By
Arbegla,
Posted on: 2011-09-08 22:56 in The Market and Inventions
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
OP overuses the word draconian. Rest of post is hyperbole.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
Ok. Fairly condescending, but I get your point. I think you could have probably made it without the insult though.
I feel it's only fair to point out, however, that that in no way invalidates my post. It does say something about yours, however. |
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Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
No insult intended, and it looks like you could teach most of us on how to be condensending. I just think you are pointing out "problems" than can be solved by putting in a modicrum of effort.
This game is far from flawless, but the early-level crafting system is, IMO, way down the list of problems. |
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Originally Posted by quickfire
First impressions are lasting ones, and there is a reason why many folks outside the forum list crafting as one of the reasons to avoid this title or quit the game before they reach level 30.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
Remember...this is from a new player perspective.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
Remember, I say this from the perspective of a new player.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
It comes down to this. Last time I left, and if that chart is any indication, it looks like quite a few folks left at around the same time I did. I didn't post my concerns back then, I just did what most folks do when they don't like a game I expect...I voted with my feet.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
I still stick to the contention that slots instead of items would be one way to improve it, even if it is minor as you contend.
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quickfire, a thought:
There is, as you say, no requirement that you post evidence.
There is also no requirement that anyone believe what you say.
We all have more fun, though, if we post support for our views, and if we try to evaluate each others' claims as best we can given that support. 
FWIW... I would say that some aspects of the crafting system are daunting even to me. I'm autistic, and I habitually min-max in video games, and the nested interactions of the invention system ("if I take this set, that breaks rule of 5 for this recharge bonus so I should consider replacing that set, but then I lose part of my S/L defense, but I gain E defense, so maybe...") are Too Hard for me to do a good job. Yes, I can use Mids, but it can't really do a good job of "I would like to replace this set with that set, what would the implications be?"
That said... While crafting may not be NEEDED at low levels, if you have a little time to put in and you're soloing (so you'll be there long enough to care), it can make a HUGE difference. Grab yourself a Kismet +accuracy and a Karma or Steadfast -KB (or maybe the set bonus -KB from one of the knockback sets), on a level 8-10 character with no inherent -KB, and let us know whether it makes a difference.
And to some extent, I think, that's the point. The entire concept of crafting in this game is that it is to be optional. At all levels, really. The game was built with the assumption that you would have SOs at level 50, and characters are supposed to, with just SOs, be amazing enough to be able to take on the original 50-level content.
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Originally Posted by seebs
Yes, I can use Mids, but it can't really do a good job of "I would like to replace this set with that set, what would the implications be?"
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For what it's worth, I have friends who have been playing CoH just as long as I have and who are so confused by the invention system.
However, I don't attribute that to how the system is setup. They just never really took the time to explore it or learn about it.
And for the way they play the game, they really don't care to. And that's fine.
Personally, I don't really see a problem with how the system is setup. Everything is categorized and broken down.
I think the salvage tiers may need a little work between 25/30 and 40/45 but other than that I really don't see a problem.
There are plenty of guides on the forums to help people who have questions.
Like anything in the game (or life really) if you really want to learn something, you invest the time to do it. If you're not willing to invest the time then that's your call.
/2inf
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Hm, really? I use it to do things like that all the time. I just open two copies of my character (one old, and one new) and compare their stats while changing the new one. Now, admittedly, that's not the tool doing the comparisons, it's me working around the tool not doing them for me. But I haven't really found that work-around to be a problem to do.
Sorry for the thread jack. |
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Originally Posted by seebs
I have been unable to find a way to do stuff like "move this complete Cloud Senses to that power" remotely quickly, and I am ADHD enough that I can't remember what I'm trying to do when I have to do all the steps individually.
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Draconian?
Hmmm, let's see... I come from one of the earliest MMOGs, the one with the elf mascot, where I had a high level shaman crafter who was very good at alchemy, baking, sewing... and I had a gnome to practice tinkering, and I'd played with blacksmithing too... and if anyone remembers that game, you didn't have recipes to tell you what to combine, you had to experiment or find out from someone else (search the web), ingredients were often very hard to come by and/or very expensive, and you were very likely to fail and lose all of your stuff... and if you DID succeed, you had a very small (probably less than 10%, maybe less than 5%) chance of increasing your skill.
And then later I moved on to another fantasy game where you could buy recipes and components and craft very easily, and the only problem was that at higher levels the process to craft took longer and longer.. 10 minutes.... 20 minutes... 30 minutes. For. A. Single. Item.
So... yeah. I think I've seen Draconian. 
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
Wait, where is this from? WHAT people list crafting as a reason to avoid this title or the reason they quit? Where is this from?
