Alright. How about this: If you run a given patron arc, when you complete that arc, a window pops up which reads: "Congratulations! You have just complete X's Training! You have unlocked the option to carry the following title: X's (Student/Sidekick/Ally/Whatever)!" and there is a pair of buttons: Accept, and Decline. Accept, there's your title. Decline, you don't get the title. Congratulations.
There. Now BrandX gets her golden hood ornament, and we can just say no and get on with our lives. Everyone gets a choice.
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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
I do not object to someone having a golden doggy tag, but I would rather not be known as XX's Sidekick, nor have any title forced on me. But I would not complain if it were optional.
Positron visited the AE building during development and said it would be useful for training and practicing powers ... why not have positron as the contact and he sends you to the AE building for the specific training. and "like" the first sig arch, you're given four missions in which you are to use each heroes powers (Statesman isn't inclused, just like Rucluse isn't) and at the end you unlock the ability to choose or repec for them.
Recluse, Statesman, Reichman, etc (as shown in the oro incarnate arch) are the ones the incarates represent. they would not represent training of epic powers. FYI
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What? I don't want the golden title. I wouldn't use these sets because of the golden title. I just think that's what should go along with making Hero Patron Pools, as I don't see the reason to make them outside of people saying...|
Originally Posted by Kirsten
Alright. How about this: If you run a given patron arc, when you complete that arc, a window pops up which reads: "Congratulations! You have just complete X's Training! You have unlocked the option to carry the following title: X's (Student/Sidekick/Ally/Whatever)!" and there is a pair of buttons: Accept, and Decline. Accept, there's your title. Decline, you don't get the title. Congratulations.
There. Now BrandX gets her golden hood ornament, and we can just say no and get on with our lives. Everyone gets a choice. |
"I want Shadow Meld, without having to go Red Side, so let's make a Hero Patron that gives me the equivalent of that."
Before we had the ability to take Ancillary Pools AND Patron pools, no one wanted Patron Pools, because they felt like the Patron pools made you a lackey. Now its more about trying to get ahold of blueside equivalent of redside patron powers, but not having to go through the process of alignment change.
I want the gold title attached to it for a few reasons...
I want to see the Hero Patrons have an AWESOME AWESOME OMG IS THIS POSSIBLY GAME BREAKING final teir power. For it to be a set that people look at and go "OMG! I CAN'T NOT HAVE THIS POWERSET IF I WANT TO STAY MIN/MAXED!"
Seeing as how Hero Patron's would mean storyline involved, and storyline wise the character wouldn't be an incarnate yet (as they'd unlock at lvl 34, so you can select the first power at level 35), they are in fact, not all powerful (which I find funny to hear people say...well see people write...as when I say, how does one feel so powerful when they need a group of 7 other people to help beat on an AV...so why is it bad that I want to make my character beable to solo AVs) as they're not lvl 50 yet, and they're not incarnates yet, and the fact that Hero Patron sounds like "I'm the sidekick" Pool...well then....
That leads to the gold title! Let's make the sets so enticing to grab, we see who's willing to grab that set and be stuck with the title of sidekick! Seeing as how many players don't seem to even care about the storylines and such things, I imagine many won't even care. For the few that do, they can really look at it and weigh the options.
And then after all that...for all that OMG AWESOME POWER...I can avoid using it! \o/ As really, my character is no one's sidekick.
Sounds like a great idea to me. And why I want it to be this way. And why I don't want it to just be "Here, have Villain Patrons without having to change alignment to get those powers."
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
But...if the...I...The heroic Patrons are supposed to allow for everyone to have their own special sets...not to gain absurd powers. It's a Parity thing. not a power thing. Honestly, I don't give a flying fudge ripple if people want to solo AVs. That's not the point. The point is for everyone to have a theme-fitting unlocked pool of powers that complement their existing abilities and still be reasonably balanced. Want to Solo AVs? Go IO farm, set your mish to -1 and get incarnate powers.
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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
I don't see Heroic patrons granting over the top powers, but rather individually patron UNIQUE powers. Variety is the spice of life as they say, and it is really what drives this game in my opinion. If we only had a few options I certainly would not be playing. This is a case of "More is Better"!
