That's the big one, really. Other than that...
- With higher base health things that add health are typically better on a brute. Similarly, activated healing powers are as well.
- Things that can push your resistances over 75% (tier 9 god modes, accolades, barrier destiny, team buffs, etc) aren't wasted on a brute, as they are on a scrapper. Armors that can push your resistance over 75% internally such as /fa or /elec are also nicer on a brute.
- Defense sets like SR are also arguably better on a brute, as their larger health pool helps when the mobs inevitably land hits.
Oh, and of course, Super Strength is nicer on a brute than it is on a scrapper. Neener, neener, neener. 
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Quote:
What about Energy Mel...oh who am I kidding.
|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Oh, and of course, Super Strength is nicer on a brute than it is on a scrapper. Neener, neener, neener.
|
I think /FA is better on brutes than scrappers, mainly because brutes get a taunt in blazing aura. On a scrapper, you hit burn and the critters flee but on the brute they just hang around and happily melt into nothingness.
In general...
* Scrappers and Brutes share the same values for Resistance and Defense. HOWEVER, Scrappers cap at 75% while Brutes cap at 90%. In addition, Brutes have higher Hit Points giving them better survivability.
* Brutes have a higher Damage cap (775% vs 500%) meaning that they have the potential to do more damage.
* A Brutes ability to do damage is heavily tied into their Fury Bar. Scrappers do more damage right out of the gate, and can spike randomly due to their Critical Hit ability.
* Both have a set currently unavailable to the other, Martial Arts for Scrappers and Super Strength for Brutes.
* Brutes have a better ability to draw aggro, allowing them to tank when called upon.
In the end, both ATs have their pros and cons. Each has something over the other and they are roughly equal. Which one you pick depends on which power sets you want, what fits your character idea better and what fits your play-style better.
Note: just because a powerset is biased toward a particular AT doesn't mean that you should avoid playing that powerset with the other AT. In some cases, the bias is VERY small or may rely on the benefits of a Tier 9 godmode power. Powersets with large biases are noted with a "*".
Brute-Biased Primaries: Dark, Stone, Super Strength
Brute-Biased Secondaries: Dark (no mez auras), Elec, Energy, Fire, Invuln*, Regen*, Stone*, Willpower*
Scrapper-Biased Primaries: Claws*, Dual Blades*, Kinetic Melee*, Martial Arts*, Spines
Scrapper-Biased Secondaries: Dark (with mez auras), Shield*
Unbiased Primaries: Battle Axe, Broadsword, Elec, Energy, Fire, Katana, War Mace
Unbiased Secondaries: Super Reflexes
Pseudopets: Pseudopets created by things like Lightning Rod or Shield Charge favor Scrappers, due to their higher base damage and the pseudopets' lower damage caps. Elec favors Scrappers in this regard, but favors Brutes a little with higher resistance caps and taunt in the damage aura, which is why I listed it as unbiased.
Taunt Auras: If you want a strong Taunt Aura, you pick Invuln or Shield. If you want a Taunt Aura and you're a Scrapper, your options are limited to Invuln, Shield, or Willpower. If you don't want a Taunt Aura, you play a Scrapper of any sort other than Invuln, Shield, or Willpower.
Mez Auras: The Dark secondary splits for me, depending on whether you want to use the mez auras or not. Mezzed opponents either don't attack or attack much less frequently, so Brutes build less Fury. If you want to use the mez auras, then I recommend Scrapper. If not, then Brute is the way to go.
EPP/PPP: One Patron Power in particular heavily favors Scrappers: Shadow Meld. If you're taking the Scrapper redside or are willing to do so to get the power, then that extra defense can tip the balance for Regen and possibly other sets toward Scrappers. If you're looking for another great attack for your chain, Brutes love Gloom.
Proliferation: It'll happen someday. Scrappers will get Super Strength and it will heavily favor them (+Dmg). Brutes will get Spines and it will heavily favor them (Damage Aura). Stone Melee would be neutral, but Brutes can get a little more out of Granite, so Stone Armor would remain Brute-biased.
I'd have to disagree that Claws is heavily biased towards a Scrapper. Brute Claws has some tweaks that allow it to hold it's own, if not surpass the Scrapper set. If you just listed it as a Scrapper bias because of Follow up's +dam buff, you are mistaken.
scrapper spin base recharge is listed in MIDs as 9.2s, vs brute 14s.
