Quote:
Let's clarify one thing here. Are you actually claiming that having 7 throw away powers is an advantage? o_O|
Originally Posted by Rikti
Archvillains and such are not PvE, and apparently its not an advantage that you only really need 3 powers in Poison (2 if it ever comes out for defenders), making much more room for other useful powers.
|
I would say that Poison has 3 good powers in it-- Poison Trap first and foremost, followed by Envenom and Weaken. Venemous Gas is OK when it works, but has far too many draw backs. I will give this skill a 50/50 keep or toss rating.
There is undoubtedly a problem with Poison. Whether we are looking at the set from your perspective where there are 7 throw away powers, or looking at if from my perspective where there are 5.5 throw away powers, it simply means the same thing. The set has too many lackluster powers, lacks synergy, and plays like a piecemeal hodgepodge that doesn't buff well, doesn't heal well, and and has a questionable single target debuff emphasis that isn't particularly potent given the sacrifice it makes in AoE potential.
/Poison should be compared to /Radiation.
They both have similar concept in powers except one has aoe toggles and one is mostly ST target. Both is a hybrid between major debuffs/minor healing/minor control/rez power.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
my only complaint ist the fact...that "envenom" got only -50%reg debuff per use...
this should be increased to 175 or 250%...praised as ultimate debuff set it should have at least similar numbers as howling twilight,lingering rad., benumb or what ever they are called in the other sets...
otherwise every blaster with drain psyche is more useful when it comes down to floor an AVs or GMs regen...
BANG BANG!!!
Quote:
it's funny that these people are complaining about poison, when i bet most of them have tenth of the hours i've logged into poison since i6...|
Originally Posted by Rikti
Well I was unaware that we were discussing PvE only, but Poison has plenty of advantages in PvE as well; only, it won't excel in what you call PvE, because apparently PvE is all about +4x8 mobs or w/e. Archvillains and such are not PvE, and apparently its not an advantage that you only really need 3 powers in Poison (2 if it ever comes out for defenders), making much more room for other useful powers.
|
anyways...
rikti is on the dot though. a well built-poison destroys the end-game when it comes to AVs, far more so than a rad.
PB'd weaken means I can pull both AVs in a BAF while people sit and wonder why the tanks are standing back.
alkaloid + incarnates means i can keep a tank alive when there's no healer in the team and then some. and between manuevers, vengeance and pb'd weaken being thrown out oh so often, it takes a lot of stupid to wipe a team when i'm the only one doing debuffs.
so what, poison trap is crap... i can climb up the leadership tree all the way vengeance and still have all the good powers.
not everything has to be an aoe monster in pve. stop behaving like raging pvpers demanding no roles, no just damage.
and just because you can't build your poison correctly, it doesn't mean the set sucks.
Quote:
i agree on this one though.
|
Originally Posted by RAWSIDE
my only complaint ist the fact...that "envenom" got only -50%reg debuff per use...
this should be increased to 175 or 250%...praised as ultimate debuff set it should have at least similar numbers as howling twilight,lingering rad., benumb or what ever they are called in the other sets... otherwise every blaster with drain psyche is more useful when it comes down to floor an AVs or GMs regen... |
Quote:
*Raises eyebrow* There's been a lot of changes since Poison was only for MM's. I have(had) a level 50 Merc/Poison. Judging by your response you seem to be talking about the Old Poison recalx
|
Originally Posted by recalx
it's funny that these people are complaining about poison, when i bet most of them have tenth of the hours i've logged into poison since i6...
anyways... rikti is on the dot though. a well built-poison destroys the end-game when it comes to AVs, far more so than a rad. PB'd weaken means I can pull both AVs in a BAF while people sit and wonder why the tanks are standing back. alkaloid + incarnates means i can keep a tank alive when there's no healer in the team and then some. and between manuevers, vengeance and pb'd weaken being thrown out oh so often, it takes a lot of stupid to wipe a team when i'm the only one doing debuffs. so what, poison trap is crap... i can climb up the leadership tree all the way vengeance and still have all the good powers. not everything has to be an aoe monster in pve. stop behaving like raging pvpers demanding no roles, no just damage. and just because you can't build your poison correctly, it doesn't mean the set sucks. |
Quote:
i'm not.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
*Raises eyebrow* There's been a lot of changes since Poison was only for MM's. I have(had) a level 50 Merc/Poison. Judging by your response you seem to be talking about the Old Poison recalx
|
that's a dark/poison corr i'm talking about.
Quote:
Ah ok. Well Poison Trap is no longer crap (well compared to the already crappy set heh).|
Originally Posted by recalx
i'm not.
that's a dark/poison corr i'm talking about. |
PB'd Weaken and Evenom is nice but it still doesn't compare to Rad or Dark as far as debuffs. Rad and Dark can pull ahead of Poison when it comes to debuff even without using PB. Alkaloid has wayyy to many issues and I don't understand the argument about maneuvers and Vengance having to do with the /Poison set. To me it seems like you're saying that the set is fine as it is but then you turn around and say there's only 3 good powers out of the whole set in which you will need external powers just to make everything work.
