+4x8 question
By
BlackestNight,
Posted on: 2011-11-15 15:10 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Like I said, I've soloed arcs with the new mobs at high levels of difficulty. IDF have a fair amount less +tohit than Rularuu eyeballs, so I find them easier (other Rularuu mobs are easy). And I never said no inspirations (I actually said I use oranges quite a bit). Anything with a large amount of +tohit (larger than the 59% incarnate softcap) I try to beat with resistance and regeneration, not my defense. Others have tried to get to the 59% cap, which probably is much better for survivability.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
On a DM/SD not using insps with merely 45% def, you find Rularuu to be a hurdle but Resistance/IDF to be a cakewalk? I can't help but raise an eyebrow at that, seeing as my experience (including DM/SD) is so opposite I have trouble reconciling both ideas.
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TW/Elec Optimization
Well, this is what you said earlier:
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Which I interpreted as "My DM/SD can solo +4/x8/bosses/AVs without inspirations against any faction except Rularuu , but I choose not to because I don't like the time it takes".|
My DM/SD can solo at this pace, but I usually am too impatient for it, so I set his level at +1. What I mean by +4/x8 is: Bosses On AVs On Any faction except Rularuu [b]without inspirations. |
So that's where the main point of contention was from. My bad. If you use insps, yep, I have no problem believing that.
--
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@ Nihilii Not to be defending Dechs as well, he can do it well enough on his own. But you might have missed when some were mentioning about Malta being one of the tough mob groups to solo on 4/8 with and without incarnates. |
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Well, I didn't want to be showing a video of the entire mission. No one would want to see it and I don't want to store the footage on my computer.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I'm not questioning the deed, but its relevance in this particular topic.
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I know I can solo +4/x8 missions, I routinely do so when helping friends level their characters. Council fall easy enough without any inspirations at all, but even that Malta group only took a single small purple inspiration. One full spawn clearly drops more than one inspiration, so I know I'd be able to continue for a full mission at that pace, even chock full of Malta goons.
That was actually the design goal of the build, 32.5% defense to the majority of types. With that, I'd be able to handle just about anything, and a small purple would softcap me for the really really hard stuff.
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Oh, definitely. I understand where you come from. It's just that, judging by the video alone and absolutely nothing else, it shows that your character can defeat a spawn of council or malta.
To put it another way, it's "doing something at all" compared to "doing something at will". To show in a video you could do this reliably, you'd probably want to record whole missions, which is as you mention yourself a bother for a variety of reasons. Again, I don't doubt you can do this, just strictly speaking about the video itself, which is good as a proof of concept regardless.
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Yeah, long time between posts and I forgot that. Correction:|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Well, this is what you said earlier:
Which I interpreted as "My DM/SD can solo +4/x8/bosses/AVs without inspirations against any faction except Rularuu , but I choose not to because I don't like the time it takes". So that's where the main point of contention was from. My bad. If you use insps, yep, I have no problem believing that. -- You're reading things I'm not implying. If anything, I'm agreeing with him. I'm not questioning the deed, but its relevance in this particular topic. |
My DM/SD can solo all mobs without a large amount of +tohit, including nasties such as Arachnos, Longbow, Malta, Carnies, and Vanguard. I use inspirations on enemies that can hit me, though I can make through without them if I go much slower and more carefully, in most cases.
TW/Elec Optimization
Meh, all claims of +4x8 are just epeen and should be ignored.
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I actually think a detailed thread citing build, and what enemy groups are tractable for that build at 54/8, under what conditions etc. would be very useful. |
Originally Posted by Daemodand
Meh, all claims of +4x8 are just epeen and should be ignored.
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It'd be relevant to most of us in the way the scrapper pylon time thread is, however much that might be.
Probably moreso since a listing of surivival situations is going to very quickly become a more diverse and useful study than the very specific test a pylon presents.
