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I referenced both of those things, in which i said that Fury (the brute inherent mechanic) more then makes up for the higher damage scale that Scrappers have. Another way to look at it is is:|
Originally Posted by streetlight
You're not looking at the right thing (see: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Scale), You even reference it in your post, but call it a damage modifer. Melee damage scale for the Brute AT is 0.750. Melee damage scale for the Scrapper AT is 1.125. That's +50% over Brute, so not exactly a pittance. Attacks have their own damage scale, which is what you're referencing. I would agree that the two items using the same term can be confusing, though.
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http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Cap#Damage
Scrapper damage scale = 1.125 Damage cap = 4.0
Brute Damage scale = .750 damage cap = 6.75
Scrappers maximum possible damage on a scale 1.0 attack = 1.125 * 4 = 4.5
Brutes Maximum possible damage on a scale 1.0 attack = .750 * 6.75 = 5.0625
So, at the damage cap, on a scale 1.0 attack, brutes will do more damage (when you don't account for critical hits, accounting for critical hits adds about .45 to scrappers, putting them at 4.95, still lower then brutes)
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| Brutes have lower DPA than Scrappers across the board (thanks to the AT damage scale), until you add in some arbitrarily chosen amount of Fury. How much to choose? I like 85%. It's pretty easy to achieve and maintain in extended fights, even with teammates. You'll go above sometimes and below sometimes, but that number seems to work well for me. |
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DPA has nothing to do with recharge time, so not sure where you thought I was saying it did? DPA is a good way of understanding particular attacks. If you want to know if Focus is better than Swipe or how Scrapper Focus compares to Brute Focus, then look to DPA. If you want to know which attack chain performs best, which is probably the best way to compare Scrapper and Brute, DPS is the best way to understand attack chains. Speaking of DPS, that does have a lot to do with recharge times and Scrappers have faster-recharging attacks. That means you can cut some fluff out of the chain and make something a little more optimal. This is balanced by adding in Follow Up to some degree. |
Lets again look at the standard 4 attack chain for claws, which is Followup -> Focus -> slash -> swipe. This is using the 3 highest DPA attacks (which is what you want to use for an attack chain) and adding in followup to supplement those attacks.
Brutes recharge requirements for the chain:
Followup -> 203% recharge
Focus -> 116% recharge
Slash -> 86% recharge
Swipe -> 0% recharge
Scrapper recharge requirements for the chain:
Followup -> 203% recharge
Focus -> 73% recharge
Slash -> 40% recharge
Swipe -> 0% recharge
As you can see, both the brute and the scrapper need over 200% recharge in followup to run identical chains. The scrapper could slot less recharge in the other powers (about 40% less) but with the massive global recharge required to meet the followup requirement, the brute will have the same chain as the scrapper with identical slotting.
So your 'But the recharge is faster on a scrapper' it a mute point due to the fact that followup recharges in the exact same time on both ATs, forcing that power to be the crutch of any attack chain you make. Unless you want to try to tell me again that a brute wouldn't use followup but i can't see a reason why they wouldn't. Its still a pretty constant 30 - 60% damage increase, and even with damage bonuses being over saturated due to fury, its still a pretty hefty increase.
Now, lets run the numbers again, this time while I'm at home, and I can use mids to get the correct arcanaville time.
Brute at 75% fury:
Followup does 83.42 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.056 total DPA = 78.996
Focus does 157.4 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.32 total DPA = 119.242
Slash does 154.3 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.584 total DPA = 96.412
Swipe does 86.54 damage, with an arancatime of 1.056 total DPA = 81.951
Total damage = 481.66 in 5.016 seconds, for a total DPS of 96.025
Add in double stacked followup and you have 481.66 * 1.6 = 770.66 damage, boosting your DPS to 153.64
Scrapper with 10% critical chance:
Followup does 55.05 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.056 total DPA = 52.131
Focus does 95.66 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.32 total DPA = 72.47
Slash does 90.84 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.584 total DPA = 57.348
Swipe does 52.3 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.056 total DPA = 49.53
Total damage = 293.85 in 5.016 seconds, for a total DPS of 58.582
Add in double stacked followup and you have 293.85 * 1.75 = 514.74, boosting your DPS to 102.52.
Brute is ahead by 33% damage. Even when accounting for the higher recharge times, and lower boost of followup.
lets look at the highest DPA attack chain you can make on a claws, which is followup, focus, slash.
the recharge requirement would be at follows:
Brute:
Followup -> 313% recharge
Focus -> 203% recharge
Slash -> 169% recharge
Scrappers:
Followup -> 313% recharge
Focus -> 142% recharge
Slash -> 102% recharge
In this case, the brute would need about 60% more recharge in focus and slash to keep up with the scrapper, but with the crutch being on followup, the global recharge requirement may still be enough to make up for it, with identical builds.