Poison has improved so much but it still lacks a few small things to make the set functional or desirable.
Dark/Poison is a killer combo though you can debuff most things to the floor. The Two sets compliment each other rather nicely.
Quote:
what i'm saying is that you can't look at the set without seeing how other powers affect overall performance. why is it that most people in this game get overly confuse as soon as you posit a conclusion/suggestion based off of multiple factors within the mechanics of the game?|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Ah ok. Well Poison Trap is no longer crap (well compared to the already crappy set heh).
PB'd Weaken and Evenom is nice but it still doesn't compare to Rad or Dark as far as debuffs. Rad and Dark can pull ahead of Poison when it comes to debuff even without using PB. Alkaloid has wayyy to many issues and I don't understand the argument about maneuvers and Vengance having to do with the /Poison set. To me it seems like you're saying that the set is fine as it is but then you turn around and say there's only 3 good powers out of the whole set in which you will need external powers just to make everything work. Poison has improved so much but it still lacks a few small things to make the set functional or desirable. Dark/Poison is a killer combo though you can debuff most things to the floor. The Two sets compliment each other rather nicely. |
i'm saying that the effect of incarnates + patron powers is disproportionately positive on poison as compared to Rad and other debuff sets.
also, i know it's cool to think "oh but the -to-hit in rad is are bigger liek huge", but remember that you have to factor in the -special's effect on accuracy within the to-hit equation. i don't know how that works in pve, but i know that in pvp, it completely obliterates whatever sort of advantage rad -to-hit may have over poison's.
Quote:
Hrm, ok. We're starting to get a small trickle of PVP heads in here as of late...maybe I should take my poison toon to Recluse's Victory! |
Originally Posted by recalx
what i'm saying is that you can't look at the set without seeing how other powers affect overall performance. why is it that most people in this game get overly confuse as soon as you posit a conclusion/suggestion based off of multiple factors within the mechanics of the game?
i'm saying that the effect of incarnates + patron powers is disproportionately positive on poison as compared to Rad and other debuff sets. also, i know it's cool to think "oh but the -to-hit in rad is are bigger liek huge", but remember that you have to factor in the -special's effect on accuracy within the to-hit equation. i don't know how that works in pve, but i know that in pvp, it completely obliterates whatever sort of advantage rad -to-hit may have over poison's. |
I use to know the numbers on the +Special for Weaken and Envenom in pve but it's been a long time. I might have till' a numbers person swoops in on this thread.
Noob like question to the latest discussion: WHAT DOES 'PB' MEAN IN PB'D WEAKEN/ENVENOM?! xD
@Global: Difficult One
Playing on European Servers (Union, Defiant)
If a person turns down an idea, he turns down an opportunity to evolve himself
Poison is the Stalker of the debuff powersets like TA (Ok maybe TA is better when you have good recharge).
Quote:
Power Boost.
|
Originally Posted by JanusFrs
Noob like question to the latest discussion: WHAT DOES 'PB' MEAN IN PB'D WEAKEN/ENVENOM?! xD
|
I am pretty sure Power Boost cannot enhance Weaken since Weaken has -damage? PB does not work in powers that have +damage or -damage debuff. I know this because I asked this question about PB + World of Pain which has +resistance and +resistance is seen as +damage in the coding?
Does PB really work in Weaken with -damage?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
It works with +/- damage powers (including Benumb and Weaken).|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I am pretty sure Power Boost cannot enhance Weaken since Weaken has -damage? PB does not work in powers that have +damage or -damage debuff. I know this because I asked this question about PB + World of Pain which has +resistance.
Does PB really work in Weaken? |
It doesn't work with +/- resistance powers (such as the shields in Cold Domination).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
yup.
we've spent the last 3 months throwing PB'd weakens at each other in the PVP league on freedom.
it works.
it hurts.
etc etc.
Quote:
So I guess you don't take Hasten or Combat Jumping to make your builds better, but rather you just screw around with those other slots and load up on Presence pool powers? "External" powers are kind of important for one thing, and, for another, having extra power slots to throw set bonuses at can be pretty damn powerful for most characters. Two of the characters I'm using a lot these days are a Cold/Dark and a Dark/Poison - I've probably spent more on the Cold/Dark so far, and yet the Dark/Poison probably has better health and recharge thus far.
|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
To me it seems like you're saying that the set is fine as it is but then you turn around and say there's only 3 good powers out of the whole set in which you will need external powers just to make everything work.
|
Quote:
The -Dmg in Weaken is set to ignore enhancements and buffs.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
It works with +/- damage powers (including Benumb and Weaken).
It doesn't work with +/- resistance powers (such as the shields in Cold Domination). |
So if it used to work, it doesn't anymore. I also checked Issue 20 when it was single target, and that also would not be affected by PB.
The defense portion should be increased with PB active... maybe. Do strength buffs affect other strength (de)buffs? If nothing else, the tohit debuff should increase.