I'd propose a format where some of the primary trouble makers are listed along with comments, something like:
Council: incarnate powers used but probably not needed, inspirations not needed
Carnies: Care, timing and attack sequencing required, must use destiny power for survival from time to time, inspiration use not absolutely necessary, but very helpful in cutting down on "retreats" Be especially cautious of spawns with the extra EBs (untill they get rid of those things)
Malta: destiny needed for survival, Watch the stun counter otherwise no serious issues
Arachnos: Lore potentially needed for spawns with multiple toxic threats, destiny (rebirth or barrier WILL be needed from time to time) Inspirations help a lot.
Arachnoids: Stock up on inspirations, this will not be possible at 54/8 without extensive use. Expect defeats
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We call that pre-i19 with a lot of purples.
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Originally Posted by masterpiece
I'd actually like to see a build that can solo a majority of opponents at +4/x8 without INCARNATES. Granted that seems like a task, especially on an SO build. I went IO's before I attempted a feat but I wonder if its possible.
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http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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THe caltropes are still bad then? I ask because I did tips to try out a new build I came up with on my Dark/Regen scrapper and to my astonishment she runs through the Caltrops as if they are not there...on the Sister Jocasta mission, I zoomed about the room gathering up as large a bunch of Knives as I could...never slowed down.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
The biggest PITA mobs for that scrapper are Knives of Artemis thanks to those damned caltrops.... I'm coming to kill you... eventually... seconds .
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And Knives of Artemis themselves were not inflicting much damage to my scrapper either.
When I completed the mission I was ready to go to the RWZ, and seek out more
Think I was only on 2/2 difficulty, no incarnate stuffs, though...not 4/8.
Hmm..not sure I have enough accuracy to do 4/8...it would be something like wiff, wiff, wiff, wiff, Oh pancake, wiff, wiff, wiff, Oh turkey feathers, wiff, wiff, Lisa storms off to the nearest inspiration seller to buy yellows.
Anyways, I am headed out to the game.
Lisa.
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Blasters are fun but they require specific builds to handle large amounts of aggro. Also, those builds are significantly lower damage than pure recharge and +damage builds, so a Blaster optimized for team fire support is going to struggle more solo but add massive damage to a team. I wouldn't consider Controllers in general that great for soloing at x8 either though... some are, but several primaries lack reliable AoE controls and about half of them have too little AoE damage to really take down large groups. They can theoretically do it but it'll be slow unless they have the right epic pool and secondary. Things like Fire/Kin or Plant/Storm steamroll mobs, but something like an Earth/Empathy or Ice/Cold are going to solo large spawns very, very slowly. At least pretty much any Blaster has (or at least has the option of having, assuming the right build) enough AoE damage to toast minions pretty fast so it's mainly just surviving the alpha and then fighting the Lts (and bosses if enabled, but bosses tend to be big trouble for most Blasters).|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I really don't play blasters anymore, except for kicks, and agree they have issues. It's probably more challenging to take on +2/x8 with an IOed out blaster than +4/x8 with a SOed controller. At least it would be, to me.
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Originally Posted by plainguy
@StrykerX
I have a AR Device that can solo 4/8, I needed Cardiac for endurance issues but beyond that I don't need anything else. But its a range cap hover blaster so I am really limiting the mobs coming against me sometimes just for the fact of being out of melee range. |
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You don't have to sacrifice so much dps for softcapped defenses, that I would call it a significant loss. 45% S/L defense and enough recharge to run a top ST dmg attack chain (typically 80-110% rchg from IOs) as well as a decent dmg buff isn't that hard to obtain in a build (price is a whole nother subject though).
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
Blasters are fun but they require specific builds to handle large amounts of aggro. Also, those builds are significantly lower damage than pure recharge and +damage builds, so a Blaster optimized for team fire support is going to struggle more solo but add massive damage to a team.