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This makes it sound like you're trying to derail this suggestion from ever actually happening in order to preserve the uniqueness of villain patrons. If that's the case then you should say so instead of trying to be sneaky or snarky about it. This whole exchange is oozing insincerity.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
What? I don't want the golden title. I wouldn't use these sets because of the golden title. I just think that's what should go along with making Hero Patron Pools, as I don't see the reason to make them outside of people saying...
"I want Shadow Meld, without having to go Red Side, so let's make a Hero Patron that gives me the equivalent of that." Before we had the ability to take Ancillary Pools AND Patron pools, no one wanted Patron Pools, because they felt like the Patron pools made you a lackey. Now its more about trying to get ahold of blueside equivalent of redside patron powers, but not having to go through the process of alignment change. I want the gold title attached to it for a few reasons... I want to see the Hero Patrons have an AWESOME AWESOME OMG IS THIS POSSIBLY GAME BREAKING final teir power. For it to be a set that people look at and go "OMG! I CAN'T NOT HAVE THIS POWERSET IF I WANT TO STAY MIN/MAXED!" Seeing as how Hero Patron's would mean storyline involved, and storyline wise the character wouldn't be an incarnate yet (as they'd unlock at lvl 34, so you can select the first power at level 35), they are in fact, not all powerful (which I find funny to hear people say...well see people write...as when I say, how does one feel so powerful when they need a group of 7 other people to help beat on an AV...so why is it bad that I want to make my character beable to solo AVs) as they're not lvl 50 yet, and they're not incarnates yet, and the fact that Hero Patron sounds like "I'm the sidekick" Pool...well then.... That leads to the gold title! Let's make the sets so enticing to grab, we see who's willing to grab that set and be stuck with the title of sidekick! Seeing as how many players don't seem to even care about the storylines and such things, I imagine many won't even care. For the few that do, they can really look at it and weigh the options. And then after all that...for all that OMG AWESOME POWER...I can avoid using it! \o/ As really, my character is no one's sidekick. Sounds like a great idea to me. And why I want it to be this way. And why I don't want it to just be "Here, have Villain Patrons without having to change alignment to get those powers." |
This idea's great, and I'm hoping the Devs will take a look. They've got a lot on their plate, but the concepts and power opportunities are worthwhile; the game's always been about customization, and hero patron pools from Longbow, Legacy Chain, Phalanx, etc., would make a wonderful addition to that.
The Paladin
Steel Canyon, Virtue
Exalted
@Paladin
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Although the hue and cry of the "Pure Villain" characters, if more than 4 Patron Power Pools are designed, would be monstrous. If you have Heroic Power Pools from Longbow, Legacy Chain, Phalanx, etc. then the four 'Arachnos' PPPs would necessarily have to be buffed out to include Circle of Thorns, Malta, Knives of Artemis, Devouring Earth, etc. etc. Patrons also. I doubt we will see such when the 'End Game' powers are going more towards Incarnate than something as Mundane as a Hero or Villain group.|
Originally Posted by Paladin
This idea's great, and I'm hoping the Devs will take a look. They've got a lot on their plate, but the concepts and power opportunities are worthwhile; the game's always been about customization, and hero patron pools from Longbow, Legacy Chain, Phalanx, etc., would make a wonderful addition to that.
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In the end, PPP's (Villain) were designed to give a thematic counter to the APP's (Hero) as an Epic Power Pool for post Level 40 Power Set addition choices. As I have always (and I really believe accurately) stated; CoV generally 'tightened up' the very loose design of the original City of Heroes game in the areas of Enhanced graphics, Story Lines, Story/Mission Arcs, Strike Forces, and indeed Epic Power Pool rationales. The APP's make less sense to me than the PPP's in that with the PPP's there is a Patron to train you into a new 'type' of Power Set. While with the APP's it really makes very little sense for a Heroic Energy/Energy Blaster to somehow 'acquire' Force Field Mastery or Munitions Mastery powers with no explanation as to just how they garnered this 'late in life' wisdom. I mean, if Sister Psyche were to be teaching you Force Field Mastery and Manticore to teach Munitions Mastery, wouldnt it have made more sense? City of Villains was CoH 2.0.
Oh, and for the record, (IMHO) Going Rogue is CoH 3.0. Isn't this a great game? We don't have to change the name (a la EQ2) to get a whole new game and worry about porting our old characters into the new game. We just 'Flash' back and pick them up.
