I was new to the game and my SGmates suggested I try doing human only first to get a feel for the AT. I did take Nova at first (which made the lower levels a breeze) but I eventually fleshed out the story for my PB and went human only with Lightform being the only alternate state of being she had available due to her host making a sacrifice during their career as superheroes. Plus she was never happy with looking all gross and stuff and did her absolute best to never, ever shift.
As for the changes and some of the gripes. I have to drop to human form on my warshade in order to get hasten to fire off. Oh and to max my resist. To massively heal up and rebuild end. Oh and to get my fluffies. And for my awesome gravity crushing power that drops a foe pretty quickly (for more fluffies) or at least holds them in place. Oh and to fire off one of my two mires. And yes, I do admit that the powers (such as the mire) encourage the shape shifting dance quite a bit with the WS and not as much with the PB.
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....did someone complain that warshades never have to drop to human form?
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Originally Posted by FallenValkyrja
As for the changes and some of the gripes. I have to drop to human form on my warshade in order to get hasten to fire off. Oh and to max my resist. To massively heal up and rebuild end. Oh and to get my fluffies. And for my awesome gravity crushing power that drops a foe pretty quickly (for more fluffies) or at least holds them in place. Oh and to fire off one of my two mires. And yes, I do admit that the powers (such as the mire) encourage the shape shifting dance quite a bit with the WS and not as much with the PB.
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The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Unless you can provide a quote stating this explicitly, I'm gonna have to disagree. Just a little. Discussion regarding the developers' intent when designing Kheldians crops up periodically, and - leaving aside for the moment that this is a different developer team with different goals and the ever-changing nature of MMO's - I can provide a quote:|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
The devs have said many times (especially castle) that it was always their intention that you take and use the forms.
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Quote:
| In the end, we want you to have to make sacrifices and tough choices when you build your Kheldian. Hopefully, this will result in many different viable Kheldian Builds. This might mean shape shifting specialists, Human form specialists, Nova/Humans, Dwarf/Humans, or maybe players who start out one way, and respect out as they advance in level. |
For context, Geko was talking about the slot crunch, and the possibility of adding more slots. The whole reason we didn't get more slots than other archetypes is because they wanted the slot crunch to lead to specialized builds - including human form only. This is also the reason we have duplicated powers between the forms and human: human form was always considered a viable option for building kheldians.
Castle's concern with dwarf being obviated by human-form mez protection wasn't that dwarf would cease becoming a requirement - it was that no one would ever take dwarf again, thus obviating not just one form, but an entire specialist build option.
If you read further down the article (and it is an interesting read; every kheld driver who doesn't remember those days should take the time and read into some of the development history of kheldians, if only to see just how bad we were at the start) you'll also see where Geko emphasizes that:
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| Kheldians are not supposed to replace Tankers and Blasters, or any other Archetype. They fulfill a unique role. A metamorphic one, if you will. That is, they have the ability, at your discretion or skill, to fulfill many roles within a team. So Kheldians can Blast, Tank, or Control... they can even Scrap or Defend a little. But they were never meant to be better than Tankers, Blasters, whatever. They are meant to be the best at, let's call it, adapting. They are ShapeShifters by nature. We want them to be versatile, and challenging, but not perfect or all-powerful. |
And again - that's why I was so taken aback by the current changes: they favor human form almost to the exclusion of the others. Kheldians were designed to be versatile, and that versatility was - at least originally - intended to come not only from individual builds, but from the variety of builds you could make. That versatility has been hurt by these changes.
But it is an MMO - and visions change in MMO's. I'll adjust, even if I'm not terribly happy with it.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Bah! It has been what? Six years since he posted that? I had to go back and re-read it myself. |
Originally Posted by Microcosm
That would be me misremembering a quote
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And TBH while it's a good read if you're interested in the original intent for Kheldian design, so much has changed in the game that it's really not what I would consider gospel.
Especially now for Peacebringers.
..But it is interesting. There's another interesting read on the last page of the kheldian forums - a thread started by Statesman about issues that players were concerned with back in the day. Any time I get frustrated with the state of Kheldians now, I go back and skim that thread to remind myself of what it was like then.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
The other thing about the original PB design is that it was balanced *before* Enhancement Diversification.
