Why not look at something different? 
I've got an inv/ax/body toon I love to pieces.
Assuming a 'no limits' second build keeping those selections, what's the best dps I can squeeze out of the old warhorse?
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I haven't looked at Axe yet, but I will be posting some numbers for Kinetic Melee and War Mace later tonight. What exactly do you mean by no limits though? My methods haven't quite been no limits, but they have been stretching it a bit with the high recharge and whatnot.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Why not look at something different?
I've got an inv/ax/body toon I love to pieces. Assuming a 'no limits' second build keeping those selections, what's the best dps I can squeeze out of the old warhorse? |
Kinetic Melee:
I have two chains for KM. One w/ Gloom, and one using only KM attacks. I used numbers from red tomax's city of data to come up with these results. Not verified in Mids.
Chain 1: Quick Strike -- Smashing Blow -- Quick Strike -- Body Blow
*Requires 127.3% Recharge in Quick Strike*
This one is cool, requires only moderate recharge and puts out good DPS. This chain is also cool because it requires nothing more than your T1-T3 attacks. Not bad having the chain by level 4.
(*Note, normally when I do my calculations, if there are set bonuses in my slotting, like Armageddon, I go ahead and include it in my calculations so that it gives you the honest final result. This chain has no bonuses, so you will see a DPS 2-3 points less than my other numbers because I have no bonuses to include. This one I went Kinetic Combat for more defense)
Incarnates:
Alpha: T4 Musculature Core
Interface: T4 Reactive 75% DoT
Slotting:
Level 1: Quick Strike -- Dmg-I(A), Dmg-I(13), Mako-Dam%(13), Hectmb-Dam%(15), Zinger-Dam%(15), ExStrk-Dam%(17)
Level 2: Body Blow -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Mako-Dam%(11), Zinger-Dam%(11)
Level 4: Smashing Blow -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Mako-Dam%(7), Zinger-Dam%(9)
Calculations:
Chain Damage: 847.28
Chain Duration: 4.884 seconds
Attacks per 8.3 seconds: 6.80
Resistance Debuffs: 24%
DPS before debuffs: 173.48
DPS after debuffs: 215.12
Final DPS (w/ misses): 204.36
Conclusions:
Very decent chain that you can get early and it doesn't require a lot out of your build. 127.3% global recharge is very easy to achieve, and the chain is only 3 attacks. I haven't mentioned it before, but 3 attack chains are great. It's only 3 powers and 15 enhancement slots to invest. That leaves you with 52 slots to invest in the rest of your toon. To get 204 DPS out of that is pretty nice.
Chain 2: Quick Strike--Smashing Blow--Quick Strike--Gloom
*Requires 236.7%*
(Note: This chain gets a +4% IO set damage bonus from Armageddon. If Chain 1 had the same bonus, it would've had a DPS of 206.22. I just mention this so you can compare the two on the same level)
Incarnates:
Same as Chain 1
Slotting:
Level 1: Quick Strike -- Dmg-I(A), Dmg-I(13), Mako-Dam%(13), Hectmb-Dam%(15), Zinger-Dam%(15), ExStrk-Dam%(17)
Level 4: Smashing Blow -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Mako-Dam%(7), Zinger-Dam%(9)
Level 35: Gloom -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(36), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(37), Cloud-%Dam(37)
Calculations:
Chain Damage: 919.39
Chain Duration: 4.884 seconds
Attacks per 8.3 seconds: 6.80
Resistance Debuffs: 24%
DPS before debuffs: 188.25
DPS after debuffs: 233.42
Final DPS (w/ misses): 221.75
Conclusion:
Both chains will require approximately the same amount of global recharge. I put no recharges in Quick Strike, so the 127.3% must all come from global. The 236.7% that Gloom needs requires 146.78% global recharge. The rest comes from Armageddon's enhancing. Because I used no Hecatombs in either chain's slotting, you could frankenslot Damage/Recharge and Damage into Quick Strike to give you 33% recharge in Quick Strike (and will give you 2% more damage too). Not to mention the set bonuses of 4% recovery and 2.52% Fire resistance. It's silly to not slot for the recharge and accuracy in hecatomb, but this chain doesn't need hecatomb... so I just throw this suggestion out there to save you 33% in global recharge while not losing DPS (actually gaining it) so that it makes Chain 1 a little bit easier to accomplish.
