Archetype Specific IO's?

While I suspect that you're right, I will nevertheless be very disappointed if that does turn out to be the case. The enhancement boosters already push CoH into 'pay to win' territory, but cash-shop-only enhancements which are arguably better than anything available in-game goes deeper into that territory than any MMO I've played before.

Says you. I'm telling mom.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

OK. I've very glad I asked it strait out. I completely agree with point 1. I mostly agree with point 2. I'd completely agree with point 2, but I can tell if it's overreaction or not, because of the medium being used. If people are sitting at their keyboards foaming at the mouth, I'd totally agree. If they are calmly miffed that the devs choose to reinforce the long fought against Def=Healer mindset that is still too common, and in so doing slight (however minor the slight might be) the contributions of Stormies that skip O2 (which is fairly common), all TAs, all Sonics, et, then I don't think it's totally an overreaction. But your point on the relative value of some of the bonuses offered other ATs is very valid. If I popped into the Blaster or Controller subforum, and found them irritated, I'd not totally fault them, but I do think it's slightly different, in that, as has been said before, those bonuses at least apply some tiny benefit to every powerset in that AT.

But, largely, we agree. I don't know why you didn't just state at the start, "I see your point, and it makes some sense, but I don't think it's that big of a deal," and then leave it at that, but I'm glad we are finally on the same page.

One point I'd like to make in regard to your point #1, though, is that even though devs have made mistakes (or even let's say, questionable choices) before, and will again, they have also shown a willingness to revisit them, and possibly change them. And, minor though it may be to some, it's going to be less minor to some, more minor to others. I have no problems with anyone pointing out something that, however minor, is worthy of change, and making a case for it. In this case, it's minor enough I'd never have started the discussion on it. But once someone else did, I had no problem voicing my support, even though it's certainly not the 1st place thing on my personal list.

Thanks again for being willing to clear things up.

That's a very fair point. Very precise logic. And it does allow everyone to measure of it's utility parity that is the goal, or if it's slight to some of the defender types that's at the core of each persons individual objections. I'd imagine some people will be on one side, some on the other, and some might be a mix of both.

I was thinking something along the same line. I'm not sure it could be very well balanced. And I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement as a set bonus, but if those two potential hurdles could be cleared, then this idea I think would be a perfect solution.

I have to totally agree. Far more than any concern I have to the implied def=healer bit is my concern that the game may be headed heavily into the 'pay to win' territory.

Name it.

Unless something changes, it only goes in pet powers. You can check this already ingame.

+healing does NOT benefit powers like health that provide REGEN. There is a fundamental difference to the bonus provided by a healing enhancement (which does enhance a HEALING power and a REGEN power) and a % gain for a HEALING power (Powers such as Reconstruction or Heal other benefit from +heal but powers like Regeneration Aura or Health do not).

And since every AT can get aid self and aid other why not replace the 4pc bonus for EVERY AT specific IO set to a +healing bonus? I am sure the other ATs will be quick to jump on the bandwagon for why a +heal bonus on an AT specific set when some primary powersets of that AT have no healing powers is not a good idea.

Looking at the list of bonuses linked on the first page, I'd actually say most ATs would likely not miss them, except for the Tanker set, that had it's +RCH bonus in the 4th slot.

The thing that really made the sets look good were the 8.75% +RCH (which the Tankers don't get).

And the Defender one, with the +HEAL is better imo than the Positron's Blast set, so, as long as it can go into any attack and not limited to ST blasts, eh, that's still more +RCH.

Let's look at some other sets as well.

Increase S/L Resist on the Tanker set. What does my INV Tanker need that bonus for? :O Or that Tox/Psi Resist bonus, my DAr and WP Tanker doesn't really need that one.

My point being, is there are a lot of useless bonuses in those sets.

Not going after S/L Defense, looking for positional on your melee AT, the sets are wasting your time, unless you can use that +RCH bonus.

So it's not only Defenders getting a set bonus that doesn't help every build, it's all of them.

Again... you still dont get it... seriously are you people being intentionally thick headed?

THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHETHER A SET BONUS IS GOOD OR BAD OR OPTIMAL.

THIS IS ABOUT AN IO SET DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY FOR YOUR AT HAVING A SET BONUS THAT AFFECTS POWERS YOUR POWERSET DOES NOT HAVE.