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The thing is, Why would villains get powers from CoT, Malta, etc? They're constantly kicking the crap out of them, and honestly, they aren't as powerful (Storywise) as Arachnos. Besides, aren't the villains supposed to be working with/for Arachnos anyways?
And to explain APPs, I belives they are meant to follow this.
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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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Hmmm...I always thought APPs were meant to be, "My Fire Armor/Fire Melee Tanker can now THROW fireballs and not just beat people down with burning fists of doom" or however else you want to explain gaining new powers.|
Originally Posted by Kirsten
The thing is, Why would villains get powers from CoT, Malta, etc? They're constantly kicking the crap out of them, and honestly, they aren't as powerful (Storywise) as Arachnos. Besides, aren't the villains supposed to be working with/for Arachnos anyways?
And to explain APPs, I belives they are meant to follow this. |
Basically, up to the player on how they gained new powers. Extention of their powers, a new source of power, what have you.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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This is me trying to make it as how I would do it, based on past thoughts of Villain Patrons.|
Originally Posted by Paladin
This makes it sound like you're trying to derail this suggestion from ever actually happening in order to preserve the uniqueness of villain patrons. If that's the case then you should say so instead of trying to be sneaky or snarky about it. This whole exchange is oozing insincerity.
This idea's great, and I'm hoping the Devs will take a look. They've got a lot on their plate, but the concepts and power opportunities are worthwhile; the game's always been about customization, and hero patron pools from Longbow, Legacy Chain, Phalanx, etc., would make a wonderful addition to that. |
There was nothing but complaints about having tounlock the Villain Patrons. People hated the game telling them they got these new abilities because the Patron gave them access to it. They didn't like having their characters defined by this story arc.
Now, people want Hero Patrons, and it's not because of anything other than "I want those Villain Patron powers, but I don't want to side switch to get them, because I don't want to side switch/stop gaining hero merits"
Villain Patrons were widely considered a terrible idea, but more people are seeing them as great powers for lots of number related reasons.
My suggestion, if one is to do this, is to make it more of incentive to do it for numbers reasons, but really tag on the "are you sure...you know this is storyline driven" feel to it. You know, that storyline driven thing Patron Powers were at the beginning.
To me, that's the best way to go about it after the original complaints to Villain Patrons (which continued to be complained about before Villains got APPs).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Great as long as this is not gated behind yet another type of in-game currency that they nerf the ability to obtain.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
It's a Parity thing. not a power thing.
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Its definitely a Parity thing.
Currently both Heroes & Villains have access to APPs (without needing to switch sides).
Only Villains have access to PPPs without having to switch sides.
Making Hero PPPs available brings balance to both sides (imho it should have been done at the same time the APPs were opened up to Villains).
If the pools are different enough you will still have people switching sides for concept reasons.
Also Having Co-Op Patron Pools available to both sides is awesomesauce.
Kirsten, you hit a Homerun with this idea, Congrats.
Thank you, Steel.
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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
As I said before, positron visited and approved the AE building for use and noted that it would be useful for testing powers and TRAINING. This would fit your need for story line continuity. We could RP that he has been developing a training system in the AE for him and the other heroes who are to busy to personally train, can via the AE.
Positron could be the contact and the powers trained in would be: Positron, manticon, sister psyche, or synapse. those would be hero only patron powers. Positron would "make a call" to have the set of missions set up for you, then send you to the AE building for training in use of the specific powers (maybe in each mission a hologram of the hero who's powers you're useing would talk about them and their uses)
If you wanted to do vanguard, oroboros, or midnighters. Those would be based on completely different set of missions and would be available to both hero and villain. those might be unlocked by either completing all contacts in the respective area or a special mission arch.
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If we're going the parity route, how about increasing the number of SFs available on redside first?|
Originally Posted by Hero_of_Steel
Its definitely a Parity thing.
Currently both Heroes & Villains have access to APPs (without needing to switch sides). Only Villains have access to PPPs without having to switch sides. Making Hero PPPs available brings balance to both sides (imho it should have been done at the same time the APPs were opened up to Villains). If the pools are different enough you will still have people switching sides for concept reasons. Also Having Co-Op Patron Pools available to both sides is awesomesauce. Kirsten, you hit a Homerun with this idea, Congrats. |
The parity idea is not needed. Because all they need to do is make more APPs, which is a better idea, in that a person can then just grab the exact same powers available in the proposed Hero Patrons, without having to run an arc for them.
