You hit me! Picard never hit me!
By
Beastyle,
Posted on: 2011-10-03 22:32 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
What confused Star Trek fans when DS9 was announced were "what no Enterprise?" followed closely with "what, Star Trek where people don't go anywhere?".
Voyager had the problem with the whole cut off from support of the Federation and have to go it alone, yet the ship didn't end up a patchwork of alien technologies to fill the gaps of parts they couldn't manufactured. Instead all we got was odd looking fruit and vegetables and food that we are told taste and smell different.
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"It tastes vaguely like chicken, but it has the consistency of corn husks." |
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Instead all we got was odd looking fruit and vegetables and food that we are told taste and smell different.
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Favorite stupid line from that show.
But yeah, what if Voyager arrived in the Delta quadrant severely damaged? The show could have gone in a radically different direction from the standard format of Star Trek and revolved around the crew struggling to survive.
Then again, I don't think that kind of show would have been doable in 1995.
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Originally Posted by Goliath Bird Eater
DS9 is one of the few cases where the remake is better than the original.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
My understanding (and darn I read a lot of points of view on this, but never that one) is that he pitched Babylon 5 as an entirely independent thing, not related to Star Trek at all. Perhaps it was that reason that they rejected him, who knows. But he did leave them a "bible" that covered a basic story skeleton plus a pilot script and more fleshed out info on Season 1.
This is why the pilot episodes for each show have so many paralels. Although Straczynski claims to have evidence to all of this, he never filed a lawsuit because he knew it would be too costly and harmful to the fans (as both shows would had likely stalled.) [this explination I got from some old Usenet posts from that time]. In fact, it seemed [assumption] he just went out of his way to explain this because too many DS9 fans were calling his show the ripoff, and he wanted to at least make these geeks aware of the "real" reason behind the shows similarities. |
Ultimately I think both shows had their strengths and weaknesses. I'm actually glad they -both- got made. But it's always going to be an interesting footnote in Sci-fi TV history that one show spawned its own "copy-cat" even before it itself existed.
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The main issue I had with Voyager is that it got to the point where it seemed like every single episode was getting resolved with deus ex machina technobabble. A problem would arise and all they needed to do was use an "anti-quantum flux polaron matrix generator to create a field of hyper-charged photonic neutrinos at the right frequency" to save the day.|
Originally Posted by sturm375
I beg to differ with those snubbing Voyager. I loved that show, in fact thought it was the best of the Star Trek Series. IMnotsoHO DS9 was Star Trek's attempt to bring in a more modern audience hungry for more violence. Hated DS9 for that almost as much as I disliked Enterprise. But that's just me.
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Now don't get me wrong - I know perfectly well that technobabble has existed throughout the history of Star Trek and there's nothing technically wrong with it. The point I'm making is that while other shows used it to some degree it just seemed like Voyager fell back on it all the time and it became the main plot device week to week.
I'm quite sure someone who watched more Voyager than I did (I estimate I only watched about 1/3 of all the Voyager eps) would be able to tell me that not every episode turned out to be a guessing game as to what gizmo was going to save them this week. All I'm saying is that the show finally left me with the impression that it had become a one-trick pony storywise.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Voyager had the problem with the whole cut off from support of the Federation and have to go it alone, yet the ship didn't end up a patchwork of alien technologies to fill the gaps of parts they couldn't manufactured. Instead all we got was odd looking fruit and vegetables and food that we are told taste and smell different.
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I think a flaw of the show (and a worry I have for the rumored next Star Trek series that would be set in a time after Voyager) is that they've let the technology the Federation has access to in this time period become so pseudo-magical that it's way too easy to let it solve all their problems for them. This is why I actually enjoyed the shows set in the older ENT or TOS eras because the technology at that point didn't seem to overshadow the fundamental stories. The earlier timeframes were less clean and sterile and thus more entertaining for it.
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I may be a bit off on this, but my understanding is that DS9 production was kickstarted around the same time WB announced they started production on Babylon 5. The production of both shows started at so close dates that the pilot for both broadcasted within a month. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
DS9 was not technically a "remake" of Babylon 5 because DS9 actually got started several years before Babylon5 finally did. But the evidence is indisputable that JMS effectively gave Paramount the idea for a show -like- what became DS9 years before either of them got produced.