How hard is it for you to understand?

Imagine as a scrapper that the 4pc set bonuses is +10% stun duration... thats a nice bonus... IF you have any powers that can stun

Now the defender set 4pc adds 8% healing... that's a great bonus... IF you have any powers that heal.

This is an archetype specific set.

All powersets should be able to get SOMETHING from each bonus. Even if it was something as "useless" as 4% immob resistance. An 8% healing set bonus does NOTHING if you have no healing powers. And since these sets are meant for a specific AT then ALL the powerset selections for that AT should get some benefit from each set bonus. Currently for defenders this is not the case.

AGAIN this is not about whether a set bonus is good or bad.

It is about a set bonus that DOES NOT FUNCTION for specific primaries of the AT intended to use the set.

Then take Dark Blast? >_>

Seriously, I wouldn't mind it changed, but I think all the sets need change. You say no use out of +Heal, and say no use out of S/L Defense unless building for it. Really, 1.2% S/L Defense is akin to nothing.

A global bonus like defense is very different from a +healing bonus

Allow me to explain. A global bonus like defense is just that a benefit that is on all the time that requires no input from the user, is not contingent on your AT or powersets. It does something regardless of what powers you have chosen. Now no matter how inconsequential or useless you think that defense bonus might be (whether cause you aren't stacking defense or your powersets arent really defense focused) is irrelevant. You are getting a defense bonus. You are getting something that does something however useless that something might be.

A healing bonus does nothing. For the healing bonus to do something it requires the player to activate a power that heals either themselves or another target. Let me clarify that HEALING and REGENERATION are two different animals. A +healing bonus does not benefit a regen power. A +healing bonus non functional if the player has no powers that grant healing.

You still don't seem to get it. Your point about how useless a s/l defense bonus is to this or that at/powerset is IRRELEVANT. Those bonuses DO SOMETHING whether you want to acknowledge that or not. A +healing bonus DOES NOTHING if you have no powers that heal. Now when you couple that with a set of IO's designed for a specific archetype and that archetype has primary and secondary powerset combinations that can result in no healing powers being available to choose you have a problem. This set bonus isn't bad for these powersets... its non functional. It doesn't work. It does NOTHING.

Now you have to understand there's a difference between a bonus that is inconsequential or not useful vs. a set bonus that relies on you having very specific powers to gain any use out of.

Don't tankers get a s/l defense bonus? How does that help SR?
Or as stated, how does a s/l res bonus help Invuln tankers?
And yet, the majority of tankers will see benefit from these. So they are acceptable bonuses. If you wanted set bonuses that applied to ALL sets in a specific AT, you would end up with basically identical bonuses for all the ATIOs. They almost all have a +rech, +def(of some kind, some not even useful if a set focuses on type/pos and the bonus focuses on the oppostie), and a +acc. That leaves 2 bonuses per set to be AT unique.

And the heal benefits over half of the AT, so that means it benefits the majority, and let's be honest; that majority would be upset if the healing bonus became (the only proposed substitution) an immob resist.

You're another person who doesn't get the problem.

A 2% damage bonus is perfectly fine for a mastermind. Why? because whether you choose to take those attacks from your primary or not... you have the potential of benefiting from that 2% damage bonus from your primary/secondary attack powers.

A set designed for your AT that gives a healing bonus when several of your primary and secondary combos can result in not possessing ANY healing powers at all isn't useless... it's non functional because you do not possess even the possibility of choosing the powers that set bonus would benefit.

As an MM you CAN take your primary attacks and that set bonus will help you. As a FF/Psi defender I cannot take any power from my primary or secondary that can get any benefit from that set bonus.

I swear I want to hit all you people in the head with a brick till what I am saying makes sense.

I don't know any other way to say it.

A soft capped super reflexes character still sees a benefit from a defense bonus. The number goes up no matter what. Even if that bonus is useless in the grand scheme of things that is IRRELEVANT.

Let's say your SR character gets detoggled somehow. You've lost your defense toggles for a short time but that defense set bonus is still protecting you no matter how slight that protection might be

With a +heal bonus and no healing powers what do you have? A big fat nothing.

I'll say it again. And I will keep on saying it till you people stop being obtuse and understand:

THIS IS NOT ABOUT HOW GOOD, BAD OR OPTIMAL THE SET BONUS IS.

