Remember that whole "choice" thing?
By
Agahnim,
Posted on: 2011-10-10 14:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Welcome to Praetoria.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Stuffing her back in the fridge against her will is wrong; damn the consequences. Making the decision for her is exactly what Tyrant has been doing to the whole world.
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There are no good guys in Praetoria.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Welcome to Praetoria.
There are no good guys in Praetoria. |
Only stupid ones it seems.
With a million different ways to solve the problem, we pick the one she hates the most.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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So Tyrant is saving the world by removing the few that would endanger it? If you're considering it that way, then taking down Tyrant because he's a danger would be exactly what Tyrant would do. Sure, he is a threat to everyone, but he thinks he's doing the right thing generally speaking.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Fiat justita ruat caelum.
Stuffing her back in the fridge against her will is wrong; damn the consequences. Making the decision for her is exactly what Tyrant has been doing to the whole world. |
Heroes can't always save everyone. Sacrifices are in fact a point in comics all the time- Giving up the life of someone they know to save everyone either that would be put in danger if the individual remained free, or if they had to choose and couldn't get out of it.
That's the whole point of Praetorian content. In Primal Earth missions, if you're a hero, you save everyone. That's what you do- You hit a super villain's stronghold, break out all the civilians/heroes, and take down the bad guy. Rarely you'll be late, or you have to choose to save the people and lose the villain, but Praetoria is different. There, you simply can not save everyone no matter how much power you have because you're jumping into a world that's been in this state for years. You can't fix everything, you can only try to make it a better place.
I just assumed that rescuing some people would be part of a future arc to be released.
Damn the consequences? So, you mean let her get taken by the Talons and either A) Murder Her or B) Let her Go to Murder Other First Warders or C) completely bind her down and hope being turned into a Talon can be reversed. There really was no other options, we were told explicitly that Katie is pretty much dead set to be taken because she's a seer *and* pretty pissed off.
Yeah, no. Compared to doing something to her that she may dislike but is completely reversible, I'm pretty sure it's *less* evil than letting her be consumed by the vindictive and psychotic force pervading First Ward. It wasn't just stopping Katie from turning, it was turning on the network to protect *every* Seer in First Ward. Is the Seer Network pretty bad? Yes. Yes it is. But it can be turned off again, by you, Vanessa, or any other Carnival or Compound member.
But then I guess no one feels bad about Cerulean since we didn't have to choose something horrible to save him, we just murdered him and the other Carnival members. :P
I just threw out my collected works of Sophocles, Shakespeare, and Steinbeck since they're just full of Tropes.
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Well I wouldn't say to throw out all of them.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I just threw out my collected works of Sophocles, Shakespeare, and Steinbeck since they're just full of Tropes.
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Half, sure, as some of the works by those are authors ARE terrible, for reasons that have nothing to do with specific tropes.
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Errrrr, I'd actually call Praetoria, "you can't save ANYONE, EVER."|
Originally Posted by Prodiguy
So Tyrant is saving the world by removing the few that would endanger it? If you're considering it that way, then taking down Tyrant because he's a danger would be exactly what Tyrant would do. Sure, he is a threat to everyone, but he thinks he's doing the right thing generally speaking.
Heroes can't always save everyone. Sacrifices are in fact a point in comics all the time- Giving up the life of someone they know to save everyone either that would be put in danger if the individual remained free, or if they had to choose and couldn't get out of it. That's the whole point of Praetorian content. In Primal Earth missions, if you're a hero, you save everyone. That's what you do- You hit a super villain's stronghold, break out all the civilians/heroes, and take down the bad guy. Rarely you'll be late, or you have to choose to save the people and lose the villain, but Praetoria is different. There, you simply can not save everyone no matter how much power you have because you're jumping into a world that's been in this state for years. You can't fix everything, you can only try to make it a better place. |
And I'd argue NOTHING we do makes the place better.
Still ran by a tyrant. Check.
Still on the edge of being eaten by Devouring Earth. Check.
Still a held hostage populace by enriche, super powered mobs, etc. Check.
Yeah we do a bang up job making that place better.
EDIT: As to the OP I've always said that the choice in GR isn't really one, as nothing you do there makes a difference later on whether you CHOOSE become a hero or a villain. In the end we are all being led down the path of the Incarnate Trials, which focuses on beating Tyrant and his cronies. Though I understand why they did it that way.
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To be fair, if the heroes never showed up, First Ward shows just how precarious the situation in Praetoria is, and it's likely **** would have hit the fan and doomed everyone if the heroes hadn't shown up. So they did do something - and this is still low-mid level content. Plus, all the outcasts in first ward are (relatively) safe now, the apparitions presumably went away, and DUST is almost completely wiped out in that area. First ward is probably a bit better off than it was before the apparition apocalypse started!
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Errrrr, I'd actually call Praetoria, "you can't save ANYONE, EVER."
And I'd argue NOTHING we do makes the place better. Still ran by a tyrant. Check. Still on the edge of being eaten by Devouring Earth. Check. Still a held hostage populace by enriche, super powered mobs, etc. Check. Yeah we do a bang up job making that place better. EDIT: As to the OP I've always said that the choice in GR isn't really one, as nothing you do there makes a difference later on whether you CHOOSE become a hero or a villain. In the end we are all being led down the path of the Incarnate Trials, which focuses on beating Tyrant and his cronies. Though I understand why they did it that way. |
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But they are still in a zone/world that can basically be eaten by the Hamidon at any time.