Now, lets look at the damage, with a brute at 75% fury, and 10% critical chance for the scrappers:
Brute:
Followup does 83.42 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.056 total DPA = 78.996
Focus does 157.4 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.32 total DPA = 119.242
Slash does 154.3 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.584 total DPA = 96.412
Total damage = 395.12 in 3.96 seconds, for a total DPS of 99.78
Adding in triple stacked followup and you have 395.12 * 1.9 = 750.73 boosting your total DPS to 189.58
Scrapper:
Followup does 55.05 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.056 total DPA = 52.131
Focus does 95.66 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.32 total DPA = 72.47
Slash does 90.84 damage, with an arcanatime of 1.584 total DPA = 57.348
Total damage = 241.55 in 3.96 seconds for a total DPS of 60.99
Adding in triple stacked followup and you have 241.55 * 2.125 = 513.29 boosting your total DPS to 129.62.
Brute still pulls out ahead by 32%. With identical builds using both the average attack chain, and the highest end attack chain. Brute requires about 40% more recharge in slash and focus for the 'average' attack chain, and about 60% more recharge in slash and focus for the 'highest end' attack chain. Both ATs require the same amount of recharge in followup.
So.. how exactly do scrapper do more damage with claws then brutes do? Because my math is showing about a 33% damage increase, favoring the brutes. Now, my math does use base values, so once you add in damage enhancements those numbers may change, and the gap may close a little bit, but I'm pretty sure the brute will still pull out ahead.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Claws gets animation locked fast.
Without aggro holding capabilities, stuff runs away. Some forumites live in a world where optimal situations are commonplace, including and even when such situations are actually mathematically impossible. Those are the three important facts to keep in mind when looking at Claws, in my opinion. |
your second point is pretty much mute, due to the fact that it happens to anyone without a taunt aura, and currently every single one of the brute armor sets that can use claws, comes with a taunt aura.
While 'some forumites' may live in such a world, I do my best to average out everything i can. I/e picking 75% fury instead of 100% or even 85% fury, as 75% is much better to maintain and easier to reach in a quick fight. 10% critical chance is pretty much on par for how to work with scrapper criticals.
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I didn't want to go through all your math, but I thought I would point out an error you made initially here - you forgot to include the base 1.0 damage in the damage cap multiplier. Its true that brutes cannot get more than +675% damage and scrappers cannot get more than +400% damage, but you get total damage by multiplying base * (1+damage bonuses), so your your above math should come out as:|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
I referenced both of those things, in which i said that Fury (the brute inherent mechanic) more then makes up for the higher damage scale that Scrappers have. Another way to look at it is is:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Cap#Damage Scrapper damage scale = 1.125 Damage cap = 4.0 Brute Damage scale = .750 damage cap = 6.75 Scrappers maximum possible damage on a scale 1.0 attack = 1.125 * 4 = 4.5 Brutes Maximum possible damage on a scale 1.0 attack = .750 * 6.75 = 5.0625 So, at the damage cap, on a scale 1.0 attack, brutes will do more damage (when you don't account for critical hits, accounting for critical hits adds about .45 to scrappers, putting them at 4.95, still lower then brutes) |
Scrappers maximum possible damage on a scale 1.0 attack = 1.125 * 5 = 5.6125
Brutes Maximum possible damage on a scale 1.0 attack = .750 * 7.75 = 5.8125
While that leaves brutes in the lead, if you are going to include any fury in the brutes damage total you also need to include scrappers crits (yes, I know you include them below - but you need to include them in all your numbers just so folks don't call you on it). Including just a 5% crit chance raises the scrapper cap up to 5.83125 - which puts them slightly ahead of brutes.
Also, in your later calculations when you are working on the brute vs scrapper chains and factoring in the stacked follow up, it looks like you might be factoring in the follow up boost incorrectly since follow up is a damage boost that modifies the base damage (just like fury). It looks to me like you factored in the fury boost first into each attack, calculated the overall DPS then multiplied that by the stacked damage boost from follow up - which is incorrect. Follow up's damage boost is also going to be watered down by damage enhancments already in the power and I can't tell if you have factored those into the attacks or not.
So, for example, for a brute fully damage slotted focus is going to have about 95% damage enhancement (3 even level SO's give you 94.93%, 3 L30 IO's gives you 95.66%, so I am splitting the difference). Combining that with 75% fury and 90% damage from triple stacked follow up gives you
62.98(base) x (1 + 0.95+1.50+0.9) = 273.963
Where the scrapper will have
95.66(base) x (1 + 0.95 + 1.125) x 1.05 (crits) = 301.32
Because crits are a true doubling of damage and are not watered down by other damage enhancments.