I'd add electric melee to the list favored by scraps due to the pet dmg cap issues. As to ElA, brutes do get a dmg aura but scrappers get their heal earlier.
As to dark armor on brutes, for me soaking an alpha gets my fury up (it takes the mez auras a sec to lock stuff down, you'll still get smacked jumping into mobs just fine), and it's easier than it used to be to maintain just by attacking. More of an issue for me is the stealth, which requires me to stay a bit ahead of my team if I want to get that alpha (otherwise the mobs start attacking the more visible players at range before i can grab aggro).
As to epic powers, I prefer brute soul to scrapper for gloom and darkest night; I don't think there's a clear winner there. Brutes get access to energy mastery, which is slightly better than body mastery imo. Brute Mu Mastery has an extra Aoe, vs the snipe in the scrapper version. Arctic and Earth mastery, the most controller-y epics, are not available to scrappers.
Quote:
We had a whole thread on this a way back http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=265173|
Originally Posted by EJI
scrapper spin base recharge is listed in MIDs as 9.2s, vs brute 14s.
. |
Long story short. Claws is better on a brute. By so little as to not matter.
Global: @Kelig
Quote:
Well, if Claws are better on a brute, but by so little as to really matter, then they are effectively not better, right? And in fact, given statistical variation, may actually be better sometimes on a Scrapper. And if it is better sometimes on a Scrapper, then (given a good string of luck) it might consistently be better on a scrapper.|
Originally Posted by joebartender
We had a whole thread on this a way back http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=265173
Long story short. Claws is better on a brute. By so little as to not matter. |
So, it's probably better on a Scapper.
Okay, i'm away from my desk for awhile, having solved that. Sheesh.
You can flip it around and say it's sometimes better on a Brute. Although, I'd say it's better on a Brute most of the time, specifically when it's paired with a taunt aura. Where the Scrapper only has two secondaries to work with that fall into that category.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Quote:
The thing you want to consider, is that brutes got a higher damage scale on claws attacks, instead of lowered endurance cost, and lowered recharge (which is what scrappers got)|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Well, if Claws are better on a brute, but by so little as to really matter, then they are effectively not better, right? And in fact, given statistical variation, may actually be better sometimes on a Scrapper. And if it is better sometimes on a Scrapper, then (given a good string of luck) it might consistently be better on a scrapper.
So, it's probably better on a Scapper. Okay, i'm away from my desk for awhile, having solved that. Sheesh. |
Because of that, brutes will out class scrappers using claws, but the margin will mostly depend on secondaries (a claw/WP brute will be light years ahead of a claw/wp scrapper, but a claw/EA scrapper will do slightly better then a claw/EA brute)
It has actually been scientifically determined, by the dpsologists and minmaximillians of this very forum, that brutes are always better than scrappers. For your perusal, a few facts:
Fact: Brutes can solo AVs. Scrappers cannot.
Fact: Brutes can survive incoming damage. Scrappers cannot.
Fact: Scrappers dissolve in water over 143 degrees Fahrenheit. Brutes don't know the meaning of the word water.
For these and trillions of other reasons, I suggest you "scrap" any idea of making a scrapper and instead join the one true path, the exalted enlightenment that is SS/FA. Thy holy tickets await thee.
Thanks for the link, joebartender.
Also, do not feed the trolls.
Quote:
Don't forget about Stone Melee.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
snip snip...
* Both have a set currently unavailable to the other, Martial Arts for Scrappers and Super Strength for Brutes. |
In a nut shell.
Brutes have a tad more survivability.
Scrappers do a tad more damage.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
Quote:
True. For me, though, those are the two big ones.|
Originally Posted by _Pine_
Don't forget about Stone Melee.
In a nut shell. Brutes have a tad more survivability. Scrappers do a tad more damage. |
...Scrappers with SS... That would be cool.
Quote:
Except they would nerf the hell outta it...|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
True. For me, though, those are the two big ones.
...Scrappers with SS... That would be cool. |
Like not letting Foot Stomp crit.
Plus, SS is pretty lackluster until you get rage. Its balanced around rage. And its -10000% damage buff. I'd love to see a scrapper hit KoB under the rage crash, and it crit, doing 4 damage. instead of 2...