Also, both the hero and the villain have access to the Villain Patrons, but both having access to do the content. A bluesider going to redside is just doing content. There is nothing unequal about it, especially when one considers how easy it is to do and how everything becoming more and more meshed (ATs available on either side at lvl 1), end game content being all about Heros and Villains working together.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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This, in its entirety!
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Originally Posted by Hero_of_Steel
Its definitely a Parity thing.
Currently both Heroes & Villains have access to APPs (without needing to switch sides). Only Villains have access to PPPs without having to switch sides. Making Hero PPPs available brings balance to both sides (imho it should have been done at the same time the APPs were opened up to Villains). If the pools are different enough you will still have people switching sides for concept reasons. Also Having Co-Op Patron Pools available to both sides is awesomesauce. Kirsten, you hit a Homerun with this idea, Congrats. |
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Villain Patrons make you sound like a lackey too. But people still like them (some people anyway.) |
Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm not against Hero Patrons actually. I just think...
1) People didn't like Villain Patrons being unlocked or tied to the signature characters...now...it's "I want powers like the Villain Patrons, without having to go evil to obtain them" 2) No matter how much people want to say it's not, Hero Patron sounds like Sidekick to me, and I'd like to keep it that way with a Gold Title |
I like what the OP was getting at where your "patron" is more like an affiliation with one of Hero Corps' divisions. Less of a subserviency to some greater hero.
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4) Whatever you do come up with for Hero Patrons, why not just make them part of the existing Anicillary Pools? Go beyond the five powers! In fact, add more, as my Scrapper still doesn't have a Cold Mastery, or a decent Energy/Body Mastery. Also, tier them out and stop with the need this power requirement first (this make me sad the most) |
Too good to be true.
/signed.
How is it too good to be true? Or is that just speaking figuratively?
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
Added Cimeroran as a Co-Op Pool.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
This thread must see light again!
And we need to begin thinking about Goldside PPPs, we may finally be seeing level 50 stuff there in the next few issues.
Oh yeah! I also think it is very important that PPPs be tied to mission arcs just as they are now on the redside!
Hmm...What kind of stories might be tied to each pool?
Midnight Spells: Stop a Rulu-Shin incursion into the Shard while learning the secret skills of the Midnighters! Contact: Montague Castanella.
Vanguard Training: There's a mole in Vanguard who's selling secrets to none other than the Nemesis Army! Stop them, and maybe Lady Grey might teach you a few tricks! Contact: Gaussian.
Mender Knowledge: Somebody is attacking the menders in their own time-lines at vulnerable points! Stop the assailants, but be careful! Extended time meddling can change you! Contact: Flower Knight.
Legionnaire Training: Marathon has been tasked by Imperious with finding and training new recruits for the Cimeroran Army in order to combat the continuing menace of Romulus's rebel forces. Contact: Marathon
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Legacy Training: The Circle of Thorns has been abusing its magical expertise for long enough, and its leaders must be brought to justice! Contact: Serafina (Yes, this would replace the current Serafina, who is a store contact).
Wyvern Training: Listen up! The villainous scum of "You-Know-Where" are planning a full-scale attack on Paragon City. Now those cowardly maggots of Longbow aren't going to act without more proof. By the time they move their sorry rears, it'll be too late. So you'll be taking care of it. You will be provided with additional training, should you choose to accept it. Contact: Tactical Lieutenant Chelman.
Phalanxer: <Player>! I'm glad you came. With Statesman's death and the Praetorian threat, the Freedom Phalanx has been spread thin. I've been asked to find Heroes who are willing to sign on as temporary members. Contact: Brighid Moreira (The City Representative).
PPD Training: Hey you! Yeah, you! You're gonna help me clean up the streets. Got that? And don't gimme any of that "All the enemies here con gray" crap! The guys I'm gonna send you after are much bigger, and much meaner than any old street thug. I'm talking Hellions possessed by demons! Skulls with undead armies! OUTCAST THAT BLAST YOUR FACE OFF. Think you're hero enough? Prove it. Contact: Back Alley Brawler.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
Awesome sauce! That's the kinda stuff!
I didn't like the concept of being forced to buddy up with a Patron to get powers the first time it happened. And I actually like the Patrons.
The powers are cool, but please don't make me have to kiss a hero's *** for them.