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I think since recently they just drop one patch of caltrops. On another note, DEs are also much easier than they use to be as Guardians don't use their massive tohit Quartz pet anymore (at least at level 50 ; haven't tried lower level DEs yet).| THe caltropes are still bad then? I ask because I did tips to try out a new build I came up with on my Dark/Regen scrapper and to my astonishment she runs through the Caltrops as if they are not there...on the Sister Jocasta mission, I zoomed about the room gathering up as large a bunch of Knives as I could...never slowed down. |
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| I'd propose a format where some of the primary trouble makers are listed along with comments |
So I think at best you can distinguish trends - like I don't think anyone would seriously argue Vanguard is easier than Council, regardless of the character played (then again, perhaps a plant dom spamming confuse might think otherwise...
), but something as specific as you mention doesn't seem possible, as if nothing else some of your examples already don't hold right for me.Edit: aah, I understand now. Thanks for the detailed explanation.
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Er build specific survial was actually kind of the whole point, and not the problem.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Problem with that is that factions can present significantly more or less risk based on your build, or perhaps even playstyle. There's stuff like Council or CoT (level 50 CoT) that I think everyone can agree is easy, but then for example Malta has been mentioned a few times and I just never had that much trouble with them. On the other hand Arachnos gives me fits on any character that hasn't 50%+ DDR, but not because of the toxic damage (which I never even notice), but because of the autohit defense debuffs. You can also see Combat and I, even playing the same character, have a different opinion on the relative difficulty of IDF/Resistance vs Rularuu.
So I think at best you can distinguish trends - like I don't think anyone would seriously argue Vanguard is easier than Council, regardless of the character played (then again, perhaps a plant dom spamming confuse might think otherwise... ), but something as specific as you mention doesn't seem possible, as if nothing else some of your examples already don't hold right for me. |
What I'd be interested in is exactly what the build specific survival metrics are.
So, I can say I'm playring an electric fire and arachnoids are flat out impossible at 54/8, at least not without unreasonable numbers of defeats or unsustainable inspiration use, with a build so others can understand this. Another player can say their elec/TW can play them with the odd insp (with reference to the spec they use) but it's damn unforgiving. Maybe someone who's got a build that can solo 54/8 arachnoids easily, without inspirations with an elec/fire (not sure how, but...) jumps in and points to their build, and what else it's good or bad for (maybe it's got issues with something else)
Another player might mention that their shield/Dark can wade in and go nuts (slowly) killing them all off. When talking about Devouring Earth, the Elec builds might have a far easier time at 54/8, particularly if they've capped their res, while the shield dark is going to be miserable or dead every time a quartz drops.
To my mind the problem isn't deltas in build, that's the point of such a thread. To build up a bit of a library of what works where, and how well.
The problem is going to be deltas in skill. I'm pretty sure there are players out there who could do a lot better than I do with my builds, but we'll probably be able to sort that out without too much guesswork.
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The time thing can be an issue. For me the higher settings are a challenge kind of thing. For example on my Claws/SR, I can survive some crazy stuff, but using a lot of difficulty and trying to get in your 5 tips for the day can take quite a while.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Lots of characters at their peak level of performance can manage solo +4x8 missions with most mob types, but they aren't going to be steamrolling by any means. If you define "manage" as "can complete the mission without too many deaths using all available methods of mitigation" then probably most Scrappers, Tankers and Brutes can handle it as can some Blasters and many Controllers. I wouldn't be at all surprised if every AT in the game has at least some build combinations that are capable of that trick.
However one thing none of them will be doing is running QUICKLY. It simply takes longer to kill +4 mobs than it does to kill +2 or even level. No build in the game will be able to kill +4 mobs as quickly as it can kill +2 mobs. Yes, a few corner cases can move efficiently enough to make the time/reward ratio favorable but those are very few and far between and they'll still take a good bit longer to complete the mission. |
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First of all it depends on whether you're prepared to use inspirations or not, and whether you'll be using incarnate abilities. If you want to wait 1:30 -> 2 minutes between each pull you can probably +4/x8 just about anything in the game on just about any set combination because of the judgement slot + barrier giving you enough god mode to soak an alpha and tear a spawn apart. Again, that's if you're prepared to go slowly.|
Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
What I'd be interested in is exactly what the build specific survival metrics are.
