I know it's weird to say but I believe the PB has become too powerful.
-I'm flying around with capped defenses (except psychic) and the ability to put out a very solid amount of damage. Nothing damages me. Well, it does like 1,3,5 dmg. It's just silly.
-Dwarf is essentially useless now. You get your status protections in exchange for a MASSIVE decrease in damage and function. I was getting rooted and immobilized in Nova form--so what, you still can't hurt me.
-Can't activate our key powers in other forms. I'm sure this is an old game issue not easily changed, but no matter what you want to do, Human form is your main form, because your main powers are in it and you have to turn them on and cycle back. You can't have them auto-fire from inactive trays or in different forms. You WILL be in human form at least partially whether you like it or not--unless you feel like giving up an absurd amount of resistances. This is probably the biggest annoyance for me, because I don't want to use human form and it's a hassle to click over consistently and cast 3-5 buffs, then click back and wait for the change.
-I miss the glowing ball. I mean we're shapeshifters. Yes, we got costumes. But lightform was pretty unique. If I could change the colors I'd be happy.
Right now, I feel too tough. I suppose I can go get my butt kicked by some Giant Monsters, but for regular stuff, if it's not packing psychic or something wacky like End Drain, I'm going to be able to kill it with little effort.
Quote:
Viable or not, it wasn't popular because the vast majority didn't consider it viable.|
Originally Posted by Aneko
I've been playing single-form Peacebringers for years. There's always someone (not you) saying that they were unplayable until now, and it just isn't true as a general statement. The latest changes will probably make a successful Peacebringer attainable by more people, but they've always been viable.
|
Now? On paper. In theory. It looks viable. In game? ... casually testing. If it isn't viable in-game for myself then it is being deleted and I'll wait for another round of buffs to happen before I try it again. (If such buffs happen again. We'll see.)
I want to like PB. They are pretty. But pretty doesn't mean fun, and having fun with something is the only workable definition of viability in a video game. Its' been entertaining so far; part of that is expectations of its' improvement as I level it higher and invest more into it. If I hit 50 and an acceptable (to me) level of investment and it isn't fun to play at that point ...
Poof goes the PB.
Im re-rolling a deleted lvl 38 WS and dusting off a lvl 42 PB.
Great changes but I think we need more tweaks.
I glad they changed Light form, I hated the Lighting ball with passion, and found it weird, but I agree they should do it optional.
Since the AoE blasts of human form PB sucks and knock things back, I was wondering if Spring attack is worth it to add some AoE epic feeling.
Anyone tried that with Khelds?
Quote:
I rebuilt my old PB a few days ago and included Spring Attack, and I like it. It's not incredible, but it's a very solid power and if you're building enough recharge to perma Light Form/Hasten then it's up fairly often. I enjoy having the option to initiate a fight with either Inner Light -> Nova -> Scatter -> Detonation or Inner Light -> Spring Attack -> Seekers -> Solar Flare. The variety of choice makes me feel like I'm playing a Kheldian instead of something else.
|
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
I was wondering if Spring attack is worth it to add some AoE epic feeling.
Anyone tried that with Khelds? |
Quote:
A Smack to the Face because they kept the floating energy patterns of the previous lightform...?|
Originally Posted by GenkaiFist
Frankly I'd be more positive about the change if they didn't just take the same FX and put it behind your toon. It's like a smack to the face to the people who prefer the old look and if you didn't like the old look well it's still there just your guy is ontop of it now :/
|
Okaaaaaay...
Quote:
That statement needs a bit of a qualifier. Too tough? Sure. Too powerful? Hardly.|
Originally Posted by DukeRustfield
I know it's weird to say but I believe the PB has become too powerful.
|
Quote:
| -I'm flying around with capped defenses (except psychic) and the ability to put out a very solid amount of damage. Nothing damages me. Well, it does like 1,3,5 dmg. It's just silly. |
Quote:
| -Dwarf is essentially useless now. You get your status protections in exchange for a MASSIVE decrease in damage and function. I was getting rooted and immobilized in Nova form--so what, you still can't hurt me. |
Quote:
| -Can't activate our key powers in other forms. I'm sure this is an old game issue not easily changed, but no matter what you want to do, Human form is your main form, because your main powers are in it and you have to turn them on and cycle back. You can't have them auto-fire from inactive trays or in different forms. You WILL be in human form at least partially whether you like it or not--unless you feel like giving up an absurd amount of resistances. This is probably the biggest annoyance for me, because I don't want to use human form and it's a hassle to click over consistently and cast 3-5 buffs, then click back and wait for the change. |
Quote:
| -I miss the glowing ball. I mean we're shapeshifters. Yes, we got costumes. But lightform was pretty unique. If I could change the colors I'd be happy. |
So, yeah. Soon (tm), for whatever it's worth...
