
Hurry up and let me get to business.
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You'll pry my stalkers from my cold dead hands!
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Then I'll have the last stalkers in the game. That would be cool. Everyone would recognize me immediately. Heh. On the other hand "lolstalkers" would just end up being "lolgav" so maybe not so cool.
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Good things come to those who wait is all I will say. I just hope in the future we do not have a repeat of issues like Titan Weapons, Willpower, and Dual Blades where Stalkers get royally screwed over on either powersets or key powers.
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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
You in some sort of closed, super-secret beta?
Or are you trying to impersonate GG with your "good things will happen "? |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Stalkers shouldn't have increased DPS *AND* returned AoEs. That'd pretty much make blasters useless. If I'm correct, stalkers are meant to be an AT based around ST damage anyways.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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Stalker Willpower isn't gimped... and the only power they lost was Quick Recovery, just like Regen. I think it changes for the better (on Stalkers) to have Reconstruction vice Rise to the Challenge.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Good things come to those who wait is all I will say. I just hope in the future we do not have a repeat of issues like Titan Weapons, Willpower, and Dual Blades where Stalkers get royally screwed over on either powersets or key powers.
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My proposal addresses this. In addition to increased damage, give us the AoEs but reduce range/max targets so they are still viable but not as good. The examples I gave were if the scrapper version hits 10 enemies, give us a cap of 5. If the scrapper version hits 5, give us 3. Other limits might be If the scrapper cone is 15' give us 12. If the scrapper cone is 120 degrees, give us 90. etc.|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Stalkers shouldn't have increased DPS *AND* returned AoEs. That'd pretty much make blasters useless. If I'm correct, stalkers are meant to be an AT based around ST damage anyways.
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And make AS hit like a nuke. Let it kill bosses in 1 hit with buildup, and kill lieuts without buildup.
This doesn't step on blasters. But it does make us a bit more team friendly. The blaster, scrapper and brute are still better at AoE. The scrapper and brute are still more survivable. If you rol back out HP as I mentioned, then we're a tad more survivable than most blasters while those range capped hover blasters are right up there with us. But if you want the best damage vs a single target? that would end up being us. We wouldn't, however, be quite so gimpy vs x8 spawns if we can drop 3-5 enemies at a time instead of the current 1.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Stalkers shouldn't have increased DPS *AND* returned AoEs. That'd pretty much make blasters useless. If I'm correct, stalkers are meant to be an AT based around ST damage anyways.
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Which I think is kind of makes them 'moot' in the "end game" (not even counting incarnate trials).
Any AT can be looked at and said they aren't doing anything in a team when that team is steamrolling through content (on a small, medium or full team).
ST killers are great for solo'ing or teams of 2, maybe 3 or 4 people. After that, there's usually either so many buffs or debuffs or AoE damage (from either Blasters, Corrs/etc) that ST dmg is pretty low on the "needs" list.
If you're on a team of 4, for example, and everything is going well but the team struggles a little bit with the mobs that they are fighting (or whatever it may be); do you add a Stalker who can help out (maybe kill an annoying boss/lt or something) or would you rather invite someone that can buff, debuff, heal or just flat out kill the extra mobs/etc.?
Usually, to me, adding a buffer/debuffer is best (obviously depending on the team layout).
Don't get me wrong I don't hate Stalkers; I pretty much invite anyone that wants to come. I'm not AT discriminatory (I have 2 lvl 50 Stalkers that I actually enjoyed lvl'ing for the most part); but being a ST "King" is nice but....meh...
That's why I say have some sort of AoE Assassin's Strike. Maybe not with the same damage scale that AS has now but...*shrugs*
Or maybe instead of that, just make the AS debuff (of -tohit/fear) do more (higher mag, longer debuff, etc...)?
I'd also be for just getting rid of the ability to interrupt AS (except maybe in PvP). Usually in the incarnate trials there are so many effects going on you can't stand in melee range of mobs for the 2-4 seconds it takes to get AS off...so it's really a worthless power for most of the trials.
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I would definitely not make AS an AoE power. Removing the interrupt and cast time of the power would be more than sufficient. Also making it inherent and returning a sacrificed power would fix the lack of AoE in most of the Stalker sets.
As far as AoE goes, some sets are always going to better at AoE, for a stalker those are Electric, Spines and Street Justice right now. Beggars can't be choosers, and if you wish an AoE set, choose one, instead of ******** that the set that you did pick doesn't have AoE.
Again, it seems to me that the single most important thing to fix for the stalkers would be to remove the interrupt time from AS. This would make AS a practical power to use in an attack chain (with placate of course).
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Beetle
I would definitely not make AS an AoE power. Removing the interrupt and cast time of the power would be more than sufficient. Also making it inherent and returning a sacrificed power would fix the lack of AoE in most of the Stalker sets.
As far as AoE goes, some sets are always going to better at AoE, for a stalker those are Electric, Spines and Street Justice right now. Beggars can't be choosers, and if you wish an AoE set, choose one, instead of ******** that the set that you did pick doesn't have AoE. Again, it seems to me that the single most important thing to fix for the stalkers would be to remove the interrupt time from AS. This would make AS a practical power to use in an attack chain (with placate of course). |
*whew* Glad I never said to make AS into an AoE power....
I said to add an AoE power that acts the same as AS.
Just throwing out an idea that would possibly give them some more AoE goodness.
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That's actually fair enough to me. Not to mention all the interupt bugs there are.
