Player perplexed by Street Justice and Willpower

Hey all-

I am experiencing some difficulty with this SJ/Will combo. I love both sets, I have used Will on one of my 50 tanks and another lvl 27 Kin/Will srapper. I feel I have a good familiarization with these sets. And yet....

I also have played many Regen scrappers to their high thirties so I feel like I have a good grip on Regen/the Regen aspect of Will. And yet...

I have HPT slotted at lvl 27 with 2 ResDam, 2 Heals. RttC with 1 End, 2-3 Heals(testing all this with a second build), FH with 3 heals, MoB 1 End, 3 ResDam.
Additionally I have Stam with 3 slots and QR with 2. All attacks have 1 Acc in each as I haven't gotten to 2 in each or IOs yet. And yet...


Here's the thing.....I am constantly running out of End, the Regen seems to be non-existent, the to-hit debuff which is already small is also nonexistent. I whiff on attacks relentlessly, I'm not talkin' red and purple cons either, I'm talking white to orange with an occasional red thrown in there. And yet....

I have never had such End problems with any other toon that has 5 slots between QR and Stam. I tested my 27 Kin/Will scrapper and had none of these problems. And yet...

Did some teaming the other nite and there was an SJ/Will Brute complaining about the same things.

I can't figure this. Slotting seems solid, not a new set to me. Am I going nuts? Has anyone else experienced this in any way? It's starting to aggrovate.

Thanks

-Doc

I'm running a StJ/SD and with all toggles up (3 shields plus Tough, Weave and Super Speed) I'm really forced to carry blues. And that's even after slotting the Numina and Miracle +recovery uniques AND Perf Shifter chance for +End. I seldom ever require all three of those outside a farming toon.

It seems there is a bug in this. I have one too, a scrapper SJ/WP but it's at lvl 4 or 5 atm so ... Can't say I can share the same experience for it is a very low lvl toon. It has to be a bug or something thatsmaking it an Endurance-Hog.

Observational bias due to the quick animations of the set being hard on the endurance bar? Seriously, I'm not trying to be snarky, but StJ is rather twitchy and it's easy to get caught up in pumpling such that you run out of end quick. On my StJ/shield I'm having fun, my StJ/regen - meh, too clicky.

A buddy of mine is complaining about the same issue. He is not new to building toons at all and was surprised he was able to make an end heavy willpower toon.

We talked about this in beta, and the bottom line is it is a fast set. You are attacking a lot, and really don't realize how much. Once you get an -end in each attack it will get better, but it will really not stop hurting till 41 and you get physical perfection.

I noticed this too, but as others have said, it's probably due to the fast attacks.

I'm at work (as usual) so I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think I have a recovery rate close to 4%? And I still run into end problems.

On my StJ/WP brute I have Stamina and Quick Recov 4 slotted with Performance Shifters (including the +end proc) and a +end proc in the epic power that gives you the +Endurance (forget the name). I was originally going to take Strength of Will at 49 as an IO mule (Mmmm Glad armor +3% Def) but I may just take Physical Perfection for another +End proc. I have Numina Regen/Recov slotted and a Miracle +Recovery slotted as well.

Toggles running: MoB, RttC, IW, HS, Tough, Weave, Combat Jumping and Maneuvers. And Super Speed. ~.~

In my Mids build, I was able to get 45.1% Defense to S/L using Nerve Core Paragon. But now I'm thinking it might be worth it to go Cardiac instead.

*shrug*

Currently level 47.

It's a fun set. I may roll another as a Shield or Fire Armor brute for more damage output... but so far, liking this combo a lot.

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One thing to keep in mind is that a characters primary end use will ALWAYS be in their attacks. Toggles are a constant but very low end drain - they really slow down your end recovery more than they actually damage your blue bar but attacks will always eat into your blue bar. Increased end recovery speeds up how fast it comes back - but high end recovery means 2-3 end/sec and a single heavy blow burns twice this, higher damage/end cost attacks burn end even faster. This means that even on a high recovery toon like a WP or Regen you will probably want to slot SOME kind of end reduction in your attacks. It doesn't take much, just 20%-30% in each attack will buy you a lot. I am a huge proponent of frankenslotting cheap IO sets for a good mix of enhancement values as early as possible - this allows you go get decent acc and a nice mix of recharge and end reduction while still getting close to the damage cap.