Once that came in, Kheldians were disproportionately weakened.
I think that the changes have been in the right and only true direction.
It might of been nice to have the option of being a glowball that you can choose at the tailor in the power customization part for those that characterized to it. Original is original Lightform, Customized is Human with Lightform aura.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Dude... when Kheldians first came on the scene, they received a damage DEBUFF when they were soloing AND Quantums did unresistable, special damage to them. That's in addition to all the stuff I can honestly argue for improving with Kheldians AFTER these changes in I21 and I11.|
Originally Posted by Starcloud
The other thing about the original PB design is that it was balanced *before* Enhancement Diversification.
Once that came in, Kheldians were disproportionately weakened. |
They weren't balanced when they came on the scene in the slightest, ED or no ED. I love Kheldians, but I will be honest about how they have been designed in the weirdest way possible (around their good points). Hopefully Arbiter Hawk keeps working on them and gets them to where they would need to be. I would love to be able to not argue for changes with them anymore, kind of like I don't have to for Fiery Aura anymore (even if Fiery Aura's lack of KB protection still sticks in my craw).
For my two cents on the new changes, I think Joe is on the right track as well... we're rather survivable, but I'm not sure that this makes up for our other shortcomings. I'd almost take less resistance if it meant I could do other stuff better, but I don't know that we have to go there. VEATs are ridiculously survivable and do good damage AND buff themselves and their team.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Don't forget it wasn't just a damage deficit, we were 30% resistance in the hole too!|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Dude... when Kheldians first came on the scene, they received a damage DEBUFF when they were soloing AND Quantums did unresistable, special damage to them. That's in addition to all the stuff I can honestly argue for improving with Kheldians AFTER these changes in I21 and I11.
They weren't balanced when they came on the scene in the slightest, ED or no ED. I love Kheldians, but I will be honest about how they have been designed in the weirdest way possible (around their good points). Hopefully Arbiter Hawk keeps working on them and gets them to where they would need to be. I would love to be able to not argue for changes with them anymore, kind of like I don't have to for Fiery Aura anymore (even if Fiery Aura's lack of KB protection still sticks in my craw). For my two cents on the new changes, I think Joe is on the right track as well... we're rather survivable, but I'm not sure that this makes up for our other shortcomings. I'd almost take less resistance if it meant I could do other stuff better, but I don't know that we have to go there. VEATs are ridiculously survivable and do good damage AND buff themselves and their team. |
Thats right, enemies did 30% more damage to us if we were alone back in the day. The toggle shields allowed us to break even.
I was also pretty surprised that the Devs decided to buff Human Form so much when it was already the most useful form, at higher levels anyway, but the new changes do benefit Dwarf and Nova especially when soloing or on a team that doesn't have the right ATs to give you lots of Resistance from the Inherent while also allowing them to benefit from the increased damage from Inner Light. When you consider that Dwarf shift can no longer be interrupted and you can now use the Flares positionally to reduce knockback it all adds up to a considerable buff to all the forms.
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That anyone ever thought this was a great idea and playerbase would approve of is just...mind boggling
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Originally Posted by Zenyth
Don't forget it wasn't just a damage deficit, we were 30% resistance in the hole too!
Thats right, enemies did 30% more damage to us if we were alone back in the day. The toggle shields allowed us to break even. |
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My mind has clearly tried to blank out those evil, evil days. I can only say the main reason I played my Peacebringer solo through that is that I did not know the game any better to realize most ATs didn't have to deal with so much. Still, I soloed Quantums and Voids solo back then... inspirations and striking first have always been your friend.|
Originally Posted by Zenyth
Don't forget it wasn't just a damage deficit, we were 30% resistance in the hole too!
Thats right, enemies did 30% more damage to us if we were alone back in the day. The toggle shields allowed us to break even. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Socorro
That anyone ever thought this was a great idea and playerbase would approve of is just...mind boggling
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When you look at how thing were set up under Cryptic under the start (and any MMO they begin), you can always marvel at the brilliance of some of their design... and also be absolutely stunned at how bad some of it was.