EDIT: I even made a mistake above - Mids auto includes scrapper crits in base damage, so the base damage for scrapper focus at L50 is 86.96 - reworking the attack chains and showing math, will add in a later post.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
I went with base numbers, but your right, i think i did multiple the followup bonus odd.
Lets see what the numbers are this way using the 'average' attack chain of followup->focus->slash->swipe
For a brute
Double stacked followup adds 60% damage, fury adds 150% damage, so you'll have:
Followup -> 103.4 damage
Focus -> 195.2 damage
Slash -> 191.4 damage
Swipe -> 107.3 damage
Total -> 610.7 damage, over 5.016 seconds, or 121.75DPS
For a scrapper
Double stacked followup adds 75% damage, Criticals at 10%, so you'll have
Followup -> 96.34 damage
Focus -> 167.4 damage
Slash -> 159 damage
Swipe -> 91.53 damage
Total -> 514.27 damage, over 5.016 seconds, or 102.53DPS
Brute is ahead by about 16%.
Lets look at the higher end attack chain for Followup->focus->slash
For a brute with triple stacked followup and 75% fury:
Followup -> (33.37+(33.37*2.4)) = 113.46
Focus -> (62.98+(62.98*2.4)) = 214.13
Slash -> (61.73+(61.73*2.4)) = 209.88
Total damage -> 537.47, over 3.96 seconds, or 135.73DPS
For a scrapper, with 10% crit chance, and triple stacked followup:
Followup gives 112.5% damage, 10% critical is adding another about 10% damage to each power
Followup -> (50.05+(50.05*1.225)) = 111.36
Focus -> (86.96+(86.96*1.225)) = 193.486
Slash -> (82.58+(82.58*1.225)) = 183.74
Total damage -> 488.59, over 3.96 seconds, or about 123.38DPS
So even with triple stacked followup, the brute pulls out ahead by about 9%.
This is again, at base so enhancements might chance those numbers a little bit more. For a fun exercise, lets try it.
Brute: 75% fury, double stacked followup, and 95% damage enhancement, for a total of 305% +damage
Followup -> 135.2
Focus -> 255.5
Slash -> 250.4
Swipe-> 140.5
Total damage -> 781.6 damage in 5.016 seconds, or about 155.82DPS
Scrapper: Double stacked followup, 95% damage enhancements, and 10% crit chance, for a combined damage bonus of 180%
Followup -> 149.1
Focus -> 259
Slash -> 245.9
Swipe -> 141.6
Total damage -> 795.6 damage in 5.016 seconds, or about 158.61DPS
Putting the scrapper ahead by 1.8%
Brute: 75% fury, triple stacked followup, and 95% damage enhancements, for a total of 335% +damage
Followup -> (33.37+(33.37*3.35)) = 145.16
Focus -> (62.98+(62.98*3.35)) = 273.96
Slash -> (61.73+(61.73*3.35)) = 268.53
Total damage -> 687.65 damage, over 3.96 seconds, or about 173.65DPS
Scrapper: Triple stacked followup, 10% crit chance, and 95% damage enhancement, for a total of 217.5% +damage
Followup -> (50.05+(50.05*2.175)) = 158.91
Focus -> (86.96+(86.96*2.175)) = 276.1
Slash -> (82.58+(82.58*2.175)) = 262.19
Total damage -> 697.2 damage, over 3.96 seconds, or about 176.06DPS
Putting the scrapper ahead by 1.3%...
It seems pretty neck and neck with the brute getting a slight advantage before 95% enhancement values, and the scrapper getting a slight advantage after 95% enhancement values.
Granted, I am working with 75% fury, and not going any higher, so larger fury values may push the brute into higher DPS numbers.
Well, I ran just the faster chain with triple stacked follow up and included only a 5% crit chance. It looks to me like you are still calculating the damage multipliers incorrectly, either leaving out the base multiplier or not including the enhancments, here is what I got (with everything layed out so that its easier to see where I may have made a mistake :-).