Quote:
| Right now, I feel too tough. I suppose I can go get my butt kicked by some Giant Monsters, but for regular stuff, if it's not packing psychic or something wacky like End Drain, I'm going to be able to kill it with little effort. |
The other half is that they were balanced around IO's while the rest of the game is balanced around SO's. Virtually any other archetype can excell on SO's alone. Some better than others, but for a peacebringer to even compete it has to have an IO build, and an expensive one at that. It's no coincidence that every single person singing the praises of these changes is extolling the virtues of perma light form and perma inner light, but when free players don't have access to the invention system, I'm betting there will be complaints by those who've paid 1200 points to unlock an archetype that they can't use effectively.
Not that I'm complaining. My lv 50+++ peacebringer is lovin' life with perma light form and inner light. I see many more hours of play in his future. My lv 26 SO peacebringer isn't feeling the love, and likely won't, even after he gets light form, since I don't have the funds or the desire to IO two peacebringers.
Eh, it is what it is. A small minority of VIP players who can afford high recharge IO builds and are willing to spend that influence on a peacebringer will have a very, very good time being uber, and I'm absolutely fine with that. After all, I'm one of those players.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
Well said - my heavily IOd PB is lovin' it. My next comments really only apply to Heavily IOd PBs...|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
This, in a nutshell, is one-half of my heartburn with the changes. I like what they do for my perma light form-perma inner light 50+++ peacebringer, but he was already tough as hell. He didn't need more survivability, and the changes made him a little better at what he was already good at.
The other half is that they were balanced around IO's while the rest of the game is balanced around SO's. Virtually any other archetype can excell on SO's alone. Some better than others, but for a peacebringer to even compete it has to have an IO build, and an expensive one at that. It's no coincidence that every single person singing the praises of these changes is extolling the virtues of perma light form and perma inner light, but when free players don't have access to the invention system, I'm betting there will be complaints by those who've paid 1200 points to unlock an archetype that they can't use effectively. Not that I'm complaining. My lv 50+++ peacebringer is lovin' life with perma light form and inner light. I see many more hours of play in his future. My lv 26 SO peacebringer isn't feeling the love, and likely won't, even after he gets light form, since I don't have the funds or the desire to IO two peacebringers. Eh, it is what it is. A small minority of VIP players who can afford high recharge IO builds and are willing to spend that influence on a peacebringer will have a very, very good time being uber, and I'm absolutely fine with that. After all, I'm one of those players. |
I differ with you a bit in that the changes only effect a PB's toughness. Yes it does that, and improves it. My PB was tough, but never resist-capped Tough all the time.
But these changes also indirectly help my PB's damage significantly, in the form of Recharge. With Perma Lightform, I gave up my shields completely (well, kept shining shield single slotted). That's 2 full powers and 11 extra slots I can put somewhere else. That's 2 extra mules for LotGs and enough extra slots that I can use high recharge IOs in powers that I normally wouldn't (such as glinting eye). I probably get an extra 30% recharge just from having these spare slots.
So, I have enough recharge that Inner Light is perma and overlaps, meaning I have +100% extra damage (+130% during the overlap) a significant amount of time. Also, since my recharge is plenty high, I can get Muscular instead of Spiritual for some extra Kick.
When soloing, it finally feels like I'm dishing out serious hurt on enemies. I've never been able to solo my PB at +8 settings, even with lots of Purples, but last night I did the Morality Mish "Rescue the Bane Soldier", giant map chock full Arachnos, at +8 w/bosses. It wasn't a cakewalk, but it was doable; a feat in the past that was only reserved for my Brute, Scrapper, and Mastermind.
I see your point with SO builds. PBs that cannot get perma lightform will have to still invest in the Shields and/or Forms for protection. I guess it just doesn't bug me that much. I haven't started a New PB with these changes, but it still seems to me they will have it significantly better than they did before. Your better now, but to be Uber Awesome you have to IO out.
Quote:
Actually, you're quite right. I'm not giving enough credit to the efficacy of a perma inner light, and should have said as much. But there again, it's only with perma inner light that peacebringers will see any significant power increase.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
Well said - my heavily IOd PB is lovin' it. My next comments really only apply to Heavily IOd PBs...