I might be misquoting her on this, but I think Arcanaville referred to that old design approach as "throwing something at the wall and seeing if it sticks." It really does seem that random.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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The playerbase didn't approve of it. Many of us were raging about that debuff (along with other things) and it didn't last long. The idea of any dev thinking PB performance was "ok" prior to the changes is more mind boggling to me. I'm just glad the devs are listening to the playerbase again.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
That anyone ever thought this was a great idea and playerbase would approve of is just...mind boggling
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@Dawun
Old School
Renegades
I'm going to point out, cause I like doing it, that the character creation screen Still says we take "more damage from most attacks".
Also, to go against what some others have said, I have been playing my Lightly IOd (cheaply frankenslotted) lvl 50 PB (Inner Light and Lightform are NOT perma) and also a new PB that I have levelled to the mid 20s using nothing better than IOs and I can report that both toons are Much more powerful than before. So I wouldn't say that only permalight builds are improved significantly here.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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The question isn't really whether the changes improved Peacebringers, but whether it improved them (and also Warshades) in the direction they needed to go, and enough. Peacebringers were far enough off the performance scale that they really did need a significant boost (and I would argue that what we got wasn't all what was needed). There are numerous posts on this subject, so I'll let those speak for themselves.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
I'm going to point out, cause I like doing it, that the character creation screen Still says we take "more damage from most attacks".
Also, to go against what some others have said, I have been playing my Lightly IOd (cheaply frankenslotted) lvl 50 PB (Inner Light and Lightform are NOT perma) and also a new PB that I have levelled to the mid 20s using nothing better than IOs and I can report that both toons are Much more powerful than before. So I wouldn't say that only permalight builds are improved significantly here. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I could see changing Solar Flare to knockdown and possibly making Pulsar 100% chance for mag 3. Other than that I don't really see what changes could be made that wouldn't be overpowering.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
The question isn't really whether the changes improved Peacebringers, but whether it improved them (and also Warshades) in the direction they needed to go, and enough. Peacebringers were far enough off the performance scale that they really did need a significant boost (and I would argue that what we got wasn't all what was needed). There are numerous posts on this subject, so I'll let those speak for themselves.
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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Hey if they want to "accidentally" overamp PB's for awhile, how many of us would complain after all the time of being considered "underpowered" ? |
Originally Posted by Wavicle
I could see changing Solar Flare to knockdown and possibly making Pulsar 100% chance for mag 3. Other than that I don't really see what changes could be made that wouldn't be overpowering.
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I really like the changes to the survivability of the PB that were made. Now all they need to do is somehow bump up the damage. Any ideas on how to bump the PB damage without making the AT Overpowered?
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
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The damage is only negligible when soloing, so maybe something like the defender treatment - treat their Cosmic Balance as if they are always teaming with a Scrapper, a 'Fender, and a 'Troller (or the other ATs that produce the same). Then, the first real AT of that type they team with has no further effect on Cosmic Balance, but two or more does.|
Originally Posted by Big_Soto
I really like the changes to the survivability of the PB that were made. Now all they need to do is somehow bump up the damage. Any ideas on how to bump the PB damage without making the AT Overpowered?
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Also, (*cues old song*), someday for the love of <insert preferred diety> may they decide to limit KB. I often do not use my best AoE, Solar Flare, on teams because the act of "Using KB correctly" (ie. getting on the edge of a spawn so I hit less that half of the foes I could have, but at least I'm not irritating my teammates too much) ... well it annoys me too much.
If PBs were the Kings of AoE (we do have a lot of AoEs truly, as Arbiter Hawk points out) and if we were able to land one AoE after another without scattering them away from our own followup powers, then I'd be totally happy with No Damage buff.
The damage problem is entirely the fault of photon seekers. Without pets, pb's easily do better damage than warshades. With pets, warshades outclass them by a very large margin. Fix photon seekers in some way to actually be worthwhile dps (perhaps summon one or two light versions of Dark Extraction, no bodies required but can't do more than two) and your damage problem is solved. Well, that and the option of kd instead of kb for some powers.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
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Khelds were designed as "the teaming AT", but the devs at the time seemed to be worried that once people got to 50 and made another character, they wouldn't want to join teams. There was at least some basis for that at the time, this was when fire controllers could summon a dozen or more imps, and many scrappers were pretty much indestructible by 50, let alone tanks. So they designed Khelds to make sure they would want to join teams. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
But, we were totally going to be the teaming AT, man! Isn't that like, awesome?