Looks like the Mastermind version of power boost doesn't affect damage buffs anyway. Corruptor Power Build Up does, however Weaken's -DMG won't be.
Quote:
the fact that -dmg portion ignores enhancements and buffs is exactly why weaken is affected by PB.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
The -Dmg in Weaken is set to ignore enhancements and buffs.
So if it used to work, it doesn't anymore. I also checked Issue 20 when it was single target, and that also would not be affected by PB. The defense portion should be increased with PB active... maybe. Do strength buffs affect other strength (de)buffs? If nothing else, the tohit debuff should increase. Looks like the Mastermind version of power boost doesn't affect damage buffs anyway. Corruptor Power Build Up does, however Weaken's -DMG won't be. |
it just doesn't have any effect on the -dmg part.
Quote:
Oh Rikti, you know what I mean. Must we do this dance? You're Taking what I said and shaping it how you please. Any Set is Ok if I have Vengeance up, maneuvers running, and Rebirth Core Epiphany on perma.|
Originally Posted by Rikti
So I guess you don't take Hasten or Combat Jumping to make your builds better, but rather you just screw around with those other slots and load up on Presence pool powers? "External" powers are kind of important for one thing, and, for another, having extra power slots to throw set bonuses at can be pretty damn powerful for most characters. Two of the characters I'm using a lot these days are a Cold/Dark and a Dark/Poison - I've probably spent more on the Cold/Dark so far, and yet the Dark/Poison probably has better health and recharge thus far.
|
If you're going to say a set is fine the way it is and jump in a discussion shouldn't you list and explain how and why it does not need to be changed?
Quote:
i dare you to roll an earth/fire dom for pve and get all the way to vengeance without making some huge sacrifices. even more so when you take slotting into consideration.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Oh Rikti, you know what I mean. Must we do this dance? You're Taking what I said and shaping it how you please. Any Set is Ok if I have Vengeance up, maneuvers running, and Rebirth Core Epiphany on perma.
If you're going to say a set is fine the way it is and jump in a discussion shouldn't you list and explain how and why it does not need to be changed? |
power pools and incarnates fill in the gaps for most sets. like it or not, it's pretty homogenous. now, if you could prove that poison underperforms way below then norm when you take into consideration power pools, incarnates, etc. then you have a case.
It's almost like I'm dealing with Commando's clone from the Splain' Dominators thread.
You know what Recalx I can't. You got me...maybe because a Viscous Rikti Monkey that cons green to me can even survive and be of some use if it took Tough, Weave, Vengeance, Aid Self, and Rebirth.
Maybe I should go roll a Petless Mastermind or a Defender who has no secondary right now? Super useful eh?
You two are applying a PVP mentality to PVE..in this case it doesn't work.
EDIT: I've also stated in numerous threads why poison is behind and how it can be improved and HOW it compares to other sets just take a look in the corruptor and Mastermind threads to find me in every single poison thread since I started playing.
well ive played my /poison toon....to lvl 41 now...i got venomous gas, poison trap...and all the other stuff...
and the only thing iam missing is the massive -regen....on steamrolling teams the quick click debuffs are really good...on an itf you turn minotaurs into kittens....but...why the hell is the regen debuff so low....poison is not so bad as many here claim but it should be equal to other sets when it comes down to fight AVs/Heroes/GMs...whatever with huge regen....
Poison trap is "ok" when you slot it with many procs...the -end and -recovery is totally useless....dont know why they add such crap instead of -regen
BANG BANG!!!
Quote:
So a set comprised primarily of throw away powers, one that allows you to work your way up the pool power food chain without weighing sacrifice, is a good thing? All you've said so far is that Weaken and Envenom are great (with Powerboost), and you like spot healing a tank in a single instance of a single raid. |
Originally Posted by recalx
i dare you to roll an earth/fire dom for pve and get all the way to vengeance without making some huge sacrifices. even more so when you take slotting into consideration.
|
Yup. Poison is A-OK.
I don't see throw away powers in Poison other than Elixir of Life, which a lot of support sets have rezzes that are considered optional if you have room. Between Paralytic Poison, Poison Gas Trap, and an another hold from primary/epic pools that is a lot of control at your disposal.
I am really tempted to try a DP/Poison corruptor now. :P
/Dark is the only set in the game with aoe rez (minus Destiny).
/Dark is one of the very few secondaries that offer team resistance to Psionic. The other one I can think of is Pain Domination's World of Pain.
/Dark has one of the best aoe heal in the game.
Yes, /Dark doesn't have the best -regen (neither is /Poison) and it doesn't have -defense. I don't really value -defense that much but you may have a different view.
/Poison is playable and that's about it. I've level one to 50 even before set bonuses came out (more than 4 years ago).
/Poison is a very risky set for Corruptor because to get the best debuff, you must get closer to use Venomous Gas. Controller has more ways to survive within 15' radius and the "healing nature" fits Controller. Controller can use the heal to heal his pets, for example.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.