I differ with you a bit in that the changes only effect a PB's toughness. Yes it does that, and improves it. My PB was tough, but never resist-capped Tough all the time. But these changes also indirectly help my PB's damage significantly, in the form of Recharge. With Perma Lightform, I gave up my shields completely (well, kept shining shield single slotted). That's 2 full powers and 11 extra slots I can put somewhere else. That's 2 extra mules for LotGs and enough extra slots that I can use high recharge IOs in powers that I normally wouldn't (such as glinting eye). I probably get an extra 30% recharge just from having these spare slots. So, I have enough recharge that Inner Light is perma and overlaps, meaning I have +100% extra damage (+130% during the overlap) a significant amount of time. Also, since my recharge is plenty high, I can get Muscular instead of Spiritual for some extra Kick. When soloing, it finally feels like I'm dishing out serious hurt on enemies. I've never been able to solo my PB at +8 settings, even with lots of Purples, but last night I did the Morality Mish "Rescue the Bane Soldier", giant map chock full Arachnos, at +8 w/bosses. It wasn't a cakewalk, but it was doable; a feat in the past that was only reserved for my Brute, Scrapper, and Mastermind. I see your point with SO builds. PBs that cannot get perma lightform will have to still invest in the Shields and/or Forms for protection. I guess it just doesn't bug me that much. I haven't started a New PB with these changes, but it still seems to me they will have it significantly better than they did before. Your better now, but to be Uber Awesome you have to IO out. |
And SO peacebringers that have to invest in the forms and the shields will still be almost as lackluster as they were before. For SO builds, the light form change took away as much as it added. Perma light form peacebringers can take as long as they want to kill an eb, but those on SO's will have exactly as long as Light Form lasts to do so, otherwise they have to heal and retreat (because dwarf form just isn't an option, and they'll have no mez protection from the shields)
Inner light will still help some, but the problem isn't that SO peacebringers didn't get buffed - it's that IO'd peacebringers got buffed exponentially in contrast.
Had the changes been balanced around SO's, they likely would have been very different, and I'm not buying the argument that IO'd builds would have abused SO-balanced changes, because every other arechetype in the game can use IO's to break the rules.
Apparently the same shall not be said for peacebringers.
EDIT - not that I want to break the game, or anything. As I said, I'm very happy with my IO'd peacebringer right now. BUT I wouldn't be a very good self-appointed advocate (and who asked me to be an advocate, anyway? what the hell am I thinking?) for peacebringers if I ignored those premium players who will suddenly have to buy access to the invention system if they want their newly-purchased peacebringers to perform as well as....
...well, pretty much everyone else.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Perma inner light and lightform are both human powers--made possible with Hasten, another human power. Humanform IS a buffbot. It might also do really well as a single target or multi-target or whatever-target, but regardless, you HAVE to use it, and use it often. I don't want to use it. I was a Nova/Dwarf who popped into human when hurt (often via a panicked quantum flight) to heal and buff, then back to my real forms to fight or tank. That's been turned on its head and I can't see a whole lot of reason to use Nova or Dwarf.
Yes, you can find reasons to use Nova and Dwarf, if you squint and go out of your way, but for a shapeshifter, there's really not a ton of reason to shift shapes. You're going to have to be a human anyway, and have to be kicking off those buffs regularly, you save yourself a lot of grief, hassle, downtime, etc just staying human and you don't give up a whole lot to do it.
Quote:
I could just as easily say that You also have a respectable blast in Gleaming Blast, the first and second most heavy-hitting melee attacks in your arsenal - all three human powers, and an inner light damage buff that gives the lion's share of its maximum buffage to human form. Yes, you can buff up your forms with light form, inner light and (although I take a dim view of using pool powers to define a form's role) hasten, and maybe you might get some control out of pulsar and the knockback in solar flare (snicker- just had to throw that in) but just as much of your human form is dedicated to single target damage. The notion that human form is nothing more than a buff-bot was erroneous even before these changes, and I did the math to prove it.|
Originally Posted by DukeRustfield
Perma inner light and lightform are both human powers--made possible with Hasten, another human power. Humanform IS a buffbot.
|
And I'm not saying human form isn't a buff bot. I'm just saying that it isn't - and never was - its only role.