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The -hp effect is capped at -150hp per stack for strong targets like AVs/monsters. I'm pretty sure that heavily limits its usefulness for anything you'd really want to use it on.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Now, would the -HP in Degenerative Interface be useful in an AV fight? Particularly the side that has the Toxic DoT. It still deals extra damage, and I've heard nothing about AVs resisting -HP debuffs, since I'm pretty sure it's a brand new mechanic. It will effectively reduce their regeneration, since it is HP based, and it will make it so you have to do less total damage to win (assuming you can keep it consistently applied). If I go for a DoT applying interface, it will be that one or the Negative energy DoT of Spectral (though the immobilization for 2 seconds will be useless).
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Culex's resistance guide
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Minor correction, the effect lasts 8.3 seconds, but the power itself only lasts for 8 seconds (see Lifetime in-game, just above Number Allowed on the left).|
Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
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The effect goes away when the power does -- typically effect durations are set slightly longer than the power duration or refresh for powers that have them, to ensure there isn't a gap between re-applications.
Quote:
(shrug)|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
I haven't looked at Axe yet, but I will be posting some numbers for Kinetic Melee and War Mace later tonight. What exactly do you mean by no limits though? My methods haven't quite been no limits, but they have been stretching it a bit with the high recharge and whatnot.
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It means what it says. I have the in-game resources to build anything that it is possible to build. Thus, no limits.
That said, I try to not get TOO silly.
Your previous efforts would be just fine....although of late, I've started equipping every new toon with both a Steadfast and a Glad 3 percent by the 20's.... I should get some unslotters, yank a few of those back....
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Yeah, kind of eliminates it's usefulness. For most things. |
Originally Posted by Pitho
The -hp effect is capped at -150hp per stack for strong targets like AVs/monsters. I'm pretty sure that heavily limits its usefulness for anything you'd really want to use it on.
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The targets a debuff like that would be useful on have WAY more than 600 HP.
Maybe it should be a straight percentage?
Gonna go with Spectral I think, maybe if it procs often enough with Midnight Grasp I can immobilize an AV (not sure how useful that will be though.....)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
The cap on the Degenerative proc makes it weaker than Reactive against anything with more than ~6,000 hp. Once mob health is gets above ~60,000 hp the -maxhp debuff is worth less than a 1% res debuff [edit: with 4 stacks, or -600 max hp].|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Yeah, kind of eliminates it's usefulness. For most things.
The targets a debuff like that would be useful on have WAY more than 600 HP. Maybe it should be a straight percentage? Gonna go with Spectral I think, maybe if it procs often enough with Midnight Grasp I can immobilize an AV (not sure how useful that will be though.....) |
It should just be a straight percentage, regardless of mob health, but the devs seem to think it would be too powerful; I don't understand why.
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Well, a reasonable amount would be 5% per stack, or 20% max debuff. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
The cap on the Degenerative proc makes it weaker than Reactive against anything with more than ~6,000 hp. Once mob health is gets above ~60,000 hp the -maxhp debuff is worth less than a 1% res debuff [edit: with 4 stacks, or -600 max hp].
It should just be a straight percentage, regardless of mob health, but the devs seem to think it would be too powerful; I don't understand why. |
If your target has 60,000 HP, that lowers their max HP by 12,000 points. If it were a straight percentage it would get MORE powerful as the targets HP goes up, instead of less.
I can see why they'd be concerned about it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I believe it's -2.5% per stack, for -10% when saturated, just like Reactive.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Well, a reasonable amount would be 5% per stack, or 20% max debuff.
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Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If your target has 60,000 HP, that lowers their max HP by 12,000 points. If it were a straight percentage it would get MORE powerful as the targets HP goes up, instead of less.
I can see why they'd be concerned about it. |
Answer? None.
For example, suppose we have a mob with 200,000 hp. You have the choice between an 11.111% res debuff or a 10% maxhp debuff.
The 11.111% res debuff is the same as increasing damage dealt by 11.111%. So, before the resistance debuff, we would need to deal ~180,000 dmg (200,000 / 1.11111) to kill the mob.
The 10% maxhp debuff would reduce the mob down to ~180,000 hp - the same amount of damage necessary to kill the mob with the res debuff.
Also, just like powers that increase maxhp (Dull Pain, Frostworks, etc), when a mob's maxhp changes (up or down) their hp scale to stay in the same proportion. So if the mob had full hp, after the debuff it would have 180,000 / 180,000. If we allowed the debuff to wear off, it would go back to 200,000 / 200,000.
The change in hitpoints (current and max) is just a visual indication of how much an equivalent amount of -res would be worth.
The -150 hp cap (per stack) would be like degrading the strength of Reactive's -res when mobs have more hp. (Against a mob with 60,000 hp, it would be down to a 1.01% res debuff.)
