Maximum ST damage possible
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-10-10 19:03 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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-Res, like all buffs and debuffs, is additive.
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
Objection! -Resist is not additive, it is multiplicative. Four -15% debuffs does not compound into x1.6 damage, it compounds into x1.749 damage. Four -20% debuffs does not compound into x1.8 damage, it compounds into x2.0736 damage. An 18% proportional difference - were it not for the damage cap, the defender would surpass the corruptor here.
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You know what, I was going to suggest Ninja/TA MM. Since the OP says survival is not an issue (which is a HUGE issue for Ninja/TA), I believe Ninja/TA can put out some mean numbers on single target with both Jounins at melee range. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
True, and lots of real world effects complicate matters. For example, some attack chains rely on stacking resistance debuffs, but that takes time to ramp up.
As an aside, one thing that came up while I was thinking about this question was Oil Slick Arrow. Its cast time is actually quite low compared to its total damage potential. In damage scale terms I believe it approaches 4.0 DS/sec if you do not specifically factor in extra time to ignite it (i.e. if its used in an environment where it can be ignited automatically or as a side effect of some other power). I just couldn't think of a way to leverage that high DPA given its long recharge: even at the recharge cap its still recharging in 36 seconds, which means it cannot be chained to autoignite (15 second burn time). And its net benefit gets diluted because it can only be used occasionally. |
And then you brought up Oil Slick Arrow which Oni can ignite with Rain of Fire.
With Ninja, you go with Musculature tier 4 (45% damage), two AH procs from Jounins and resist debuffs from Trick Arrow. Unfortunately, Trick Arrow debuff value is quite low on Mastermind.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I somehow think Fire/Fire/Cold Dominator is one of the top for ST damage if you add fire imps' damage and Freezing Rain's debuff.
I think it's higher than Fire/Fire Scrapper... maybe.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Given the Ops rules of being pegged to the damage cap, it looks difficult. On the Scrapper side you have a 1.125 damage modifier, 500% damage cap, at least a 5% critical rate, and an FE that is up more than half the time. This all translates, in extremely rough terms, into the equivalent of having something like an effective 1.73 damage modifier relative to something with a 400% damage cap. In other words, the dominator would have to come up with a way to climb out of a 70% hole to pass Scrapper damage. I would need to do some calculations to estimate the fire imp damage contribution, but it seems to be a tough thing to do.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
I somehow think Fire/Fire/Cold Dominator is one of the top for ST damage if you add fire imps' damage and Freezing Rain's debuff.
I think it's higher than Fire/Fire Scrapper... maybe. |
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As others have mentioned, this isn't correct. Resistance debuffs are additive with one another, not multiplicative.
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
Objection! -Resist is not additive, it is multiplicative. Four -15% debuffs does not compound into x1.6 damage, it compounds into x1.749 damage. Four -20% debuffs does not compound into x1.8 damage, it compounds into x2.0736 damage. An 18% proportional difference - were it not for the damage cap, the defender would surpass the corruptor here.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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A Blaster has the same damage scale as a Scrapper and the same damage cap. All a Fire Scrapper has on a Blaster is +10% DPS from crits and +24.96% DPS from Fiery Embrace for a net gain of 34.96% DPS over a Blaster. It only takes 4 hits from a Sonic Blaster to surpass that DPS increase. The fact that a Blaster has access to Hot Feet in addition to Blazing Aura only tips the balance further in his favour.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Given the Ops rules of being pegged to the damage cap, it looks difficult. On the Scrapper side you have a 1.125 damage modifier, 500% damage cap, at least a 5% critical rate, and an FE that is up more than half the time. This all translates, in extremely rough terms, into the equivalent of having something like an effective 1.73 damage modifier relative to something with a 400% damage cap. In other words, the dominator would have to come up with a way to climb out of a 70% hole to pass Scrapper damage. I would need to do some calculations to estimate the fire imp damage contribution, but it seems to be a tough thing to do.
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The thing that the Scrapper has going for it which will tip things in his favour are damage procs. The Blaster can only stick Gladiator's Javelin proc in his attacks and the Apocalypse proc in one.