Brute Attack Chain DPS calculations (followup -> focus - > Slash)
Damage Base: 1.0
Slotted Enhancements: 95% (0.95)
75% Fury: 150% damage (1.5)
Triple Followup: 90% damage (0.9)
Total Attack multipliers are 1 + 0.95 + 1.5 + 0.9 = 4.35
Follow up: 33.37 (base) x 4.35 = 145.1595
Focus: 62.98 (base) x 4.35 = 273.963
Slash: 61.73 (base) x 4.35 = 268.5255
DPS = Total Damage/attack time = (145.1595 + 273.963 + 268.5255) / (1.056 + 1.32 + 1.584) = 687.648/3.96 = 173 DPS
Scrapper Attack Chain Calculations (Same as above, making sure to turn off crits in Mids:-):
Damage base: 1.0
Slotted Enhancements: 95% (0.95)
Triple Followup: 112.5% (1.125)
Total Attack Multipliers: 1 + 0.95 + 1.125 = 3.075
Follow up: 50.05 (base ) x 3.075 = 153.90375
Focus: 86.96 (base) x 3.075 = 267.402
Slash: 82.58 (base) x 3.075 = 253.9335
For scrappers, we factor in the crits now at 5% (so multplying total damage by 1.05), so the DPS calculation is:
DPS = total damage/attack time = (153.90375 + 267.402 + 253.9335) * 1.05 (crits)/(1.056 + 1.32 + 1.584) = 709.0012125 / 3.96 = 179 DPS
Final values - Brute DPS = 173, Scrapper DPS 179
NOTE: for some reason the current version of Mids lists the brute follow up activation time as 2.64s (2.772 w/arcanatime) so its a good thing to double check these values in game when you want to be sure, as the real activation time is 0.83s (1.056s w/arcanatime), the same as the scrappers.
I will say that while your numbers in the previous post may be slightly off, they do reflect the same things I saw in earlier calculations done on the scrapper boards when brute claws first came out - the more recharge you add in, the closer scrappers and brutes get. At the absolute highest end (capped damage, max recharge needed) I think scrappers end up ahead, mostly due to crits, but things are SOO close in most cases that unless all you care about is pylon times, it really boils down to a matter of AT preference. Especially since pylon runs are about the only way to even SEE the numbers we are calculating - since it will take at nearly 8 seconds to GET triple stacked follow up and by then you will have done 1000+ points of damage to your initial target, which means most things are going to be dead or nearly dead before you can get cranked up.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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Fun, fun. I don't feel like being constructive today so instead of arguing "CP" in that "CP vs PP" thread on the scrapper forum, I'll pointlessly gloat in the middle of this pointless argument.|
I'm not sure what you mean by animation locked, as claws as some of the fastest animations in the entire game. your second point is pretty much mute, due to the fact that it happens to anyone without a taunt aura, and currently every single one of the brute armor sets that can use claws, comes with a taunt aura. While 'some forumites' may live in such a world, I do my best to average out everything i can. I/e picking 75% fury instead of 100% or even 85% fury, as 75% is much better to maintain and easier to reach in a quick fight. 10% critical chance is pretty much on par for how to work with scrapper criticals. |
Claws powers have the same animation times between brutes and scrappers, which means having higher base recharge doesn't linearly correlate to a decrease in damage. Even on brutes, Claws recharge fast enough and animate slow enough that any build is going to end up with multiple powers being up, faster than you can use them.
I'm tempted to wait for someone with no grasp of relativity to freak out all over the use of the word "slow" to describe Claws animations, but I'll be nice and point out right away that, well, it's all relative, being "slow enough" and all. Sort of related to that, although on a tangent, there's the assumption that a powerset has to do better damage on the brute than on the scrapper to be better on the brute. This is a simplistic, binary way to look at it ; brutes are supposed to do less damage, so a powerset that does x% less damage whereas the norm is to do 2x% less damage is a powerset that is better on brutes.
As for the second point, you make the biggest misconception that singlehandedly breaks down so many forum theories, the idea that any shared shortcoming affects every powerset equally. A powerset balanced around a constant damage buff is more affected by something running away than another powerset with no such constraints, and so is a powerset with a 8 feet radius PBAoE versus a 15 feet radius PBAoE. This is why looking at damage, activation time and recharge in a vacuum is just as bad as looking at individual powers by themselves, it ignores too much of the actual data.
75% Fury is reasonable... Once the fight is going, assuming no travel time from group to group and non-dynamic content. What is most played at high level these days? Itrials. Oopsie.
10% critical chance makes sense... Against a single tough target with enough HP so that it's actually useful rather than overkill. How often do you fight AVs compared to lieutenants? I'll let you do the exact math, but spoiler alert: lieutenants win at the end.
Am I right in believing that Brutes are intended to be sturdier than Scrappers but do less damage, so that they are effectivley in between Tanks and Scrappers on a continuum?
Because if that's true, and if, as some assert, Brutes actually do more damage than Scrappers, shouldn't we expect some sort of Brutewide nerf to get them to where they are supposed to be?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Yes, but Brutes are not in the center of that continuum with Scrappers on one far end and Tankers on the other.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Am I right in believing that Brutes are intended to be sturdier than Scrappers but do less damage, so that they are effectivley in between Tanks and Scrappers on a continuum?