I am curious, do Monsters and AVs have their HP/sec regeneration based off their current Max HP like Players do?
If so debuffing max HP would also reduce Regen/sec and might make a max HP debuff somewhat more valuable.
Jak
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It does, but this means less than you might think. An AV at level 50 has 28271.7HP, and regenerates 20% per minute - this translates to 94.239/second. Debuffing that by the 600 permitted leaves their max HP at 27671.7, and thus their regen at 92.239. The equivalent of 2 DPS, assuming you can maintain four stacks at all times, is not worth it.
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Originally Posted by JakHammer
I am curious, do Monsters and AVs have their HP/sec regeneration based off their current Max HP like Players do?
If so debuffing max HP would also reduce Regen/sec and might make a max HP debuff somewhat more valuable. Jak |
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My Arcs: #4827: Earth For Humans. #6391: Young Love.
Quote:
Actually, the -maxhp once again functions very similarly to -res.|
Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
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To equal an AV's regen of 94.239 hp/sec with a -11.111% res debuff, it would take ~84.815 dps.
That same AV hit by -10% max hp would drop from 28,271.7 hp to 25,444.53 hp, and its regen thus lowered to 84.815 hp/sec ((MaxHP*regen) / TimeToRegen, or (25,444.53*1)/300).
Further, all the hp regenerated during with the debuff would scale back to normal if the debuff ever wore off.
I took a break from posting new numbers as I was busy ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME :P
I am currently working on Street Justice (which my numbers typically get somewhere from 226-250 DPS), but there are so many ways to go with chains that I could use some outside help. So if you believe you know of a superior chain with certain slotting, please let me know and I'll see what the numbers come to.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program:
War Mace:
Chain 1: Bash Clobber Bash Gloom
Requires 203% recharge in Bash and 256.5% recharge in Clobber
Incarnates:
Alpha T4 Musculature Core
Interface T4 Reactive 75% DoT
Slotting:
Bash 1 DMG IO, 2 DMG/RCH IOs, Hecatomb proc, Makos proc, Perfect Zinger proc
Clobber - 5 Makos Bites (Including dmg proc), 1 Perfect Zinger proc
Gloom 5 Apocalypse (Including dmg proc), 1 Cloud Senses proc
Calculations:
Chain Duration: 5.94 seconds
Chain Damage: 1109.20
Attacks per 8.3 seconds (after misses): 5.31
Resistance Debuff: 23.3%
DPS before debuffs: 186.73
DPS after debuffs: 230.24
DPS after misses: 218.73
Chain 2: Bash Clobber Bash Pulverize
Requires 227% recharge in Clobber
Incarnates:
Alpha T4 Musculature Core
Interface T4 Reactive 75% DoT
Slotting:
Bash 2 DMG IOs, Hecatomb proc, Makos proc, Perfect Zinger proc, Touch of Death proc
Clobber - 5 Makos Bites (Including dmg proc), Perfect Zinger proc
Pulverize 4 Makos Bites (Including dmg proc), Perfect Zinger proc
Calculations:
Chain Duration: 6.336 seconds
Chain Damage: 1084.38
Attacks per 8.3 seconds: 4.98
Resistance Debuff: 23.12%
DPS before debuffs: 171.15
DPS after debuffs: 210.71
DPS after misses: 200.18
Chain 3: Bash Clobber Bash Jaw Breaker
Requires 211% recharge in Clobber
Incarnates:
Alpha T4 Musculature Core
Interface T4 Reactive 75% DoT
Slotting:
Bash 2 DMG IOs, Hecatomb proc, Makos proc, Perfect Zinger proc, Touch of Death proc
Clobber - 5 Makos Bites (Including dmg proc), Perfect Zinger proc
Jaw Breaker 4 Makos Bites (Including dmg proc), Perfect Zinger proc, Explosive Strike proc
Calculations:
Chain Duration: 6.6 seconds
Chain Damage: 1127.79
Attacks per 8.3 seconds: 4.78
Resistance Debuff: 23.0%
DPS before debuffs: 170.88
DPS after debuffs: 210.18
DPS after misses: 199.67
Conclusions:
Again, Gloom offers the best chain, but requires ridiculously high recharge. Very doable, but does 18 DPS equal 30-45% more global recharge? I show both Pulverize and Jaw Breaker as replacements to the Gloom attack. The DPS is virtually identical as Jaw Breaker offers more burst damage, but requires more time to activate. I would recommend Jaw Breaker version because all damage bonuses from other sources will help Jaw Breaker more than Pulverize, and the attack chain requires 16% less recharge. *NOTE: I did not factor in re-draw into the gloom chain. This will make the actual DPS lower as the chain duration would be longer and the amount of attacks per 8.3 seconds would be less, thus your average resistance debuff would be slightly less*
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A -maxhp of X% functions mathematically identically to a -res debuff of (1/(1-x)-1)%.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Actually, the -maxhp once again functions very similarly to -res.