Ultimately I think both shows had their strengths and weaknesses. I'm actually glad they -both- got made. But it's always going to be an interesting footnote in Sci-fi TV history that one show spawned its own "copy-cat" even before it itself existed. |
I rememer reading that WB was going to toss the towel after the pilot, thinking there was no way to compete with a Star Trek branded show. It took a lot of convincing to keep the ball rolling into the show, and even then it was hit by a delay of almost a year. Many fans think B5 started at least a "year later" due to this, forgetting the air date of the original pilot.
This entire controvercy is something I grew facinated with, specially since I only got to start watching B5 about a year and a half ago and gubled it all up in a month or two. It seems there is just mentions of it in the wikis (perhaps fans of both shows kept rewriting the other's wikis?
) but the entire thing is heavily documented in many other sites. Interestingly, other than statements from Rick Berman and Michael Piller saying they never saw the B5 Bible, I never found any statement denying the show was designed on request by the executive staff that had it, and thats what he always accused Paramount of doing.
This is all that is in the B5 wiki (emphasis mine.) The DS9 contains a very similar and brief chunk:
The pilot episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (DS9) aired just weeks before the debut of Babylon 5. Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski indicated that Paramount Television was aware of his concept as early as 1989,[57] when he attempted to sell the show to the studio, and provided them with the series bible, pilot script, artwork, lengthy character background histories, and plot synopses for 22 episodes "or so planned episodes taken from the overall course of the planned series".[58][59] Paramount passed on Babylon 5, but later announced Deep Space Nine was in development after Warner Bros. announced its plans for Babylon 5. Straczynski has stated on numerous occasions that, even though he's confident that Deep Space Nine producer/creators Rick Berman and Michael Piller did not see this material, he thinks Paramount may have used his bible and scripts to steer development of Deep Space Nine.[60][61]In the end, yes. I twas good that both shows got produced. Thats one of the reasons Straczynski gave to not bother suing, he is, too, a ST fan after all. But DS9 almost killed B5 and had we been talking about some one with less pull and less contacts than he had, the show would had vanished. These "rippoffs" can often, and do ofte, have the nasty consequence of depriving the consumers of great stories and content. This is just one of many similar stories we never have, nor will, find out about.
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Yes I was aware that the Babylon 5 pilot aired roughly a year before the show itself managed to take off. The fateful line of dialogue, "There is a hole in your mind" left me that whole year wanting to see more. I had forgotten exactly when DS9 started in relation to that pilot, but my main point that DS9 was on the air before Babylon 5 was still stands.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
In the end, yes. I twas good that both shows got produced.
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Again as I implied before I'm one of those relatively weird people who like both shows. I actually had fun watching how they evolved and how at the time they almost seemed to feed off each other. Ultimately as someone who liked both shows I sometimes like to poke fun at people who are of the "loved one and hated the other" variety. It's usually pretty easy to get them riled up.
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Well I dont hate DS9 since I have not seen it |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Yes I was aware that the Babylon 5 pilot aired roughly a year before the show itself managed to take off. The fateful line of dialogue, "There is a hole in your mind" left me that whole year wanting to see more. I had forgotten exactly when DS9 started in relation to that pilot, but my main point that DS9 was on the air before Babylon 5 was still stands.
Again as I implied before I'm one of those relatively weird people who like both shows. I actually had fun watching how they evolved and how at the time they almost seemed to feed off each other. Ultimately as someone who liked both shows I sometimes like to poke fun at people who are of the "loved one and hated the other" variety. It's usually pretty easy to get them riled up. |
. It's on my queue to watch but was hard to *cough* aquire. With it on Netflix that may change. Now if I was not so bussy with side projects...
I have to disagree with the majority here and state that over the time the production crew have really perfected their craft with every series. Everything from special effects to clarity of the story and acting have steadily improved since TOS. I originally was one of the many who were up in arms about the introduction of Enterprise, but ten years after the fact I gave it a shot and found that I had missed out on some incredible stories. Compare and contrast TNG to Enterprise and there is a laundry list of improvements at first glance even though the "feel" of both series is undeniably Star Trek.
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Actually I would also agree when you consider all Star Trek series' episodes in total there are many Enterprise episodes that were superior to many of the other series' episodes.|
Originally Posted by Magus_Prime
I have to disagree with the majority here and state that over the time the production crew have really perfected their craft with every series. Everything from special effects to clarity of the story and acting have steadily improved since TOS. I originally was one of the many who were up in arms about the introduction of Enterprise, but ten years after the fact I gave it a shot and found that I had missed out on some incredible stories. Compare and contrast TNG to Enterprise and there is a laundry list of improvements at first glance even though the "feel" of both series is undeniably Star Trek.