Quote:
| I don't want to use it. I was a Nova/Dwarf who popped into human when hurt (often via a panicked quantum flight) to heal and buff, then back to my real forms to fight or tank. That's been turned on its head and I can't see a whole lot of reason to use Nova or Dwarf. |
Quote:
| Yes, you can find reasons to use Nova and Dwarf, if you squint and go out of your way, but for a shapeshifter, there's really not a ton of reason to shift shapes. You're going to have to be a human anyway, and have to be kicking off those buffs regularly, you save yourself a lot of grief, hassle, downtime, etc just staying human and you don't give up a whole lot to do it. |
But you're preaching to the choir when you tell me the forms are suffering under the current changes.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
As a dedicated Human Only, I empathize heavily. The changes really make Human Only quite strong, which I love, but I do hope they throw a bone the Forms way at some point...provided it doesn't take any away from what they gave Human |
Originally Posted by DukeRustfield
Yes, you can find reasons to use Nova and Dwarf, if you squint and go out of your way, but for a shapeshifter, there's really not a ton of reason to shift shapes. You're going to have to be a human anyway, and have to be kicking off those buffs regularly, you save yourself a lot of grief, hassle, downtime, etc just staying human and you don't give up a whole lot to do it.
|
Quote:
*Stamps Joe's forehead*|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
EDIT - not that I want to break the game, or anything. As I said, I'm very happy with my IO'd peacebringer right now. BUT I wouldn't be a very good self-appointed advocate (and who asked me to be an advocate, anyway? what the hell am I thinking?) for peacebringers if I ignored those premium players who will suddenly have to buy access to the invention system if they want their newly-purchased peacebringers to perform as well as....
|
I hereby appoint you pb advocate of at least one other player.
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This is a very mixed bag for me as well.
I'm happy that Human Form PB's got many of the perks they were looking for,
but the downside that saddens me is that Dwarf is essentially obsolete.
LF covers the resists, you can take the slots you'd normally put in Dwarf and
put them into Human Form, for better dps and utility.
In short, there's little to no reason to ever take Dwarf now.
Nova still has some utility as a hover blaster, but again, you could easily skip
it and put those slots in a maxxed Human Only build with minimal loss or regret.
For me, the *point* of the AT was always the forms... That was what uniquely
distinguished khelds from a standard Blaster, Scrapper, Tank....
While Human Only was still viable then, the new changes seem to make it the
definitive approach now, relegating forms to concept (or old-school) builds.
It's good to see the devs finally looking at PBs, but I can't say I'm all that
keen on the thematic direction they seem to have taken with the AT... YMMV
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
Meaning I liked the lightball form and it's still there but just out of my reach. Like if they gave you an awesome t-shirt but put it in a glass box. You can still see it but you're not allowed to wear it.
|
Originally Posted by Socorro
A Smack to the Face because they kept the floating energy patterns of the previous lightform...?
Okaaaaaay... |
Oh, it must be dreamy to have a costumed nemesis. Chasing you, wringing his gloved hand in concern for your every move. - Dr. Orpheus
Quote:
I think the first time I saw a Dwarf, in Perez Park (!) or whatever, it was like, WHOAH. Same thing with squids. And the panicked cries of Quantum! I wanted to make one ASAP. I played a bunch of other games but I always loved being able to tank, sorta, then blast, sorta, and laugh in PvP. |
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
For me, the *point* of the AT was always the forms... That was what uniquely
distinguished khelds from a standard Blaster, Scrapper, Tank.... |
Yeah, I PvP'd with my PB. This was back when teleport other was GOD and they would pull you into geometry + caltrops + mines + whatever. As soon as I heard that rumbling, I'd hit quantum flight, do some emotes and laugh as they all stood around shaking their fists in fury. Yeah, I never killed anything but still. The times I got close to death, I'd just hop into dwarf and if it got really bad, teleport around.
Quote:
One of my pre-I21 single-forms plays mostly as a hover-blaster, and with capped defenses.
|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Nova still has some utility as a hover blaster, but again, you could easily skip it and put those slots in a maxxed Human Only build with minimal loss or regret.
|
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Quote:
PBs (pre-I13) were generally respectable in PVP. I'd held off mobs of villains in Dwarf, and had a longstanding rivalry with a certain Stalker over on Pinnacle. Some of my favourite moments in PVP were on that character - and also some of the more frustrating, going toe to toe with a brute and neither one of us being able to kill... me, mostly because of having only a few attacks and not enough recharge (this is before IOs existed.)
|
Originally Posted by DukeRustfield
Yeah, I PvP'd with my PB. This was back when teleport other was GOD and they would pull you into geometry + caltrops + mines + whatever. As soon as I heard that rumbling, I'd hit quantum flight, do some emotes and laugh as they all stood around shaking their fists in fury. Yeah, I never killed anything but still. The times I got close to death, I'd just hop into dwarf and if it got really bad, teleport around.
|
My perm lightform Kheld triformer does quite well, just have to monitor the crash health/stamina drop and adjust accordingly. The other night he was in a run for the Lamba badge that required obtaining ALL the temps and using none (badge name eludes me). We won it.