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It doesn't matter how much health the target has. It doesn't matter how much regeneration the target has. It doesn't matter how much damage resistance the target has. Nothing matters because these two situations are numerically congruent. It also doesn't matter if the debuff hits, and then expires while the target is still alive. So long as it lands at the same time as a hypothetical resistance debuff, and expires at the same time as that hypothetical resistance debuff, the effect is still congruent.
In fact, in a hypothetical version of the game in which all the numbers were removed from combat chat and floating text, it would be impossible to distinguish -res from equally strong -maxhealth just from looking at the motion of your health bar. That's what makes them both effectively the same effect, just implemented in different ways (they stack differently with themselves and one is typed and the other obviously untyped, but that's separate from what the effect of a specific max health debuff would be verses a specific resistance debuff against its explicit type).
But what about...? Doesn't matter. Numerically congruent. Even if...? Yes, even if whatever.
Clearly, the devs let us resistance debuff AVs but are worried about us health debuffing AVs, so I'm guessing they just don't know this. Keep in mind that if the -maxhealth debuff was uncapped then the problem would be a theoretical -100% maxhealth debuff would be equal to an infinite resistance debuff and the target would essentially be immediately dead. But a capped debuff that cannot exceed X will always have an equivalent resistance debuff cap of (1/(1-x)-1) just as above, which means you can always guarantee the maxhealth debuff does not exceed the maximum debuff allowed by reactive.
An *uncapped* maxhealth debuff is dangerous to have around because it can quickly build to immense strength. But as long as its limited, its limits can be made identical to resistance debuff limits.
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You would be correct, except that Degenerative does not do -10% max HP with four stacks on an Archvillain or Giant Monster or what have you. It does a flat -600. It's worthless.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Actually, the -maxhp once again functions very similarly to -res.
To equal an AV's regen of 94.239 hp/sec with a -11.111% res debuff, it would take ~84.815 dps. That same AV hit by -10% max hp would drop from 28,271.7 hp to 25,444.53 hp, and its regen thus lowered to 84.815 hp/sec ((MaxHP*regen) / TimeToRegen, or (25,444.53*1)/300). Further, all the hp regenerated during with the debuff would scale back to normal if the debuff ever wore off. |
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My Arcs: #4827: Earth For Humans. #6391: Young Love.
Quote:
I said "similar" because -maxhp has two properties that -res does not:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
A -maxhp of X% functions mathematically identically to a -res debuff of (1/(1-x)-1)%.
It doesn't matter how much health the target has. It doesn't matter how much regeneration the target has. It doesn't matter how much damage resistance the target has. Nothing matters because these two situations are numerically congruent. It also doesn't matter if the debuff hits, and then expires while the target is still alive. So long as it lands at the same time as a hypothetical resistance debuff, and expires at the same time as that hypothetical resistance debuff, the effect is still congruent. In fact, in a hypothetical version of the game in which all the numbers were removed from combat chat and floating text, it would be impossible to distinguish -res from equally strong -maxhealth just from looking at the motion of your health bar. That's what makes them both effectively the same effect, just implemented in different ways (they stack differently with themselves and one is typed and the other obviously untyped, but that's separate from what the effect of a specific max health debuff would be verses a specific resistance debuff against its explicit type). But what about...? Doesn't matter. Numerically congruent. Even if...? Yes, even if whatever. Clearly, the devs let us resistance debuff AVs but are worried about us health debuffing AVs, so I'm guessing they just don't know this. Keep in mind that if the -maxhealth debuff was uncapped then the problem would be a theoretical -100% maxhealth debuff would be equal to an infinite resistance debuff and the target would essentially be immediately dead. But a capped debuff that cannot exceed X will always have an equivalent resistance debuff cap of (1/(1-x)-1) just as above, which means you can always guarantee the maxhealth debuff does not exceed the maximum debuff allowed by reactive. An *uncapped* maxhealth debuff is dangerous to have around because it can quickly build to immense strength. But as long as its limited, its limits can be made identical to resistance debuff limits. |
1) -Res stacks linearly, while -MaxHP stacks nonlinearly. (As you say, not an issue with the stack cap we have.)
2) -Res stacks additively with itself, but -MaxHP stacks multiplicitively with -Res.