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I think they were never quite sure what they wanted to do with Enterprise as far as making it purely episodic versus trying to have an ongoing story line. I think many people balked at the whole Xindi war arc and the series suffered in general. But there were many individual episodes that were quite good despite that.
I only hope they've learned from their mistakes and do a better job deciding the direction of the next "rumored" series that's in the works as we speak.
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I would guess a new series would take place in the new timeline from the last movie, but I ponder if they would attempt to use the same cast, or consider them too expensive for the small screen.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I only hope they've learned from their mistakes and do a better job deciding the direction of the next "rumored" series that's in the works as we speak.
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Actually there's a very strong rumor that the next series will be in the post-Voyager timeframe and set in the original timeline.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I would guess a new series would take place in the new timeline from the last movie, but I ponder if they would attempt to use the same cast, or consider them too expensive for the small screen.
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There was a thread talking about it here like a week or two ago. *shrugs*
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I just came back to the forums recently so definitively missed that threa.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Actually there's a very strong rumor that the next series will be in the post-Voyager timeframe and set in the original timeline.
There was a thread talking about it here like a week or two ago. *shrugs* |
Although I liked the movie timeline best, I guess it makes sense to keep the TV shows in their own timeline separate from the movies. Would make it easier to make movies without worying about what the tv production team is working on, and the other way around.
Yes, I distinctly remember that thread and am eagerly anticipating concrete news of the green light. It IS going to take place in the primary continuity post Voyager with a shift of power in the Ferengis' favor among other things.
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I can't really picture the Ferengi being a serious threat in Star Trek. It's just... their heads look like butts.
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Originally Posted by Magus_Prime
It IS going to take place in the primary continuity post Voyager with a shift of power in the Ferengis' favor among other things.
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Goodbye, I guess.
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I watched through TOS on BluRay earlier this year, and DVRd my way through TNG thanks to a local station running episodes every weekday. Of course I grew up with TNG myself, but I really wanted to make sure I had seen every episode. Now I definitely have. And I'll probably watch through TNG again when it comes out on BluRay next year.
And now with DS9 on Netflix, I can continue on! I'm very sure I couldn't have seen more than half of the episodes in this series, and I'm looking forward to catching up on what I've missed.
And of course I'll do with DS9 what I did with TOS and TNG -- after every episode, I'll go to Memory Alpha and look up the background info and trivia on that episode. Almost always interesting stuff to be found in there.
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Originally Posted by Magus_Prime
Yes, I distinctly remember that thread and am eagerly anticipating concrete news of the green light. It IS going to take place in the primary continuity post Voyager with a shift of power in the Ferengis' favor among other things.
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Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
I can't really picture the Ferengi being a serious threat in Star Trek. It's just... their heads look like butts.
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Ferengi as a major player in the prime universe? I can actually see it happening
-The only thing Abrams' movie did in the prime universe is destroy Romulus, this can leave a power vacuum and a need for help the Ferengi could fill... for a price.
-Also the remnants of the Dominion War, having the Ferengi swoop in and begin a sort of business occupation of Cardassia after the shenanigans that went on there.
-With the Ferengi essentially in control of these two powerful governments, the Federation is starting to look a little small.
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I could see that happening, but not with the Ferengi. They're greedy, scheming opportunists, true, but they're also craven cowards. In a situation that could result in physical violence, they're almost guaranteed to back down. I really can't imagine that kind of species becoming a rival power on par with the Federation. At least, not without some radical shifts in their culture that would seem totally out of character (unless there's a jump of a few hundred years). Maybe they could become the interstellar equivalent of locusts, moving to a planet, stripping it of its resources, and moving on to another, but that's about it.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Actually it makes some sense when you consider that Star Trek has always served as a mirror for social commentary. In the last decade America has seen the rise of other economic powers in the world such as China and India. America is having to adjust to the reality that it's no longer the sole superpower in the world at least on an economic level. Likewise the idea that a opportunistic group like the Ferengi have become more powerful in the Star Trek galaxy is a perfect analogy to that. Should be interesting if they handle it well.