I might be misquoting her on this, but I think Arcanaville referred to that old design approach as "throwing something at the wall and seeing if it sticks." It really does seem that random. |
Unfortunately they didn't really contemplate whether *teams* would want *Khelds*, who are IMHO only recently considered roughly as desirable as other ATs in terms of invites. Its still a bit tough to get invites to a MO run, for example, because a Cyst in the wrong place (for example in an ambush that materializes on top of a team) can add significant risk of failure.
They learned this lesson with VEATs, and gave them powers even a selfish VEAT will take for themself AND which buff the team or debuff foes at the same time.
And Arcanaville has made a couple of posts commenting on how much the original CoH devs got flat out lucky with balance-wise, she had some insight on that from her direct communications with them over the years. Many of the most loved things about specific ATs and powersets and CoH game mechanics in general were either things the devs didn't intend, or actually intended to work the opposite of, but failed at due to lack of maths.
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I do think changing the Photon Seekers to something similar to Dark Extraction would help a great deal; however I would not like to see a clone of the power with a PB color change.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
The damage problem is entirely the fault of photon seekers. Without pets, pb's easily do better damage than warshades. With pets, warshades outclass them by a very large margin. Fix photon seekers in some way to actually be worthwhile dps (perhaps summon one or two light versions of Dark Extraction, no bodies required but can't do more than two) and your damage problem is solved. Well, that and the option of kd instead of kb for some powers.
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How about using the old Light Form animation and create only one pet and name it Protostar. This new pet will be your primary pet and will have its own range attacks and can be killed, healed and buffed. It will also summon Photon Seekers the same way Protector Bots from the mastermind set creates Seeker Drones. By doing it like this, I believe some players will still be happy to have their Photon Seeker and now they have a new pet to tag along during fights.
I would like to be able to create more than one Protostar at a time so it should have the same recharge time and duration as the Dark Extraction; however if someone thinks that more than one will be overpowered then give us just one pet and the ability to control it like the new Lore Pets. By doing this I believe being able to cast one Protostar at a time will be enough.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
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Dark Extraction is the only (non-Mastermind) pet power left in the game that still allows multiple summons, cause of the defeated enemy requirement. If PBs got a pet without that requirement I'd be dollars to donuts it'd be a single summon power.|
Originally Posted by Big_Soto
I do think changing the Photon Seekers to something similar to Dark Extraction would help a great deal; however I would not like to see a clone of the power with a PB color change.
How about using the old Light Form animation and create only one pet and name it Protostar. This new pet will be your primary pet and will have its own range attacks and can be killed, healed and buffed. It will also summon Photon Seekers the same way Protector Bots from the mastermind set creates Seeker Drones. By doing it like this, I believe some players will still be happy to have their Photon Seeker and now they have a new pet to tag along during fights. I would like to be able to create more than one Protostar at a time so it should have the same recharge time and duration as the Dark Extraction; however if someone thinks that more than one will be overpowered then give us just one pet and the ability to control it like the new Lore Pets. By doing this I believe being able to cast one Protostar at a time will be enough. |
It'd be equally as unlikely for that pet to be controllable. That's still a Mastermind thing, even if Incarnates break the rules.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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A single summon without the ability to control is a more reasonable suggestion.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
Dark Extraction is the only (non-Mastermind) pet power left in the game that still allows multiple summons, cause of the defeated enemy requirement. If PBs got a pet without that requirement I'd be dollars to donuts it'd be a single summon power.
It'd be equally as unlikely for that pet to be controllable. That's still a Mastermind thing, even if Incarnates break the rules. |
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
If they really want every - single - kheld to pick and slot the forms, there's certainly stronger ways.
Give human form around 3 attacks only, like a Mastermind, and no shields. Then people would look at 'formless' Khelds the same way they do petless Masterminds. (if this were the case I'd never touch a kheld again, but it's just a 'for instance'...)