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Brutes are much closer to the Scrapper end of the continuum.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Because if that's true, and if, as some assert, Brutes actually do more damage than Scrappers, shouldn't we expect some sort of Brutewide nerf to get them to where they are supposed to be?
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They are discussing one particular power set, Claws, where the answer is not so clear - and not the entire AT as a whole.
I'm not going to step into that part of the conversation, it's already being covered and discussed.
Brutes and Scrappers always fighting for second place behind stalkers.
*Placates*
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Is there any reason to make a kat/wp as a scrapper (other than avoiding the fury mechanic)? Is the scrap damage high enough to notice a difference?
If only the believed scalar was true between survivablity and damage. Then the scale would look like this, from most survivable to most damage
Tanks->Brutes->Scrappers->Stalkers.
However, in terms of damage, it goes
Tanks->Stalkers->Brutes->Scrappers. :/
IMHO of course.
Stalkers should be Single Target kings with the amount of damage they can pump out, noting how low their HP cap is.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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One thing that hasn't been brought up is one of SS's better virtues, Knockdown. It has a LOT of Knockdown in it's main attack chain making it a bit safer for you and your team. Other sets do KD too as well, War Mace most notably, but the only melee attack that doesn't do KD is Jab which some Brutes skip.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
But claws on a scrapper is balanced different then claws on a brute. And compared Claws on a brute to SS on a brute would throw claws in the lead (mainly due to the -damage completely killing the fury mechanic)
Claws on a scrapper would have the constant follow up buff, but Rage would surpass that, especially double stack, or even triple stacked rage. Scrappers higher damage scale would turn even jab into a useful power, and its pretty easy to get a nice attack chain in SS using the 4 single target attacks. As long as you got the recharge on KoB down, it'll be amazing damage, especially if they let it crit. Foot Stomp pretty much out performs Spin in most cases, you just get Spin much sooner then you get foot stomp. If they allows Foot stomp to crit, and keep its KU, it'll be amazing on scrappers. Triple stacked rage, plus assault and some +damage set bonuses would mean you could get a scrapper to pretty close to its damage cap solo.... (240% damage, + 95% from enhancements, and another 10-12% from assault is 345% damage, scrappers cap at 400%...) It'll need to be tuned down a little bit before scrapper get it. Not enough to make it weak, but enough to not be insanely overpowered. |
If you do take Jab though you can add in the Kinetic Combat KD Proc.
Okay, I'm done. No more SS for me today. Unless I play my new SS/Inv, but that's another thing...
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They are very similar in damage range. It feels like they nerfed kat a bit on brutes, in that it should have been pretty close to even at 67 fury, but feels like it needs closer to 82 to break even. I'm still working on my builds, due to limited time It'll be months before they are both finished enough to do apples to apples testing. For now all I have is purely subjective.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
Is there any reason to make a kat/wp as a scrapper (other than avoiding the fury mechanic)? Is the scrap damage high enough to notice a difference?
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The brute may need a bit more fury than "usual" to fully leverage katana compared to other primaries, but WP is definitely better off as Brute. However, I wanted Shadowmeld with mine, so I went scrapper, that and I didn't want to wait on i21 for all my new builds, I wanted one I could start early.
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This is a complicated question to answer. To really answer it properly, I have to take a step back and discuss a major difference between City of Heroes and most MMOs. In most MMOs, the amount of damage you can do and your net survivability are very predictable, particularly damage. Powers have DPS ratings that specify just exactly how much damage you can expect to get out of them. And they usually have power couplings or global cooldowns to ensure that when using X you cannot try to sneak in Y to get a lot more damage than intended. In many MMOs, when you're *intended* to do damage X, you do damage X. Not X+1 or X-1, X.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Am I right in believing that Brutes are intended to be sturdier than Scrappers but do less damage, so that they are effectivley in between Tanks and Scrappers on a continuum?
Because if that's true, and if, as some assert, Brutes actually do more damage than Scrappers, shouldn't we expect some sort of Brutewide nerf to get them to where they are supposed to be? |
So when another MMO *intends* to make one class do higher damage and have lower survivability, and another class do less damage and have higher survivability, that is what they do. They cannot do anything else. Things like gear and other modifiers can change the situation slightly, perhaps somewhat, but the fundamental relationship remains intact, particularly with comparable expenditure on the characters.
City of Heroes is not like that. Our offense and defense are build up from non-exclusive powers that interact in much more complex ways. Every archetype has an extremely wide range of possible damage output and survivability. Furthermore, *how we play* can dramatically influence our offense. Use the right chain, and you could be doing 40% more damage than someone that uses a suboptimal chain. Have enough speed, and a low damage set can become a high damage one (Fire Blast, with the ridiculously long Flares animation, used to be sort of like this). When we target an archetype to have X offense and Y defense, actual characters in that archetype are going to have a wide range of performance centered approximately around X and Y, often far higher or lower than the targets. And that means City of Heroes archetypes overlap a lot.