My PB was going toe to toe with Marauder during the fight and doing quite well. I was dropped 5 times due to a combination of not quite getting out of range of his nova fist in time and before I could hit a heal power the adds blasted me. So after the 5th time I was dropped I got to a safe spot, let hasten and lightform reactivate then decided to hit the tray button I setup for all my khelds that transforms them to dwarf mode as they speak the magic words: "Gone! Gone the form of man, arise the Kheldian; KHELDIGRAN!" At that point Marauder wasn't really able to get me and I was easily going toe to toe with him to the end.
Quote:
The Shapeshifting is unique, but that they duplicated almost every power the Squid and Dwarf can do into the Human Arsenal as well is, to me, a strong indicator that All Human was always supposed to an option.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
...For me, the *point* of the AT was always the forms... That was what uniquely distinguished khelds from a standard Blaster, Scrapper, Tank....
|
Personally, I think they messed the shapeshifting mechanics up. They *should* have kept basically one suite of powers (essentially, everything that the Human has) and the Forms should have become, beyond the new shape and animations, thematic Modifiers to those powers. Each form should have had access to all the powers the Human had slotted.
Shifting to Dwarf would have weakened the attack's damage (greatly weakening the Ranged Attacks) the Hitpoints and Resistance goes way up. Essentially you become a Tank with as many powers as a normal tank has.
Shifting to Nova would have lessened the Hitpoints and weakened the resistances, but increasing the Attack's damage (greatly increasing the Ranged Attacks); Blaster with a full array of powers.
All this talk of slot-crunching, making one form strong at the expense of weakening the others, would never have come into play.
That's how it should have been done; never gonna happen now. This isn't breaking the cottage rule - it's blowing the cottage up haha
Quote:
The devs have said many times (especially castle) that it was always their intention that you take and use the forms. This is why castle repeatedly refused to give mez protection to human form. Perhaps that closed-mindedness is changing now, but they originally did not intend for people to go human only.
|
Originally Posted by Socorro
The Shapeshifting is unique, but that they duplicated almost every power the Squid and Dwarf can do into the Human Arsenal as well is, to me, a strong indicator that All Human was always supposed to an option
|
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Quote:
The reason I've been playing single-form for years is that people said it was crazy to even try.
|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
The devs have said many times (especially castle) that it was always their intention that you take and use the forms. This is why castle repeatedly refused to give mez protection to human form. Perhaps that closed-mindedness is changing now, but they originally did not intend for people to go human only.
|
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Quote:
I've always approached pb's from at least human-centric, if not human only.
|
Originally Posted by Aneko
The reason I've been playing single-form for years is that people said it was crazy to even try.
|
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A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
I stuck with the tri-form. Mainly for concept though, I am giving up a tad on functionality, but I enjoy the character much more with the forms. That being said I am working on an all human warshade (currently lv 34) which is, so far, keeping my interest. Of course, that is what respecs are for.
Quote:
Same here.. I liked tri form for the first year of having my kheldian and making it to 50.. after realizing how annoying retoggling is and that i mainly use the human form powers.. i made a human form for pvp..|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
I've always approached pb's from at least human-centric, if not human only.
|
When i came back after the i13 crash..a year ago i deleated my human pb and respeced and moved my triform to freedom and never looked back..
I dont think ill take the forms ever again unless the toggles are suppressed and not dropped.. too much work to put them back on in a pvp enviroment.. and not enough reward...
Freedom:
Iron-Blade 50kat/invul Iron Ascension 50trifpb Cinder Reborn 50fire/kin Zaha'doom 50triws Cindered Stones 50fire/ston ColdFusion 35 ice/rad Iron Ash 50 Fir/WP
Iron Wind km/regen Iron Static elec/reg Psy Entity 50 psy/dev Iron-Assassin 50 nin/nin
These changes have me pumped to revive him as a Human Form only PB.
I never did it before because I thought the Human attacks were too weak. With Inner Light and Perma Light Form, Human PBs are very viable.
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.