THIS IS ABOUT HAVING A SET BONUS IN AN AT SPECIFIC SET THAT IS NONFUNCTIONAL FOR PRIMARY/SECONDARY POWER COMBINATIONS IN THAT AT BECAUSE THEY DO NOT POSSESS ANY POWERS THAT THE SET BONUS AFFECTS.

A global bonus always does something whether you want to bury your head in the sand about it or not.

A +heal bonus does not. A +heal bonus only does something if you have a power that can heal.

Immobilize resistance it is, then.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

The existence of things that are "bought only" is not "pay to win".

"Pay to win" implies that the things you can buy out-of-game put you at or near the pinnacle of performance, are are possibly only available as out-of-game purchases.

Being able to buy the same things everyone else can earn in game is not "pay to win". Being able to buy perks that are unique to store purchases but don't make a character meaningfully more powerful than a character equipped entirely with in-game gear is not "pay to win".

I do think there can be downsides to putting all CoH gear in its out-of-game stores, but they are not "pay to win" concerns, per se. I also understand the desire to avoid slippery slopes, but I think some people have far too binary and hyperbolic a response to this sort of thing.

If the AT IO sets had Ultimate bonus scales and proc rates, then yeah, I'd be concerned. As it is, they're (mostly) nice sets with some unique benefits. That is not "pay to win" by any stretch.

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree with your point of view. It would be better for defenders as a whole to get a minorly useful bonus that most defenders can use, rather than a useless bonus that everyone gets.

Just to give another point, let's look at this:
I can slot a full set of Numina in health on my theoretical fire/fire blaster. He wants that 3.75% ranged defense. BUT! The set also gives a 6% heal bonus! Huzzah! I can now use it on absolutely nothing! But I still slot the full set because the only bonus I am after is the range defense. Am I going to rage and CAPS LOCK WALL TEXT people because I don't like having a set bonus that I get absolutely nothing from? No, of course not, that's silly. And you know what, it's in a healing set. HEALING. And I can't use the +heal bonus at all. In fact, no blaster can, yet all blasters have access to the set because they all get health at lvl 2 now. You could, of course argue that I could take medicine, but so can any defender who gets that heal bonus.

Again, a healing set. For healing powers. And I can't use the healing bonus. Just like the defender set is for defenders, and not all defenders can use it. In principle, there is no difference between the two.

I understand what you're saying, but you are being too thick headed as well to see the other side of things. Not everything in the game is going to be 100% evenly balanced, and in this case, it isn't going to affect anyone's game play. If you can honestly tell me that a 4% immob RESIST bonus would be more beneficial to the average performance of defenders as a whole, then you should show how it would help more. Because it would decrease the least dangerous mez by about 2% of it's duration, which is almost always less than a minute, and is therefore lowering the duration by barely half a second.


Again, I'm not saying that a +heal bonus is the best idea, or that it is an idea I would put in personally. But it is not by any means a "bad" bonus for the set, and is definitely not the worst bonus given to the ATIOs.

Then treat it like any other set. If you don't like the bonuses, don't use it.

We already have set bonuses like that. Debt Protection for 50's is useless.

Want to make it useful grab Aid Self.

+Healing should effect...

Storm
Empathy
Pain
Kin
Dark
Rad
Thermal
Time Manip

So only Traps, Sonic, Force Field and Cold don't make use out of it. 33% may seem like a lot, but I guess you're right, immobilize resistance would be oh so much more useful. It's doing something for you, even if you never notice it, or it's so inconsequential as to not matter.

Nevermind, many take CJ anyways.

It's one bonus out of 5. You're getting worked up over something that hasn't been released yet, and may never be released.

Better to wait until after it's released to offer feedback? It's surely more likely to be changed then.

I'm probably weird, but I wait for things to be on beta before I give feedback. You know, when they're actually being presented and tested. Not when they were just offhandedly mentioned or from some teaser or leak. I mean, I had a list of incarnate powers and stuff months before they were even announced, but I didn't make a thread about how IDF pets suck (though I could have).

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. Anyway, I totally agree with BrandX here. It's not like anyone is being forced to get this set, so if you don't like only getting use out of 4/5 of the bonuses, then don't get the set. There are much more significant things devs can be doing with their time than trying to find a way to fit in a bonus that will make everyone happy on an invention set that most people would already be happy with.