A Dark Melee Scrapper for instance, can put 5 damage procs in each attack in his chain, considering the premise of this thread and the fact you don't need to slot for anything but damage procs, that is a significant advantage to the Scrapper. Conversely, each proc is multiplied by the effects of -resists but the +damage available to the Scrapper from FE and crits has no effect on them.
The discussion is moot however, neither can really compare to a Crab.
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But what about Freezing Rain and if you get lucky, you can debuff 20% more with AH proc. I think Freezing Rain's 30% resist debuff should push Dominator over the edge?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Given the Ops rules of being pegged to the damage cap, it looks difficult. On the Scrapper side you have a 1.125 damage modifier, 500% damage cap, at least a 5% critical rate, and an FE that is up more than half the time. This all translates, in extremely rough terms, into the equivalent of having something like an effective 1.73 damage modifier relative to something with a 400% damage cap. In other words, the dominator would have to come up with a way to climb out of a 70% hole to pass Scrapper damage. I would need to do some calculations to estimate the fire imp damage contribution, but it seems to be a tough thing to do.
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PS: Any Stalker combo can compete at such high level? lol I doubt it...
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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No. FE + Crit damage alone surpasses Freezing Rain's Debuff.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
But what about Freezing Rain and if you get lucky, you can debuff 20% more with AH proc. I think Freezing Rain's 30% resist debuff should push Dominator over the edge?
PS: Any Stalker combo can compete at such high level? lol I doubt it... |
Then the Scrapper still has the higher AT modifier and damage cap in his favour.
The Imps do make a difference though, no idea how to quantify their damage but when they have reactive and a 30% resists debuff on their side, they are nasty, nasty little critters. I think they would shift the advantage to the Dom.
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Basically, what I was trying to say in that passage above is, all other things being equal, you'd have to figure out a way to sustain about -70% resistance to match the damage modifier and damage cap difference, because that's how a resistance debuff would be able to amplify damage by 1.73. All other things aren't equal, because we aren't always comparing identical sets of attacks because of Fire Imps, but Fire Imps alone won't have a huge contribution to damage compared to a scrapper at the recharge and damage cap. How much they reduce the amount of -res you need to pass scrapper damage is the thing I would need to calculate more accurately.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
But what about Freezing Rain and if you get lucky, you can debuff 20% more with AH proc. I think Freezing Rain's 30% resist debuff should push Dominator over the edge?
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If we are including Freezing Rain from patron set, then we should also allow Scrapper to use patron pets. If I remember correctly, Scrapper gets 3 Spiderlings from Mace Mastery. Those 3 spiderlings do pretty impressive damage especially I think you can put AH prcs in them (but not in Crab's Spiderlings).
If we add Scrapper's high damage with 3 patron spiderlings, it should surpass Dom with imps and patron pets?
I know the 3 patron spiderlings do good damage becase my stalker used to have them (although it's hard to keep them alive since I am hidden all the time and they take aggro).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
It's sad that Stalker can't have Fiery melee due to DoT breaking hide? Stalker, the supposed king of damage specialist, is not mentioned in any of the "high end" performance.
10/10 Damage Ratio in character creation is misleading! 
Scrapper is the true 10/10. Stalker is at best with full team critical 8/10.
Can Stalker get Fiery Aura in the future?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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You don't think /FA would be overpowered on a stalker? Buildup + fiery embrace + burn from hidden would be like an area effect assassin's strike!
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Can Stalker get Fiery Aura in the future?
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It's no more powerful than Brute's Fury increasing Burn's damage. Burn cannot critical on Scrapper (and Stalker) at least and the moment you use Burn, you are going to aggro (even though you may not reveal yourself so the most you can do is to hit Burn and then quickly follow up a regular attack). |
Originally Posted by Person34
You don't think /FA would be overpowered on a stalker? Buildup + fiery embrace + burn from hidden would be like an area effect assassin's strike!
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Whatever you think that is going to be considered "overpowered" on Stalker is going to be even more overpowered on Scrapper/Brute.
So to answer your question, no, /Fiery Aura will not be overpowered on Stalker. The only thing it may affect is pvp when you hit Build Up + FA + Assassin Strike but Stalker isn't even the biggest threat in pvp. Stalker is only the biggest threat to newbies.