Quote:
I used to think this too, until some people started pointing out that Claws actually outperforms SS even after factoring in Rage.
|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Except they would nerf the hell outta it...
|
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
This part is true.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Plus, SS is pretty lackluster until you get rage. Its balanced around rage. And its -10000% damage buff. I'd love to see a scrapper hit KoB under the rage crash, and it crit, doing 4 damage. instead of 2... |
SS is actually a poorly designed set.
The lower tier attacks are pathetic, and only get close to being up to par with Rage going.
Rage, KO Blow and Foot Stomp are basically the entire set.
Without Gloom, SS has fairly terrible ST DPS.
Quote:
But claws on a scrapper is balanced different then claws on a brute. And compared Claws on a brute to SS on a brute would throw claws in the lead (mainly due to the -damage completely killing the fury mechanic)|
Originally Posted by macskull
I used to think this too, until some people started pointing out that Claws actually outperforms SS even after factoring in Rage.
|
Claws on a scrapper would have the constant follow up buff, but Rage would surpass that, especially double stack, or even triple stacked rage. Scrappers higher damage scale would turn even jab into a useful power, and its pretty easy to get a nice attack chain in SS using the 4 single target attacks. As long as you got the recharge on KoB down, it'll be amazing damage, especially if they let it crit.
Foot Stomp pretty much out performs Spin in most cases, you just get Spin much sooner then you get foot stomp. If they allows Foot stomp to crit, and keep its KU, it'll be amazing on scrappers.
Triple stacked rage, plus assault and some +damage set bonuses would mean you could get a scrapper to pretty close to its damage cap solo.... (240% damage, + 95% from enhancements, and another 10-12% from assault is 345% damage, scrappers cap at 400%...)
It'll need to be tuned down a little bit before scrapper get it. Not enough to make it weak, but enough to not be insanely overpowered.
Quote:
Nobody ever posted numbers in that thread or what they were based on, did they?|
Originally Posted by joebartender
We had a whole thread on this a way back http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=265173
Long story short. Claws is better on a brute. By so little as to not matter. |
As far as I can tell, faster recharge, higher base damage, and crits all favor Scrappers, but maybe not enough. Depending on the parameters (e.g. damage cap, Fury level, crit percentage, base recharge, follow up stacks, etc.), you could get very different results.
If you assume the same attack chain and no damage buffs outside of crits or Fury (say, at 85%), Brutes would likely come out ahead (e.g. Focus DPA = 174.15 Brute vs. 150.50 Scrapper). That scenario is stacked in the Brute's favor, though, and ignores the advantages of faster recharge times and Follow Up.
A single stack of Follow Up added into the Scrapper's damage puts them slightly over an 85% Fury Brute that isn't running Follow Up (and why would any Brute run Follow Up?). That's assuming 70% minions for crit purposes, which was a number I picked essentially at random (Focus DPA = 174.15 Brute vs. 179.44 Scrapper). A double stack increases the gap further (Focus DPA = 174.15 Brute vs. 208.39 Scrapper). I'm unclear as to how three stacks would work or even if the game allows a third stack to work.
The downside of adding in Follow Up is that you have to eat its DPA somewhere in your attack chain. Follow Up's DPA is weak, so you have to factor in that dip with the Scrapper attack chain. One stack probably isn't worth it, but a second starts to push things in the right direction. The more damage buffs come into play with the Scrapper, the more the difference shows up.
Haven't worked much with figuring out the optimal possible chain for either or how much recharge it would require. There are players here that are far better at those things than I am.
Why would the brute not use followup? It gives +tohit as well as +damage. Your assuming 'identical attack chains, except the brute not using its +damage power, and the scrapper is, so obviously the scrapper comes out ahead..'
Your also not providing which attack chain your using..
Quote:
I address all that in the entirety of the post? Though I guess I didn't come right out and say that Brutes wouldn't use Follow Up, because it isn't efficient for them, as far as I can tell. The bonus is lower (30% vs. 37.5%) and the impact is significantly reduced due to lower base damage (0.75 Scale vs. 1.125 Scale). It isn't quite twice as effective for Scrappers, but the advantage is significant. You can create a Brute chain without Follow Up that does more DPS than a Brute chain with Follow Up, double-stacked or not.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Why would the brute not use followup? It gives +tohit as well as +damage. Your assuming 'identical attack chains, except the brute not using its +damage power, and the scrapper is, so obviously the scrapper comes out ahead..'