I usually aim at 5 slotting attacks with something similar to the following:focused smite acc/dam, dam/end, dam/rech and a bonesnap acc/dam. The 5th slot varies depending on the attack and the character - on a willpower I will probably slot either an dam/end/rech triple or an acc/dam/rech triple. With just L25 IO's his slotting gets me 56% acc, 92% dam, 20% end and 36% rech with the acc/dam/rech triple or 40% acc, 92% dam, 36% end and recharge with the dam/end/rech triple. You can do similar things with PBAoE sets, although spinning strike is screwed a bit because it only takes targetted AoE sets, which suck - but you can still get ok enhancement values out of a mix of detonation and air burst.

I slot up my attacks like this at L22 and run with it until I start replacing them with better IO sets like crushing impact, touch of death or kinetic combats depending on the set bonuses I am chasing.

Even if you are not willing to frankenslot like this, I would always suggest running with at least 1 end reduction SO in each attack. In general I find 1 acc, 2-3 dam and 1 end reduction the minimum slotting to keep from draining your blue bar in a medium to long fight, no matter how much end recovery you have.

I have a StJ/WP scrapper and endurance has always been a problem even fully IO'd at 50. It's not as bad now but I can see my end dropping when in hordes of groups and I am using Spinning Strike/Fire Ball constantly, Hasten crashes and activating Judgement/Destiny powers.

4.63 end/s recovery with 1.9 end/s usage. I have the Numina, Miracle, Performance Shifter (x2) procs, Portal Jockey/Atlas Medallion accolades, 4 slot Quick Recovery, 4 slot Stamina and various endurance gain/max set bonuses.

Recommendations, try getting the Atlas Medallion as soon as you can. You can probably get it by the time you're lvl 25-30. 4 slot Quick Recovery, 2-3 slot Stamina. You can get the Miracle and Performance Shifter procs if you have a lot of influence or an incarnate 50 and buy them with Astral Merits (32 merits for Miracle; 16 merits for each PS).

At lower levels, hold off on toggle powers like Maneuvers, Assault, Tactics and Stealth. Slot your attack powers for end reduction. For example, for a 5 slotted Spinning Strike: Detonation acc/dam, dam/end, acc/dam/end, Air Burst dam/end, dam/rech.

Maybe avoid Shin Breaker and live off Initial Strike, Heavy Blow and Rib Cracker as your Combat builders. When higher level and ready to fully IO, respec in SB.

Try keeping Hasten as a click, don't put it on auto. The sudden loss of 15 endurance is pretty big on a StJ. You might be able to come up with a usable attack chain without Hasten being active. Only use it when you really need it.

All these are great points. As EricHough said, frankenslots work great, and I do that on most of my toons as I usually go for numbers(even tho I'm not a 'numbers' player per se). I think this all just seems a bit much for a build. ricohdah said he has 4 slots QR, 4 slots in Stam, to PS procs, Numina and end redux in each power. That seems a bit extreme. That's why I think there may be a wee bug going on, that's all.

I'm certainly not going to stop playing this toon up. Curious to see how it plays out as I level. Running 2 different builds with 2 different approaches atm.

Thanks

-Doc

Heya Doc, I'm running a StJ/Invuln brute, and thus far haven't run into any extreme end problems.

I'm currently level 19, so I don't have all my powers yet. I WAS having end problems, until I slotted an end reduction in all of my attacks, and they largely went away (I also have a level 20 Miracle +Rec slotted already, so that might help)

I can't imagine why you would be having end problems on a Willpower, but I've run a regen scrapper out of end before, so I can accept it being possible.

I think some of the posters are right on the money here, it's a VERY fast set, and you are attacking much more frequently than you would be used to on other characters.

Basically, it's every bit as fast as Claws, but doesn't have the end discount that Claws does. That is probably contributing to the perception that your end is disappearing faster than it should.

Try this: Log in your StJ character and record the end use for each of your attacks. Then log in a WP character who does NOT have end problems and record those powers' end use.

Now, play both characters in a large melee and count how many times you're attacking in 10 seconds with each one. I would be willing to bet that the Street Justice character is packing more attacks into that 10 second window than the character who isn't having end problems. If you keep that going long enough, the Street Justice character will run out of end simply due to the number of powers being used in a given time frame.

You can monitor your end buffs and see if they're working or not. If they're working, then you don't have enough EndRedux in your powers.