I find it funny that the dev are EXTRA careful when they balance and restrict Stalker performance and yet you have broken set combinations in other ATs that just don't make sense (like soloing pylons with ease. As far as I know, Stalker is one of the worst when it comes to soloing AVs/Pylon. I am not saying it's impossible. I am just saying Stalker is one of the worst).
Stalker can be overpowered? No freaking way. Not with that pathetic low HP cap.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Oh, I wasn't trying to say that it was going to be a Sonic Blast Corruptor by any means, just that if you're going to say Kinetic/Sonic Defender, a Sonic/Kinetic Corruptor is going to outdamage it (and yes, a Sonic Blaster is going to do even more). I also didn't calculate out any damage differences at all since you can assume identical attack chains - just using the respective AT modifiers at caps shows such a large advantage to Blaster over the Corruptor over the Defender (5.625 scalar for Blasters, 3.75 for Corruptors, 2.6 for Defenders) that I didn't bother to figure out the resistance differences because the values were simply too far apart to matter.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Assuming my back of the envelope calculations are correct, if you were at the damage and recharge cap and cycled shriek, scream, and shout, including the stacking resistances the defender would stabilize at about 198 dps, the corruptor at about 252 dps, and the blaster at about 357 dps.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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A thugs/sonic MM using burnout for double gang war. 26 pets is probably going to be pretty hard to beat.
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Not sure it counts as it isn't sustainable.
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Originally Posted by MajorTractor
A thugs/sonic MM using burnout for double gang war. 26 pets is probably going to be pretty hard to beat.
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Thats very true, but I still think I'm going to roll one just to waste a pylon in a ridiculous amount of time.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
Not sure it counts as it isn't sustainable.
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Whats the duration on gang war? 1 minute?
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Oh..the 2nd gang war won't over-write the first? Good to know!
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Originally Posted by MajorTractor
A thugs/sonic MM using burnout for double gang war. 26 pets is probably going to be pretty hard to beat.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Go check the MM boards. Someone put up a picture of GW>Burnout>GW and I think 20 thugs.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Oh..the 2nd gang war won't over-write the first? Good to know!
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My guess is, over short periods of time, TA/Sonic Def or Sonic/TA Cor. Multi stacked Disruption Arrow, Acid Arrow, Oil Slick Arrow, and a Sonic Attack chain. Of course, it takes time getting multiple Disruption Arrows out, so not sure how that would average out over a protracted time period.
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That was my first thought when I saw those charts. It's just wishful thinking on the CoH team's part.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
10/10 Damage Ratio in character creation is misleading!
Scrapper is the true 10/10. Stalker is at best with full team critical 8/10. |
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Highest Damage Single Target Attack would be a Moonshot from a Darkblast/Energy blaster. And coincidentaly that is the longest ranged player attack in the game as well.
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I'm assuming you mean moonbeam, not moonshot. But either way, there is no way that is the strongest single target attack, as blazing bolt has the exact same endurance/recharge/acc/anim as moonbeam, but does more damage.|
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
Highest Damage Single Target Attack would be a Moonshot from a Darkblast/Energy blaster. And coincidentaly that is the longest ranged player attack in the game as well.
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But all that's beside the point. The task at hand is to find the strongest attack chain to produce the best DPS over a period of time. Which I think Arcanaville hit with the fire/fire scrapper, although I don't know if APP/PPP choices make a difference.
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
I'm assuming you mean moonbeam, not moonshot. But either way, there is no way that is the strongest single target attack, as blazing bolt has the exact same endurance/recharge/acc/anim as moonbeam, but does more damage.
But all that's beside the point. The task at hand is to find the strongest attack chain to produce the best DPS over a period of time. Which I think Arcanaville hit with the fire/fire scrapper, although I don't know if APP/PPP choices make a difference. |
ah attack chain.....nope i dont know that.....but i would think a spine/fire scrapper would do more damage because it gets the spines aura that decreases damage resistacne and poisons ...
But you're wrong here. Resistance resists resistance debuffs, but the target's base resistances are always used, so that this compounding effect can't happen. So if they had 75% resistance to damage type A, and got a defender level sonic blast debuff, it would debuff by 5%, bringing it down to 70%. A followup attack with 20% resist debuff would be reduced by the base 75%, so the target would still lose another 5%, not 30% of 20%. This means that 4 15% resistance debuffs will lower resistance by 60%, not your compounded figure.