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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
I'd also be for just getting rid of the ability to interrupt AS (except maybe in PvP). Usually in the incarnate trials there are so many effects going on you can't stand in melee range of mobs for the 2-4 seconds it takes to get AS off...so it's really a worthless power for most of the trials.
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http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Brawl index increased and figures balanced so they 'generally' do as much or more damage in an attack chain as their CoH cousin, the Scrapper, excluding AS as part of the chain as it's only used at the start of a combo. This is balanced by their lower survivability such as lower HP in combat. This is sort of working on the scale below (even if there isn't much difference in offense between Brute and Scrapper at high levels of fury):
Overall offense from weakest to strongest:
Tanker - Brute - Scrapper - Stalker
Overall survivability from weakest to strongest:
Stalker - Scrapper - Brute - Tanker
This plays on the role of 'glass cannon' for the Stalker, even when revealed.
Placate - placate up to four other targets surrounding placated enemy within 15ft
Assassin Strike - decrease interruption time and cast time (not too much)
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I'm pretty happy w Stalkers in general, though I admittedly have a bunch of brutes, scrappers, and tankers and only a few stalkers of unimpressive levels.
I can say precisely why I don't play Stalkers that much even though I really _want_ the AT to work.
A) Falling out of Hide and having to wait is very aggravating. My Dark Armor and Energy Aura non-Stalkers have better stealth than that! Hide should, IMO, work the same way.
B) A-Strike is frustrating due to the interrupt. It is very aggravating for me to set up, have a chance to strike, and have my strike interrupted. I get the effect the Devs were aiming for, adding some dramatic tension with the possibility of messing up such an attack. But in practice its just a nerf.
As far as AoE, I can live with being a ST focused character, so long as the ST damage Im doing is so high that it's usage is noticeable on a team. In a perfect world where everything was perfectly calculable, Stalkers would do more damage than an equivalent Scrapper to the same degree that they were less survivable. Thus if 10% less tough, then +10% damage.
A more useful Hide, non-interruptible AS, and commensurate damage vs mitigation ratios would fix the AT for me. I would also prefer that more powersets be proliferated to stalkers to open up more conceptual / game play opportunities.
How do you guys feel about the possible stalker changes? I think we still need our inherents to be inherent.
If you insist on stating things tautologically, it will always look tautologically silly.
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Look you, I posted that at 4 something am and I did not have the energy to go into detail, you know what I mean! lol *grumbles then climbs back into bed*
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
If you insist on stating things tautologically, it will always look tautologically silly.
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Basically I'd
- Remove Hide from every secondary pool
- Make it an inherent power
- Change it from a Toggle to a slottable click with a recharge rate slightly more than the average of buildup, and duration closer to hasten. keep current stats
- Give every Assassin's strike unique effects secondary effects.
- Replace the hide with a tier1 with some minor protection and heavy control aspect, click, toggle, or auto, depending on the set
- Increase the secondary effects of every primary to exceed Scrapper, tanker, and brute levels
I wanted to improve stalkers in a way that created a fun, unique playstyle, made them more valuable to teams, Allowed for more variety between stalkers, (including stalkers that don't or rarely use the "Hide, Buildup, AS, Placate" attack chain if they didn't want to), Allowed for primaries with AoE to be ported over, Meshed with the ideas "Staker" brings to mind and increased survivability without just turning them into scrappers, and didn't horribly eliminate the current intended stalker playstyle.1-3:I think Stalkers could identify themselves amongst their melee damage contemporaries by becoming the "Fight smart, not hard" AT currently there's a bit f that, AS means they only attack when the situation is ideal for them, /Nin already has aspects of this idea built into it
The inherent Hide would be there to make hide more valuable, and increase the sense of sneakiness desired for the stalker AT. Instead of the always on, perfect stealth of current hide, you'd have the option to throw up perfect invisibility for a limited time to apply it intelligently, or use it to rush through creative slotting and IO sets to be on perma, players who preferred constant Hide could manage it, but it wouldn't be the only definig aspect of stalkers, and most importantly, People wo don't want it wouldn't be forced into it.
4: It makes sense that my Dark Stalker spawns fear on his enemies when he successfully AS's someone, dark powersets are always about fear. But why does my Elec stalker do it? And Not a stun or weak hold? Wouldn't it make more sense if the electricity jumped from the body of the downed enemy and shocked his companions? if Kinetic melee created a pulsing knockdown effect? If Em released a stunning pr blinding explosion of energy and light? I just think there should be more overall variety in the sets when it comes to this. If it accomplishes the same thing, preventing enemies from attacking immediately after AS, why not make it so me and the next stalker are actually different in a meaningful way?
5: as part of my general idea to add survivability by encouraging "active" defense, Make the new Secondary tier 1 something that's more control than protection. A Toggle that has a high percentage proc to stun for elec, an auto that procs fear, a click that emits pulsing sleep. Something
6a: This is where it gets serious. Making the Primaries do more of their natural secondary effects creates a signifigant variety amongst stalkers, more -def for weaspon sets more -end for Elec, this is important for two reasons
- The increased secondary effects can either directly via -end or -dam or indirectly via DoT- or -def contribute to the survivabilty of the stalker while solo,without increasing HP or Defense
- This makes a stalker more valuable to a team, when he's laying on the debuffs.:
6b: Adding control effects to the secondary defense abilities lets them survive better, making them more fun to play, without just increasing the protection or HP to be more in line with scrappers, and adds new tricks to stalkers to make them stand out. It also makes them more valuable, as now they would be the unofficial third control AT in the game.Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
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