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Against malta, you'll want stun protection, endurance protection and high defence if you are melee. But if you are a perma dom, you might just be able to lock them all done without even acquiring aggro, so... it's really hard to say what the 'survival metrics' are.
Which leads to...
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
To build up a bit of a library of what works where, and how well.
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Er, I'll address your second point first: I'm not looking at powers, I'm looking at builds. I'm not expecting a categorical breakdown of every power in the game, I'm not sure how anyone could. This is about: This is my build, these are the groups it can confront at 54/8. These are groups it cant. Obviously there will be gaps. Not everyone is going to bother to fight elder snakes.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
First of all it depends on whether you're prepared to use inspirations or not, and whether you'll be using incarnate abilities. If you want to wait 1:30 -> 2 minutes between each pull you can probably +4/x8 just about anything in the game on just about any set combination because of the judgement slot + barrier giving you enough god mode to soak an alpha and tear a spawn apart. Again, that's if you're prepared to go slowly.
Against malta, you'll want stun protection, endurance protection and high defence if you are melee. But if you are a perma dom, you might just be able to lock them all done without even acquiring aggro, so... it's really hard to say what the 'survival metrics' are. Which leads to... Which is going to be a list of just about every useful power in the game, because they all serve a purpose (I suppose defining them as useful to begin with makes this a tautology :P ). Mass Hypnosis + permadom is going to make an effortless, if extraordinarily slow, run through. Footstomp is going to provide more mitigation (through knockdown + defeats) than what many people will give it credit for. Even just a list for carnies alone is going to be taking out specific abilities from every single set of every single archetype and defining the strategies useful. Then repeating that for every type of enemy. This thread would be collosal. |
And with regards to what's the rules are for waiting on barrier (or any destiny) plus judgement, and or inspiration use? It doesn't matter what you do as long as you're clear and honest about it. Be as clear as you can about what you did, and people can use that to assess your build's performance. There may need to be some clarifications from time to time, but a simple question might establish exactly what someone did when they say they used occasional purples, or if they had to wait for barrier to recharge for spawns with two dark ring mistrisses, or whatever.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
@StrykerX
Here is the thread with my AR Device its the last build I posted in that thread. I don't believe its near a Billion, though it might be 500 million.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=187775
As for the rest I don't know what to tell you. I have about 35 toons and 15 to 18 of them are level 50 IOed toons based around defense caps.
Just about all my 50's can do 4/8. Heck I have a petless mastermind DS Traps that can do 2/8.
But it takes time to do the TIP missions and eventually learning to play the market. I do not make the billions that some do but I make enough to create my toons.
I think the difference is you create builds around concepts. I create concepts around builds. Big difference. If I can't cap a build some way or another I either scrap the build and concept or accept the short comings of the build. EG Petless mastermind.
Positional is always gonna win out against Typed Defense. But you have to create the build based around it otherwise its useless.
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I only do +4x8 when I'm solo and rocking out.
When I'm teaming, I prefer to fight at whatever the team lead is set at, usually its low, and not for my survivability, but rather I don't like watching my team mates get frustrated by not being able to hit things and constantly face planting.
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This is mostly my experience with a Claws/SR scrapper. She rolls vs carnies at any diff, occasionally needs an inspire, but mostly everything misses.. Focused Acc helps to offset tohit debuffs.. Conserve Power helps whenever the end hits get lucky and stack up a bit.. DE and Quartz are that alts banes, tho, and to a lesser degree Nemesis, is I kill indiscriminately, I can end up giving them a lot of stacked Veng, which isn't good. Otherwise, mostly everyting is easy, since most all debuffs are irrelevant, but a bad patch of luck can always faceplant ya at +4 with a defense on;y build.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
True. The best build I have vs Carnies is my soft capped BS/Shield scrapper; thanks to the high def the death drain almost never hits, likewise with the various debuffs. I do have to be careful vs MI's and Dark Ring Mistresses since they have attacks that ignore positional def but I can solo 4x8 Carnie missions. It helps that most of them are weak to Lethal damage.