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Originally Posted by jackal913
To be fair, if the heroes never showed up, First Ward shows just how precarious the situation in Praetoria is, and it's likely **** would have hit the fan and doomed everyone if the heroes hadn't shown up. So they did do something - and this is still low-mid level content. Plus, all the outcasts in first ward are (relatively) safe now, the apparitions presumably went away, and DUST is almost completely wiped out in that area. First ward is probably a bit better off than it was before the apparition apocalypse started!
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Speaking of First Ward missions. Did anyone else notice all arcs reward you with only 2 Reward Merits? That's pretty low.
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For what it's worth, I really didn't like what happened to Cerulean and his faction of the Carnival. It bothered me that Whisper, the little claws stalker that I took through the First Ward arcs, had to do what she did to them. That, and the bit with Savage, made me grumble a lot more than just putting Katie back into the network for awhile.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
But then I guess no one feels bad about Cerulean since we didn't have to choose something horrible to save him, we just murdered him and the other Carnival members. :P
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First Ward... Where it's all about doing horrible things to your friends.
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Then you should have picked the option that was there to tell him and his men to get lost and don't come back |
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Having said that, I was also disappointed that the first time I tried to play 'tough guy' against the D.U.S.T. soldiers, I had to, with no further choice or exception, follow through and kill the guy.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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So far, we've saved the people of Praetoria from loyalist terrorist attacks using mindwashed Resistance soliders, weakened the dictatorship's military power, stopped the loyalists from melting down the reactors that power the sonic fences, and helped expose one of Tyrant's big lies while also knocking back the forces of the Hamidon - our rescue mission in Praetoria is going pretty well |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Errrrr, I'd actually call Praetoria, "you can't save ANYONE, EVER."
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Semi-off-topic thought: I miss the days when people criticized stories without throwing in taglines from some website every third sentence.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
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A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
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It's to cover up |
Originally Posted by Olantern
Semi-off-topic thought: I miss the days when people criticized stories without throwing in taglines from some website every third sentence.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, if it's used to cover up smilies, I can sort of forgive it.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's to cover up
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"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
Quote:
Meanwhile the Responsible members of society are stopping homicidal Resistance members from blowing up hospitals, saving entire buildings full of civilians from suicide raiders, dealing with reducing the number of Destroyers murdering the populace, etc. Everyone can save people, they're just doing it in different ways.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So far, we've saved the people of Praetoria from loyalist terrorist attacks using mindwashed Resistance soliders, weakened the dictatorship's military power, stopped the loyalists from melting down the reactors that power the sonic fences, and helped expose one of Tyrant's big lies while also knocking back the forces of the Hamidon - our rescue mission in Praetoria is going pretty well
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My only issue is I don't understand the villains' drive to do these things. Now, if the idea behind it was to manipulate events so YOU might become the next ruler of Praetoria and then eventually at the last moment have that snatched from you as all good villain plans go, it'd make more sense for me. I know Primal Earth is threatened too, but even when villains team up with heroes they have ulterior motives.
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Kang, Anti-matter and Mother Mayhem are responsibility contacts |
Originally Posted by Prodiguy
Meanwhile the Responsible members of society
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| My only issue is I don't understand the villains' drive to do these things. Now, if the idea behind it was to manipulate events so YOU might become the next ruler of Praetoria and then eventually at the last moment have that snatched from you as all good villain plans go, it'd make more sense for me. I know Primal Earth is threatened too, but even when villains team up with heroes they have ulterior motives. |
I'm not sure what the loyalist motivation could be for the Incarnate storyline - maybe really, really deep cover?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And Splice, Hatchet and Beholder are Crusader contacts. And Kang not only regrets what he had to do, but ends up becoming a Resistance fighter in his own way. Your point? |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Kang, Anti-matter and Mother Mayhem are responsibility contacts
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That Resistance is the only option by the time the endgame storyline starts |
Originally Posted by Prodiguy
And Splice, Hatchet and Beholder are Crusader contacts. And Kang not only regrets what he had to do, but ends up becoming a Resistance fighter in his own way. Your point?
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The First Ward repeatable contacts also give some hints with their flagging
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Kang, Anti-matter and Mother Mayhem are responsibility contacts
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Originally Posted by Prodiguy
And Splice, Hatchet and Beholder are Crusader contacts. And Kang not only regrets what he had to do, but ends up becoming a Resistance fighter in his own way. Your point?
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Concerning "Mother," you wind up betraying her at the end of her arc, as while you may be a Loyalist, even you can see she's all sorts of messed up.
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The Keyes Island Reactors Trial shows that Anti-matter doesn't mind blowing up Praetoria - just as long as he's the one who gets to do it |
Originally Posted by Scythus
This. Also, Anti-Matter has you foiling an Arachnos plot to blow Praetoria up with Rikti bombs and crap.
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| Concerning "Mother," you wind up betraying her at the end of her arc, as while you may be a Loyalist, even you can see she's all sorts of messed up. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Also, Resistance Crusaders team up with Arachnos and Syndicate and betray the Syndicate allies.
Again, your point?
I am going to have to wait until I get a character I don't care about up to the right range to do the first ward. The characters I have in range at the moment are fun to me and although I am not a hard core role player, I do have personalities in mind for the characters. All of the new missions not just first ward are written in such a way that they force the writers character idea's onto you and I find that it really stops the game being fun when I am told repeatedly how my character feels or what it is saying.