This all gets to Fury. Brutes are balanced around Fury. The *presumption* is that the *average player* is going to bounce up and down with Fury, sometimes having high Fury and sometimes having low Fury. They are not presumed to have saturated Fury all the time. But what is the average amount of Fury possessed by the average player, when you count all the ramp ups and ramp downs, and what is the qualitative (not quantitative) penalty of having to ramp up and down, separate from average damage?
Brutes are balanced around these concerns. Unfortunately, that means players that can reach and then sustain high Fury will have more average damage than the archetype is intended to be balanced around, and won't suffer from as much ramp up time as intended on average. They will thus have higher damage than the target.
Does this mean Brutes deserve to be nerfed? Well, not necessarily. The game is balanced around the average player, not the forum readers. If the average player playing the average Brute averages slightly less damage than Scrappers, its probably all good. If the average Brute averages the same or higher damage, that's probably not intended, but if the qualitative penalty of ramping fury up and down is such that many people tend to like the stable damage of Scrappers better, that qualitative edge may be factored in to make the balance between the two "close enough" so long as the numerical advantage is not too high.
So: are Brutes balanced intended to do less damage? I think its more correct to say Brutes are balanced intended to make it harder to deal more damage than Scrappers, but the level of difficulty may be so low most experienced players fail to notice. That might suggest the devs aimed wrong, but that was the intent.
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Missed a bunch of posts here, but I'll try to catch up a bit.
I was making a mistake with the crits in Mids, so I reset damage to minimum. My calcs now assume 75% Fury and 6.75% crit chance (based on 70% minions) in every Scrapper attack other than Eviscerate, which has a 15% chance against everything. I tend to assume perma-Hasten as the baseline for recharge. Depending on your secondary and alpha-slotting, the recharge in any particular attack will vary. What' s important is that you have enough recharge to run your chain.
If I rank the attacks by DPA, each AT favors different attacks. For Scrappers, Focus > Eviscerate > Shockwave > Slash > Strike. For Brutes, Focus > Shockwave > Strike > Slash > Eviscerate. Shockwave's usefulness in any chain is debateable due to KB, but removing Eviscerate from the Scrapper chain hurts their numbers. Scrappers should aspire to run Follow Up > Focus > Eviscerate, which isn't difficult to do. That would be ~182dps with triple-stacked Follow Up.
With double-stacked Follow Up, Brutes are showing slightly better than Scrappers for me, so there is a case to be made for Brutes at lower levels of performance. Scrapper AOE remains better, with the faster-recharging Spin and crit-heavy Eviscerate.
(EDIT: When I fixed my Mids reporting, one of my prior paragraphs became incorrect)
I'm really confused reading this thread. Previously it was pretty clearly beat to death on the scrapper board that the best Claws/SR attack chain for a brute (with highly procc'd attacks, say 1-2 dmg procs in each) was
FU->Focus->Slash (with -RES in slash)
and that this was better than any chain that included Eviscerate
I run this chain on my Claws/SR, it requires super high recharge, and I only get Follow Up to stack 2x.
So I'm confused here seeing talk of 3x stacking of FU. And also that chains for Brutes are better containing other attacks?
My incarnated & dpre-incarnated times / dps / and the build I used are here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showpost.php?p=3861133&postcount=1983
So help me understand: is the conclusion of this thread that there is a BETTER attack chain for Brutes than the one I am using? And is the conclusion also that Scrapper claws outperforms Brute claws ('cause that's different than a lot of what I read in the other threads).
Quote:
Im not sure why you would use Eviserate in an attack chain, as its very long animation time pretty much kills its DPA.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
Missed a bunch of posts here, but I'll try to catch up a bit.
I was making a mistake with the crits in Mids, so I reset damage to minimum. My calcs now assume 75% Fury and 6.75% crit chance (based on 70% minions) in every Scrapper attack other than Eviscerate, which has a 15% chance against everything. I tend to assume perma-Hasten as the baseline for recharge. Depending on your secondary and alpha-slotting, the recharge in any particular attack will vary. What' s important is that you have enough recharge to run your chain. If I rank the attacks by DPA, each AT favors different attacks. For Scrappers, Focus > Eviscerate > Shockwave > Slash > Strike. For Brutes, Focus > Shockwave > Strike > Slash > Eviscerate. Shockwave's usefulness in any chain is debateable due to KB, but removing Eviscerate from the Scrapper chain hurts their numbers. Scrappers should aspire to run Follow Up > Focus > Eviscerate, which isn't difficult to do. That would be ~182dps with triple-stacked Follow Up. With double-stacked Follow Up, Brutes are showing slightly better than Scrappers for me, so there is a case to be made for Brutes at lower levels of performance. Scrapper AOE remains better, with the faster-recharging Spin and crit-heavy Eviscerate. (EDIT: When I fixed my Mids reporting, one of my prior paragraphs became incorrect) |
Lets look at the numbers this way:
At base, with 75% fury, and 10% crit
Brutes Eviserate does 227.4 damage in 2.508 seconds only amounting to 90.67DPA
Scrappers Eviserate does 143.2 damage in 2.508 seconds, only amounting to 57.10DPA
My previous post outlined the differences in attack chains for a single target, but you do bring up a good point, about spin and eviserate recharging faster on a scrapper, so the AoE may be higher.