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Originally Posted by Shatterghost
Ferengi as a major player in the prime universe? I can actually see it happening
-The only thing Abrams' movie did in the prime universe is destroy Romulus, this can leave a power vacuum and a need for help the Ferengi could fill... for a price. -Also the remnants of the Dominion War, having the Ferengi swoop in and begin a sort of business occupation of Cardassia after the shenanigans that went on there. -With the Ferengi essentially in control of these two powerful governments, the Federation is starting to look a little small. |
The Cardassians ended up regretting their alliance with the Dominion, came to realize that they were a subjugated people, and started a bloody (if short) revolution to get rid of them. After all of that, I can't imagine that the Cardassians would then turn around and strike deals with the Ferengi that would, essentially, re-subjugate them. And regardless of their need, I don't think the Cardassians would have to turn to the Ferengi for aid anyway. The Federation would quickly set up aid shipments and start working with the Cardassians to provide for basic needs and begin the rebuilding of their world.
As for the Romulans, with their superiority complex they'd probably prefer death over subjugation, especially if the Ferengi were the subjugators. I think it would be more likely that a civil war would break out in Romulan space as various factions vie for control. With the Empire weak, other powers would move in to try claiming some of their territory, with the most likely candidates being the Klingons and possibly the Breen and Tholians.
Goodbye, I guess.
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Didn't know this bit, but then again the only Dominion War episodes I ever caught were the big space battle episodes, not the storyline episodes.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
The Cardassians ended up regretting their alliance with the Dominion, came to realize that they were a subjugated people, and started a bloody (if short) revolution to get rid of them. |
Season 1 episode 6 FTW!
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The revolution started in the last... six(?) episodes of the series (Garak had some really good moments during that mini-arc). It was short lived, since the Dominion War was wrapped up quickly after it started, but the Cardassians suffered casualties in the millions because they'd really pissed off the Dominion, which decided to implement a scorched earth retaliation policy.
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Originally Posted by Shatterghost
Didn't know this bit, but then again the only Dominion War episodes I ever caught were the big space battle episodes, not the storyline episodes.
Season 1 episode 6 FTW! |
Goodbye, I guess.
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Well all I would say to this is that if the new series is set at least 50 to 100 years after Voyager then almost -anything- could happen. I'm quite sure if the makers of the new show want the Ferengi to be viable rivals to the Federation it would be relatively easy to explain a reason why or how it could happen in a future no one has really defined yet. You're forgetting that the Feregni don't really have to "catch-up" too far to the Federation if the Federation itself is also in a decline. Remember the social commentary I mentioned? |
Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
I could see that happening, but not with the Ferengi. They're greedy, scheming opportunists, true, but they're also craven cowards. In a situation that could result in physical violence, they're almost guaranteed to back down. I really can't imagine that kind of species becoming a rival power on par with the Federation. At least, not without some radical shifts in their culture that would seem totally out of character (unless there's a jump of a few hundred years). Maybe they could become the interstellar equivalent of locusts, moving to a planet, stripping it of its resources, and moving on to another, but that's about it.
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Like you it doesn't seem to me like the Feregni -could- get that powerful, but really anything's possible in a new show. *shrugs*
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In the last episode of DS9....or near to last episode I forget which, didn't Quark think that he was going to again be named the new Grand Nagus, only to have it be his brother who was something of a moderate-reformist in terms of Ferengi philosophy become the new Grand Nagus, and that their mother was dating with Nagus? Didn't Quark immediately order a price increase to all drinks as well as watering them down and that "the line must be drawn here" against the impending changes that his brother would implement?|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Well all I would say to this is that if the new series is set at least 50 to 100 years after Voyager then almost -anything- could happen. I'm quite sure if the makers of the new show want the Ferengi to be viable rivals to the Federation it would be relatively easy to explain a reason why or how it could happen in a future no one has really defined yet. You're forgetting that the Feregni don't really have to "catch-up" too far to the Federation if the Federation itself is also in a decline. Remember the social commentary I mentioned?
Like you it doesn't seem to me like the Feregni -could- get that powerful, but really anything's possible in a new show. *shrugs* |
If these changes have occurred and the Ferengi are more...moderate...in their pursuit of wealth, among other society changes, then perhaps they could become a rival to the Federation.
Their technology isn't too far below the Federation, but as Ryker observed in the early TNG episode when he spoke with the alien that trapped their ships, the Ferengi lack the wisdom and discipline that the Federation has.
To me the more preferable option would be the Romulans, but I suppose that isn't possible now.
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I'd like to see the Gorn brought back as a series big bad. It would take some CG work to make them look good, but I think it would be interesting to give them more development.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
To me the more preferable option would be the Romulans, but I suppose that isn't possible now.
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Ideally they'd look something like this:
Not this:
Or this
Goodbye, I guess.
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DS9 may had been a solid sci fi show, but its an odd ball in the entire Star Trek series. Can see anyone that liked the formula being alienated.