Yeah, in isolation with equivalent quantities, they behave the same, but I was speaking more as a whole.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
You would be correct, except that Degenerative does not do -10% max HP with four stacks on an Archvillain or Giant Monster or what have you. It does a flat -600. It's worthless.
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Quote:
There is another gotcha.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I said "similar" because -maxhp has two properties that -res does not:
1) -Res stacks linearly, while -MaxHP stacks nonlinearly. (As you say, not an issue with the stack cap we have.) 2) -Res stacks additively with itself, but -MaxHP stacks multiplicitively with -Res. Yeah, in isolation with equivalent quantities, they behave the same, but I was speaking more as a whole. |
In isolation, you will never find equivalent quantities of -MaxHP% to -Res unless you prevent any form of stacking and limit it to only one -MaxHP% power in the entire game.
Just like +MaxHP has an inherent diminishing return, -MaxHP% has an oposite ... whats the right math term? Dont think exponential cuts it... but something on that ballpark.
-5% max HP will be the equivalent of -5% Resist, but as you go down, it gets way too strong. Here is a quick list of equivalents:
Code:
-MaxHP% -Res Equivalent 00% 0% -05% -5% -10% -11% -15% -18% -20% -25% -25% -33% -30% -43% -35% -54% -40% -67% -45% -82% -50% -100% -55% -122% -60% -150% -65% -186% -70% -233% -75% -300% -80% -400% -85% -567% -90% -900% -95% -1900%
So it gets insane fast. So: where to cap it? How to assign numbers so that one stack of the debuff is not too weak without making 2 stronger than intended?
+The constantly multipling effect of Resistance and Defense stacking has been a big balance issue in this game. Starting to rely now more on -MaxHP% would make it worse.
I'm not really into number-crunching in CoH, but I'd be curious to see how Street Justice holds up to the others. I'd think:
IS > RC > SB > CU > IS > RC > SB > SC would be at least competitive.
Put however many damage procs will fit in IS after getting ED damage, achilles proc in SB.
Quote:
I do believe this was covered in my "nonlinear stacking" statement. :P|
Originally Posted by Starsman
There is another gotcha.
... Just like +MaxHP has an inherent diminishing return, -MaxHP% has an oposite ... whats the right math term? Dont think exponential cuts it... but something on that ballpark. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Starsman
So it gets insane fast. So: where to cap it? How to assign numbers so that one stack of the debuff is not too weak without making 2 stronger than intended?
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Now, if they have plans to add more -maxhp debuffs to new sets, then all I could say to them is "don't."
Quote:
I figure, the details were tossed there for people that may know about the diminishing return in +HP and may think -HP has the same diminishing behavior.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I do believe this was covered in my "nonlinear stacking" statement. :P
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Quote:
| In this particular case it's pretty easy - cap it at either 9% or 10%, so that it's roughly the same strength as Reactive' Interface. |
I would hate to see the debuff capped at 10% just due to this. Despite it's stacking power, non percentage based -resist can in theory be very useful and interesting to play around with.
All this talk on the -MaxHP proc has related to targets with large amounts of HP, how does it compare to regular bosses, Lt's, and minions?
With the reduced damage of the toxic proc (compared to reactive's fire) does reactive out-perform even against these targets in terms of over-all effectiveness?
Does reactive's -Res proc effect your team-mates damage as well? And if so, wouldn't that make it way way better?
Quote:
Yes the -res effects team-mates damage as well, but thats already been taken into account. -1% res increases everyone's damage by 1%, just like lowering a mob's max hp by 1% effects everyone attacking the mob.
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Originally Posted by Colt_Martin
All this talk on the -MaxHP proc has related to targets with large amounts of HP, how does it compare to regular bosses, Lt's, and minions?
With the reduced damage of the toxic proc (compared to reactive's fire) does reactive out-perform even against these targets in terms of over-all effectiveness? Does reactive's -Res proc effect your team-mates damage as well? And if so, wouldn't that make it way way better? |
I missed the part about you saying you won't go with reactive. I remember seeing you put that you were curious about using 50/50 reactive. In the case of using a different interface, your DPS will go way down unless you pick one of the other DoTs. The -HP might help, but it's a 75% chance to hit and at your attack rate you will rarely saturate it. I will skip on those numbers as I've already been digressing from the purpose of this thread a bit. But my guess is that you could still kill a +0 AV while afk, but due to misses and mezzes (if applicable) and no damage aura, it will take a very long time. ~30-40 minutes is my hunch.
Good luck on that endeavor and thanks for the questions/comments.