Hey Claws, been a while

I am gonna try that and a few other suggestions in this thread. I have a Kin/Will and a few other Scraps that would be perfect for this.

Thanks

-Doc

My SJ guy was having terrible endurance issues before 22, at which point I began frankenslotting his attacks for all of the relevant values. Once I got there, problem solved. This is SJ/EA incidentally, and for scrappers EA gets its first endurance management power at 28. It can be done. I'd already had end redux slotted in the toggles but they're totally insignificant compared to the attacks, as innocuous as each one seems.

A bit of a ramble about my StJ/SR experience. First the tl;dr: I cannot stress enough how right EricHough is. A bit of frankenslotting makes an enormous difference. Also, burning some alignment merits on endurance tools like Miracle regen, Numina regen/recov and the Performance Shifter proc will make a huge difference.

Anyways. My StJ in Beta was a Super Reflex brute, and I got really spoiled with being able to put a lot of of Endurance slotting in. Being a brute was quite defensible from a RP point of view. Then comes live StJ, I'm making my second proper toon on Exalted, and I just can't get past character creation with Brute selected...

Clicketyclick, and I'm eating blues as a StJ/SR scrapper in a stylish outfit. Because scrappers are awesome.

I'm pretty sure that StJ does not eat a disproportionate amount of blue for the amount of *** you kick. However, you get to kick a disproportionate amount of ***. Fast animations, big damage, have you looked at Crushing Uppercut and Spinning Strike? As scrapper players, you surely have.

I've always been a proponent of mainly slotting for sufficient acc, then damage, then a balance of end and rech. As long as you're endurance efficient, you can just hold off a bit on the attacking, take a little break to recover, oh and make sure you have a bind to easily toggle sprint.

Then I get to Faultline, rescue Mr Yin, get my Ogre's Mights and go acc DO/3 dam "SO" and I'm chewing blue bubblegum but damn I'm beating people down even with getting all the attacks and settling for 4 slots. This may not be the optimal way to play StJ/SR but I'm laughing and it's all good.

Now, the joys of altitis. I can fairly easily marshal up some stuff when I get passionate about a toon. Some a-merits, a bunch of inf and a round of emails later (I haven't got mids here but this should have been around 22) and our basic average girl is at 62.5 global with Numina, Miracle and Perfshift slotted, plus some very nice regen and acc bonuses.

I haven't respecced yet because it was only last night that I got Posi 2 done and no Sweeping Cross and only one of Initial and Heavy my Posi experience is gonna be less than amazing. (I may do a dedicated lowbie build) And I've done light frankenslotting.

And I'm no longer sucking wind. This is somewhat important; at 22 I'm close to end stable.

Then I get the final attacks, and some more toggles, do some more twinking, and at 36 my ad-hoc leveling build is at defenses around 40, still at 62.5 global, holding off on Hasten until post Perfection and about ready to take out Sweeping and one starting attack. And put in CJ, and make some new cossies... and put in some proper sets (Crushing Impacts for now I guess) because now I'm eating blues again.

It's not at all unmanageable but yes, StJ is indeed too much fun for a non-blinged toon to handle. As for how much blinging is needed, I recommend burning those few a-merits to get your recovery up. (I recommend keeping some end tools around in any case, put them in lowbie toons and pull them if they weren't fun enough) Do some frankenslotting as per the excellent posts in this thread, and enjoy.

Now to reroll my not very fun because I have a zillion SR scrappers FM/SR as StJ/WP/Fire with bright flamey StJ attacks.

On top of attacking quickly and frequently, a couple of Sj's abilities are on the expensive end. Specifically Spinning Strike, Shin Breaker and Crushing Uppercut.
If you weave any of those three abilities into your attack chain before you've gotten end reducers in them, you'll find yourself without endurance fairly quickly.

That's just what I've noticed, though.
I've been playing SJ/WP as well, I don't even want to imagine how bad a set like DA would be.

Im running StJ/SD/Pyre Mastery scrap, and oh course its end heavy, but after i got t4 ageless its awesome now. Hardly any end problems and i dont even have accolades yet.
Also having 5 purp sets helps my end recovery. But overall its one of my favorite toons to play, fun factor is top notch on StJ, and with the added Aoes from Shield Charge/Fire Ball (which crits) its a very fun toon and ageless helps tons keeping the attacks rolling.
Id suggest getting ageless if u can bare skipping barrier. My motto is kill em b4 they kill you and the added Aoes help tons.