Wow, you're really beating that 'new player' drum pretty hard. And yet, in another thread, you said: Okay, wait, so are you a new player or a returning player? And "Last time I left"? You've left more than once? |
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Originally Posted by seebs
quickfire, a thought:
There is, as you say, no requirement that you post evidence. There is also no requirement that anyone believe what you say. We all have more fun, though, if we post support for our views, and if we try to evaluate each others' claims as best we can given that support. FWIW... I would say that some aspects of the crafting system are daunting even to me. I'm autistic, and I habitually min-max in video games, and the nested interactions of the invention system ("if I take this set, that breaks rule of 5 for this recharge bonus so I should consider replacing that set, but then I lose part of my S/L defense, but I gain E defense, so maybe...") are Too Hard for me to do a good job. Yes, I can use Mids, but it can't really do a good job of "I would like to replace this set with that set, what would the implications be?" That said... While crafting may not be NEEDED at low levels, if you have a little time to put in and you're soloing (so you'll be there long enough to care), it can make a HUGE difference. Grab yourself a Kismet +accuracy and a Karma or Steadfast -KB (or maybe the set bonus -KB from one of the knockback sets), on a level 8-10 character with no inherent -KB, and let us know whether it makes a difference. And to some extent, I think, that's the point. The entire concept of crafting in this game is that it is to be optional. At all levels, really. The game was built with the assumption that you would have SOs at level 50, and characters are supposed to, with just SOs, be amazing enough to be able to take on the original 50-level content. |
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Originally Posted by quickfire
So all I can do is post my views for the devs to reject or consider.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
The community here is far too predatory to engage in a logical discussion.
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
My experience with the community is that, by and large, it's a very helpful place (particularly in the market forum, where folks routinely give detailed information on how to get stupid-rich), but that it doesn't react well to (a) people who make blanket statements about "the community" that paint us in a negative light or (b) people who suggest overhauling systems which, while not perfect, do not represent the best possible use of developer time or resources in the present game environment.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
I certainly understand and respect your point, but all it invites is forum PVP. The community here is far too predatory to engage in a logical discussion.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
I certainly understand and respect your point, but all it invites is forum PVP. The community here is far too predatory to engage in a logical discussion.
So all I can do is post my views for the devs to reject or consider. The forum members judgment of my posts couldn't possibly be any less important to me than it is at the moment. |
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
If you post in a player forum, you should expect players to respond to you. Posting on any of the forums is not an especially functional way to get the devs to pay attention to your ideas, but that's likely particularly true in this forum. If you both want the devs to see something, and you aren't interested in players feedback, a PM to some redname is probably the way to go.
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Originally Posted by Selina_H
Then you need to PM the devs. If you really don't care what any players think, why are you bothering to post?
This, exactly. |
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm not sure what other forums you've been on, but if you think this is bad, I'm not sure you should visit any others.
Now, pointing out that there are worse forums isn't a shining endorsement. However, you set yourself up on the wrong leg (let alone foot) when you were asked, without any noticeable negativity, for evidence of something you pretty obviously claimed was a broad-based dislike of this game. Your very first response was non-helpful in the extreme, and painted you as someone who was not interested in discourse. If you post in a player forum, you should expect players to respond to you. Posting on any of the forums is not an especially functional way to get the devs to pay attention to your ideas, but that's likely particularly true in this forum. If you both want the devs to see something, and you aren't interested in players feedback, a PM to some redname is probably the way to go. Barring that, the Suggestions forum is more likely to be looked at than this one. Barring that, at least put "Suggestion to the devs" or something in your thread title. I will say that while regulars here definitely like to poke holes in purported problems that people post about regarding the market, IOs, etc., I'm frankly not sure we've got anything on the regulars in the suggestions forum. Not if you make claims you can't or won't back up. |
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Originally Posted by quickfire
Well, that's certainly not a resounding argument to get me to expound on my opinion.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
The great thing about a game forum is a person can post with the intent of notifying the devs of their opinion without any concern for other player opinions on the matter...not that players will not waste calories attempting to argue the issue. It's the nature of the beast, so to speak.
And it's reasonably entertaining to view the diatribe. |
| In other words I don't NEED to do anything other than what I have already done. |
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
We have to make a compelling case for you to present actual arguments before you will back up your statements with facts?
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Originally Posted by quickfire
Yes.
Again, no one dictates what or how I respond. I owe nothing to any of you. Nor do any of you need to agree or owe me anything. Nor does my opinion require qualification to post it...nor do I seek approval. Folks certainly have a right to deride me all they wish. I may respond with diatribe when served it (only fair IMO) but that does not mean I demand folks to stop. I'd be a hypocrite if I stated, beyond obvious forum rule violations that folks didn't have a right to tear my opinion to bits. |
I really, really dislike IOing out a toon. The crafting, running around etc is just not fun. I think it was set up as a time sink once upon a time but now there is so much in the game we don't need to waste time.
OP made some good points about all the resources being spread out and just a pain in the butt. You need the IOs to super out your toon and is a, somewhat, unavoidable process.
I don't think it needs an overhaul. Maybe some fine tuning.