Lets look at spin:
Brute Spin does 197.1 damage in 2.64 seconds, every 14 seconds.
With 95% damage, and 95% recharge enhancements, the brute does 272.1 damage every 7.17 seconds.
Add in double stacked followup, and the brute does 319.4 damage.
Scrapper Spin does 108.7 damage in 2.64 seconds, every 9.2 seconds.
With 95% damage, and 95% recharge enhancements, the scrapper does 212.3 damage, every 4.71 seconds.
Add in double stacked followup, and the scrapper does 293.8 damage.
So, on SOs, with double stacked followup, and brute does about 8% more damage then the scrapper, and the scrapper recharges about 35% faster.
So i can see where you'll look at those numbers and see that scrappers do better AoE. And depending on how many things your fighting, i'd be willing to agree with you, but only if the LTs and bosses out numbers the minions, as it would really only take 1 or 2 spins to clear all the minions for either AT, and then the brute would pull ahead single target wise (as per my previous posts)
RE: Granite Agent
Summary
- FU->Focus->Slash is the best ST damage chain for a brute.
- FU->Focus->Strike is second best and very close.
- FU->Eviserate->FU->Focus->Slash, or FU->Eviserate->FU->Focus->Strike is impractical, but would be third if it was achievable within practical limits.
----
For the ST damage chain FU->Focus->Slash with sufficient recharge will have about a 1.42 second triple FU out of 3.83 seconds, or 37% of the time, assuming no lag.
FU at the recharge cap is 2.4 + 0.92 (arcanatime) = 3.32 second cycle. If you could find a perfect highest damage mini-chain that took exactly 2.4 seconds, you could perma triple stack. However, you also have to consider that brutes suffer from damage bonus saturation, you really can't afford to use anything but completely optimal attacks, extra damage bonus or no.
Strike and Focus would fill that 2.4 second perfectly, but does not have the achilles -res, that is a damage multiplier. While this means you are not perma-triple, that loss of another 30% damage buff in an already damage buff saturated environment is a slightly smaller loss than losing a 1.10x multiplier. This may be different for a scrapper.
with low to moderate Fury
X * (3.21 + .30) = 3.51X
(3.21 + (.30*.37))X * 1.1 = 3.65X
with moderate to high Fury
X * (3.42 + .30) = 3.72X
(3.42 + (.30*.37))X * 1.1 = 3.88X
So, while both versions are very close, the FU->Slash->Focus, has a slight lead. That lead, however, is further widened if you use Lore or PC Pets. X in this case works, as the raw dps of the two chains is similar enough. However, the value inside of X also slightly favors the FU->Focus->Slash chain.
It's worth noting that at very low fury, say the first 5 to 8 seconds of the fight, the triple version would be better, but by the time you fight long enough to have it triple stacked, the math has already swung in favor of the chain with achilles in it.
As for Eviscerate, you'd have to be at or beyond the recharge cap to consider it in the ST chain. If and only if, you were beyond the recharge cap, then the multiplier of using a Gladiator -Res Proc in it may compensate for the loss of dps due to the lower dpa. Anything short of the recharge cap will either introduce gaps, or require rotating lower frequency use, and the multiplier under those circumstances is not large enough to overcome the lower DPA.
Quote:
Because you're ignoring the impact of enhancement values (95%) and crits (+15%, after enhancement and after follow up) on Eviscerate?|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Im not sure why you would use Eviserate in an attack chain, as its very long animation time pretty much kills its DPA.
|
Base Damage = 124.5
95% Enhancement = 118.275
3 Stacks Follow Up = 140.06
Pre-Crit subtotal of 382.835.
* 1.15 Critical Chance = 440.26
/ 2.508 Activation Time = 175.54 DPA/target
For an AOE attack chain, Follow Up > Spin > Eviscerate looks good.
Spin...