The biggest PITA mobs for that scrapper are Knives of Artemis thanks to those damned caltrops.... I'm coming to kill you... eventually... The mobs I fear with that character however are the Devouring Earth Guardians and those Quartz pets they drop... if I let them drop that thing I'm very likely to be eating dirt a few seconds later. |
Like CMAwesome, Knives are a big PITA, but 'd not say the biggest, as SR has -speed resistance, and I slotted for more, and I slotted for a lot of +speed, so while I will always hate the caltrops, I certainly have other alts that dislike them more..
I guess my point is, every alt that can run at +4/x8 is going to have some mobs or missions that will make death really a lot more likely at that setting, and some that they just laugh at. And it will vary from AT/power-combo to AT/power-combo. I am somewhat skeptical that all the people that claim they run at this setting face everything at that setting. I'm sure some stick to radios, and pick and choose. Some stick to tips, and again pick and choose. Some rerun certain mishes/arcs.. Some stick to certain TFs.. Or certain AE stories. I doubt any alt can run at that setting on ANY mish at a fast clip. I'm sure we all hedge against some mish types, or, if we don't avoid them, at least slow to a crawl occasionally vs some things.. There may be a few uber well built alts that run at +4/x8 and can face literally anything, but they are a lot less frequent than the forums would have you believe.
As a caveat, I consider Incarnate powers a bonus. As in, I generally still consider accomplishments based on if it can be done with IOs. I will grant that Incarnate powers have sorta changed the playing field. Maybe with all t4s well selected it becomes much easier. Much, much easier. I know it gets less tough, but I'm not sure the task ever becomes trivial, even with Incarnates.
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
Er, I'll address your second point first: I'm not looking at powers, I'm looking at builds. I'm not expecting a categorical breakdown of every power in the game, I'm not sure how anyone could. This is about: This is my build, these are the groups it can confront at 54/8. These are groups it cant. Obviously there will be gaps. Not everyone is going to bother to fight elder snakes.
And with regards to what's the rules are for waiting on barrier (or any destiny) plus judgement, and or inspiration use? It doesn't matter what you do as long as you're clear and honest about it. Be as clear as you can about what you did, and people can use that to assess your build's performance. There may need to be some clarifications from time to time, but a simple question might establish exactly what someone did when they say they used occasional purples, or if they had to wait for barrier to recharge for spawns with two dark ring mistrisses, or whatever. |
My Claws/SR Scrapper has her lvl shift. Runs Alpha extra damage (muscul) and Interface for even more damage (reactive), Skipped everything else (mostly didn't fit, but maybe willing to see some of the new options).
And she will solo anything without a huge acc bonus. I can only think of DE with quartz's and Nemesis' with stacked Veng, but perhaps I recall a shadow shard critter that also had stupic acc.
I don't like to regularly run missions at +4/x8 solo. That setting is more fun for teams, even small duos or trios, it just takes too long solo for me. On my tougher characters, I'll run at +3/x6 normally (+2 for non-incarnates).
Sans Incarnates, I only truly feel comfortable at fighting 8 man spawns that are +4 to me on my Kat/Inv scrapper and even with her I prefer to use some inspirations. I can run my Fire/Rad controller vs. +4/x8 sans Alpha with Clarion, but without Clarion I have trouble keeping enough inspirations handy for making break frees. My WP/Mace tanker has little trouble surviving, but the killing is too slow for my tastes, even with inspiration use. I have not tried it with my Fire/Ice tanker, but the RWZ challenge was pretty easy for him before the FA buffs; he might be a good candidate; I'll have to check it out (maybe that will give me the impetus to take the sleep set out of Frozen Aura and finally slot it for damage).