Your also not providing which attack chain your using.. |
The two ATs should use different attack chains. Scrappers recharge faster, so better options are available, at least until enough recharge is added to allow the Brute to run the Scrapper chain, which would give the Scrapper too much recharge, assuming equivalent builds. If you're giving the Brute enough recharge to run the Scrapper's best chain, then the Scrapper's build should be adjusted to benefit elsewhere, so it isn't just wasting recharge.
Which chains would be best for each is up for analysis.
You need to look at the damage scale again:
Brutes get .80 damage scale and
Scrappers get .84 damage scale
The higher recharge time on scrappers doesn't equate into higher DPA, which the brutes have. Look at the other attacks:
Swipe: .83 for brutes, .798 for scrappers
Strike: 1.24 for brutes, 1.134 for scrappers
Slash: 1.48 for brutes, 1.386 for scrappers
Spin: 1.89 for brutes, 1.659 for scrappers
Focus: 1.51 for brutes, 1.4595 for scrappers
Eviserate: 2.181 for brutes, 2.2885 for scrappers
Shockwave: 1.13 for brutes, 1.1025 for scrappers.
So, in everything but Eviserate, and Follow up, brutes have a higher damage scale then scrapper do for the attacks. Granted, Scrappers have a higher damage mod then brutes do (the .75 vs 1.125) but Fury balances that out, meaning brutes will pull ahead.
The recharge difference doesn't make up for the higher damage, and a brute can run the same attack chains as a scrapper, they just need more +recharge in order to get there.
For example, lets take your basic 4 attack claws attack chain of Follow up, focus, slash, swipe at 75% fury for a brute, and at 10% crit chance for a scrapper:
For a brute: (33.37+(33.37*.75)) + (62.98+(62.98*.75)) + (61.72+(61.72*.75)) + (34.62+(34.62*.75)) = 58.3975 + 110.215 + 108.01 + 60.585 = 337.2075 in 4.16 seconds, or about 81.06DPA
For a scrapper: (50.05+(50.05*.1)) + (86.96+(86.96*.1)) + (82.58+(82.58*.1)) + (47.55+(47.55*.1)) = 55.055 + 95.655 + 90.838 + 52.305 = 293.853 in 4.16 seconds, or about 70.64DPA.
Now, if you add in double stacked followup to the mix, you'll multiple the numbers of .6 for the brute, and .75 for the scrapper, giving you 539.532 total damage for the brute, a DPA of 129.70 and 512.24275 total damage for the scrapper, a DPA of 123.62.
Now, the above numbers are pulled straight from red tomax, and don't account for arcanaville time, but it does give the brute about 5% higher damage, with equal attack chains. Granted, the brute will need more recharge to hit that chain then the scrapper would, but its not impossible.
Plus Followup recharges exactly the same on brutes as it does on scrappers (12 seconds) which means the recharge requirement, would be about the same on brutes as it would be on scrapper due to follow up being the main crutch of the attack chain.
Quote:
You're not looking at the right thing (see: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Scale), You even reference it in your post, but call it a damage modifer. Melee damage scale for the Brute AT is 0.750. Melee damage scale for the Scrapper AT is 1.125. That's +50% over Brute, so not exactly a pittance. Attacks have their own damage scale, which is what you're referencing. I would agree that the two items using the same term can be confusing, though.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
|
Quote:
| The higher recharge time on scrappers doesn't equate into higher DPA, which the brutes have. Look at the other attacks... |
DPA has nothing to do with recharge time, so not sure where you thought I was saying it did? DPA is a good way of understanding particular attacks. If you want to know if Focus is better than Swipe or how Scrapper Focus compares to Brute Focus, then look to DPA. If you want to know which attack chain performs best, which is probably the best way to compare Scrapper and Brute, DPS is the best way to understand attack chains.
Speaking of DPS, that does have a lot to do with recharge times and Scrappers have faster-recharging attacks. That means you can cut some fluff out of the chain and make something a little more optimal. This is balanced by adding in Follow Up to some degree.
The updates have brought me back in force and back when I played previously I had a moderately high level brute. With all ATs open to all sides I'm now more seriously looking at scrappers as well. Is there a good guideline of what sets (or combination thereof) that are "better" on a scrapper vs. those that are "better" on a brute? I know, for example, that +dam is better, generally, on a scrapper.
Thanks.