Base Damage = 98.85
95% Enhancement = 93.91
3 Stacks Follow Up = 111.21
Pre-Crit Subtotal = 303.97
* 1.065 Critical Chance = 323.73/target
/ 2.64 Activation Time = 122.62 DPA/target
Follow Up...
Base Damage = 50.05
95% Enhancement = 47.55
3 Stacks Follow Up = 56.31
Pre-Crit Subtotal = 153.91
* 1.065 Critical Chance = 163.91
/ 1.056 Activation Time = 155.22 DPA
Quote:
Pretty sure those numbers aren't right.. Lets look at the time required.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
Because you're ignoring the impact of enhancement values (95%) and crits (+15%, after enhancement and after follow up) on Eviscerate?
Base Damage = 124.5 95% Enhancement = 118.275 3 Stacks Follow Up = 140.06 Pre-Crit subtotal of 382.835. * 1.15 Critical Chance = 440.26 / 2.508 Activation Time = 175.54 DPA/target For an AOE attack chain, Follow Up > Spin > Eviscerate looks good. Spin... Base Damage = 98.85 95% Enhancement = 93.91 3 Stacks Follow Up = 111.21 Pre-Crit Subtotal = 303.97 * 1.065 Critical Chance = 323.73/target / 2.64 Activation Time = 122.62 DPA/target Follow Up... Base Damage = 50.05 95% Enhancement = 47.55 3 Stacks Follow Up = 56.31 Pre-Crit Subtotal = 153.91 * 1.065 Critical Chance = 163.91 / 1.056 Activation Time = 155.22 DPA |
Followup's +damage buff lasts for 10 seconds, after a .2 seconds delay. Your followup->spin->eviserate chain takes 6.072 seconds to animation. The very best you can manage is double stacked followup.
Now, mids will calculate 95% damage, double stacked followup and 10% crit on spin/followup and 15% crit on eviserate all by itself. Lets see what it'll tell us.
Followup -> 148.8 damage DPA = 140.9
Spin -> 293.8 damage DPA = 111.29
Eviserate -> 386.9 damage DPA = 154.67
How do people feel on the OP's question with respect to Street Justice?
Quote:
If I hear this one more time......|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Am I right in believing that Brutes are intended to be sturdier than Scrappers but do less damage, so that they are effectivley in between Tanks and Scrappers on a continuum?
Because if that's true, and if, as some assert, Brutes actually do more damage than Scrappers, shouldn't we expect some sort of Brutewide nerf to get them to where they are supposed to be? |
Brutes have ALREADY BEEN "fixed" to do less damage than Scrappers and more than Tankers. Brutes are already tougher than Scrappers and weaker than Tankers.
If Claws is an outlier that allows Brutes to come even to (or a teensy bit more than) Scrapper damage doesn't justify yet another Brute Nerf!
Quote:
The thing with claws, is that it was 'balanced' do more damage on brutes. It didn't get the reduced endurance cost, or lower recharge that scrappers got, it got a higher damage scale on its attack (when compared to scrappers) |
Originally Posted by JulioThom70
If I hear this one more time......
Brutes have ALREADY BEEN "fixed" to do less damage than Scrappers and more than Tankers. Brutes are already tougher than Scrappers and weaker than Tankers. If Claws is an outlier that allows Brutes to come even to (or a teensy bit more than) Scrapper damage doesn't justify yet another Brute Nerf! |
That higher damage scale, allows VERY HIGH END brutes to meet or exceed scrapper level damage, with identical builds. Its literally in the ballpark of 2% - 5%, and depends entirely on fury being higher then average, which is really only possible with liberal use of 'Frenzy'.
I'm still kinda new though I have a few high level characters but I have yet to find a successful melee combination. I've been trying tanks, brutes, and scrappers. I've still yet to find a good set but i'm leaning towards kinetic melee as the damage is seemingly very strong though the movements take a while before it actually attacks. But I can't determine what should go with it to make it actually work. Any idea's? I've been using a scrapper and the survivability is next to nothing on him when the crowd actually does land a hit but I have noticed that If I can get in my hits quick enough I can wipe out entire crowds with the necessary inspirations. However that does not keep me alive. The last I tried was a scrapper with KM/SR and I avoid most BUT not all. And when they do hit it's only a matter of time before I drop like a rock.
Quote:
Let me repost something from the A&P general forum: a damage enhanced crushing uppercut does 900 damage on a critical before considering damage buffs.|
Originally Posted by Ledneh_
How do people feel on the OP's question with respect to Street Justice?
|
900.
Think about it.
Claws gets animation locked fast.
Without aggro holding capabilities, stuff runs away.
Some forumites live in a world where optimal situations are commonplace, including and even when such situations are actually mathematically impossible.
Those are the three important facts to keep in mind when looking at Claws, in my opinion.