My Fire/Earth perma-dom could likely handle those missions with liberal (but sustainable) inspiration use, but I have never tried it. I guess I'll have to load her and the tanker in to check out sometime over the coming holiday.
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My Broadsword/Dark Armor scrapper makes quick work of Carnies. I'm nearly immune to end drain, my psi resistance is nearly capped, and I'm softcapped to all positions. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
+4x8 Carnies is pretty tough. I would like to see somebody beating them. I think eventually you are just going to lose on endurance and die slowly. What's worse is if a Mistress casts that "weakness" debuff on you. Good bye your tohit and endurance!
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I don't go especially quick at it, but it's definitely doable. If I'm at +2/x8 I just rip through them. I can solo a decent variety of enemy groups at +4/x8, but I usually don't because it gets tedious quickly. If I'm just going through missions looking for purples or running tip missions, I'll usually run at +0/x6 just for the additional speed.
Side note: It's always amused me that people call going through enemy groups quickly "steamrolling", because steamrollers actually move very, very slowly.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Actually, I do some of both. Sometimes I come up with a concept that demands certain builds, while other times I have a build idea and come up with a concept to fit it. I think the real difference is that you play a lot more at 50 (I only have five 50s, and three of them are semi-retired) while I play mostly low and mid level. I also only have two softcapped characters, though I do have a couple that will eventually be softcapped (forget price, you don't really have the slots to softcap in the 20s or 30s). My big problem is that I often lose interest in a character before hitting the point where I can afford a high end build and start yet another alt, which is why I have so many alts sitting in the teens through 30s. And among my 50s one is a team-focused Plant / Storm Controller (he can solo pretty well, but not +4/x8 since he's built for pure recharge rather than defense and Seeds doesn't hit everything) and one is a pre-I9 Blaster I've never updated with IOs. My Bane probably could solo a few things at +4/x8 (I haven't tried because he doesn't have the AoE to make x8 fun) and I could probably tweak my Archery/Energy Blaster's build to solo x8 spawns if I boosted his ranged defense, though that might require purples to maintain his recharge levels so I doubt I'll bother any time soon. And I'm actually considering redoing my Fire/Fire Tank's build since the buff to Fiery Aura... I suspect he could be pretty nasty with some heavy IO slotting. Maybe that'll be my next project if I lose interest in my current Crab.
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Originally Posted by plainguy
As for the rest I don't know what to tell you. I have about 35 toons and 15 to 18 of them are level 50 IOed toons based around defense caps.
Just about all my 50's can do 4/8. Heck I have a petless mastermind DS Traps that can do 2/8. But it takes time to do the TIP missions and eventually learning to play the market. I do not make the billions that some do but I make enough to create my toons. I think the difference is you create builds around concepts. I create concepts around builds. Big difference. If I can't cap a build some way or another I either scrap the build and concept or accept the short comings of the build. EG Petless mastermind. |
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
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@ Nihilii
Not to be defending Dechs as well, he can do it well enough on his own. But you might have missed when some were mentioning about Malta being one of the tough mob groups to solo on 4/8 with and without incarnates.
I guess Dechs was just showing us that Dark which in the past had the complaint of being weak can do just what many thought was too tough.
@StrykerX
I have a AR Device that can solo 4/8, I needed Cardiac for endurance issues but beyond that I don't need anything else. But its a range cap hover blaster so I am really limiting the mobs coming against me sometimes just for the fact of being out of melee range.
I think that a player does have to resolve himself to a particular build and play style to accomplish some of these feats. As an example a range cap hover blaster is going to have more success then a range cap blaster that is on the ground. I have seen players complain they didn't like hover, so they have to accept and resolve themselves that against certain moments they might put themselves into a jam.
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4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives