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You are making a huge assumption here. And not on the time investment part.
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Originally Posted by Smooth_Operator
Anyone who collects badges knows that IT TAKES TIME and most of that time it is not specially fun.
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There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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I have more than double that amount on multiple characters. I'm not insane; I just have a different definition of fun. I love the challenge of collecting badges on new characters. It's part of the leveling process, part of what makes a character whole and complete. |
Originally Posted by Smooth_Operator
I like making new characters but I really really hate the idea that I would need to get all those badges a second time. Anyone who collects badges knows that IT TAKES TIME and most of that time it is not specially fun. The amount of badges in the game is huge and in no sane person would collect them all to two or more characters. (I dare you to stay quiet insane people. I know you are there)
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I'm baffled by the whole "it takes time" thing. Yes, and so what? This is something you do for leisure, yes? Your leisure is taking too much time?
@Arwen Darkblade
Proud Member of Hammer of the Gods and Sanguine Syndicate
Arc ID #86194 "Cry Havoc"
Arc ID #103934 "Dr. Thomas' First Day"
[URL="http://tobyfife.blogspot.com/"]Hero Girl[/URL] - my geek culture blog
On one hand, I wish badges were really, you know, badges, and showed what your character did.
On the other hand, it's fairly obvious the system has failed from the start with so-called badge hunters exploiting every loophole and creating third party tools and cheat sheets.
It'd certainly be nice to not have to grind these passive accolades each and everytime on every new character.
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Well as one of those "insane" multi-character badgers I'd just like to say that even though I understand your desire to make badges be more account/player oriented in this game I have to pretty much stand completely against the idea.|
Originally Posted by Smooth_Operator
I like making new characters but I really really hate the idea that I would need to get all those badges a second time. Anyone who collects badges knows that IT TAKES TIME and most of that time it is not specially fun. The amount of badges in the game is huge and in no sane person would collect them all to two or more characters. (I dare you to stay quiet insane people. I know you are there)
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I happen to like the fact that badges are mostly character-oriented and actually unhappily tolerate the few account-based badges we do have already. The example I always use for this is the anniversary badges: Why on earth would Captain Awesome, a character who lives in Paragon City, even own a badge that commemorates the anniversary of a real world MMO game? Why should anything in our real life actually apply to a character in a fictional game world? That kind of badge should not be related to Captain Awesome at all. At best those ought to be special "player badges" that aren't connected directly to any character. Likewise the idea that the accompishments of one character should "rub off" onto another is equally silly. Should I have billions of dollars today because Bill Gates earned billions of dollars via Microsoft? Of course not.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
On one hand, I wish badges were really, you know, badges, and showed what your character did.
On the other hand, it's fairly obvious the system has failed from the start with so-called badge hunters exploiting every loophole and creating third party tools and cheat sheets. It'd certainly be nice to not have to grind these passive accolades each and everytime on every new character. |
Now granted over the years many of the badges that required those extreme measures have been fixed. But I would argue that those badges were fixed only because the people who had to do the relatively silly things to get them were able to report those problems to the Devs and provide the evidence to prove that those badge requirements needed to be fixed in the first place. You shouldn't be blaming us for "breaking" the system - if anything you should be thanking us for helping the Devs fix it.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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You already have account-wide badges.|
Originally Posted by Smooth_Operator
The topic pretty much says it.
I wish we could have account wide badges. My main character has some 600+ badges and I like them all and I like to show them. It is kind of my in game CV. |
Yes, I know that's not what you're talking about. Just trying to be concise and accurate up front.
Removing badging as a per-character prospect removes some of the extra layers of development a character can go through and would certainly lessen the replay value of alts.
The whole thing about the badging mini-game is that it's OPTIONAL. Sure, some of the badges unlock VERY nice-to-have stuff. But none of it is REQUIRED for gameplay. Even at the highest levels.
[quote[I like making new characters but I really really hate the idea that I would need to get all those badges a second time.[/quote]
Then don't. I have two badging characters. That's it. I feel no real need to get every damn badge on every damn character I have. Good lord! I'd never have time to play!
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| Anyone who collects badges knows that IT TAKES TIME and most of that time it is not specially fun. |
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| The amount of badges in the game is huge and in no sane person would collect them all to two or more characters. (I dare you to stay quiet insane people. I know you are there) |
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| Only thing it would require is a mental shift and some coding from devs. (Don't give me the usual "It can't be done" brown stuff because everything can be done... if there is a will there is a way). Instead badges being character related accomplishments they could be personal (as in I) accomplishments. |
CAN it be done? Sure!
SHOULD it be done? This is where we are going to see the disagreements.
Finally, if the devs don't want to do it, well, there's **** Creek. What? No! You can't have a paddle!
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Half a dozen badges having unrealistic requirements does not make engineered, systemic cheating acceptable ; nor does it even matter unless one assumes every badge should be obtainable, like it's a X% affair.| It's kind of hard to say the badge system "failed" in this game when you consider there was a time when the only way ANYONE could get some of badges in this game was to "exploit" loopholes, create third party tools and cheat sheets. |
That idea, that you should be able to have every badge, is already a perversion of the system in my eyes. At this point you're already done looking at badges show what characters have done, and moved on to how much do I have, gotta have them all territory.
It's not about blame. Rewarding puzzles or exploration in MMOs more often than not fails because it's much harder to prevent cheating for that sort of stuff than for experience or loot, and in this game it's obvious the devs not only didn't even try, but eventually embraced that mindset.
If I see someone with a thousand badges, I know it's more likely that he went to badge-hunter.com and took a look or downloaded maps and guides than did all that stuff naturally, and so, in the end, it means nothing ; and even people who might have done that stuff legitimately, it still means nothing to other players, because as there's no way to tell if they got all that by gaming or metagaming, the most likely assumption is that they took the easy path like everyone else. Them's the breaks.
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I actually did not see the NECESSITY of exploiting the system to earn those high level epic badges in question to be very desirable myself.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Half a dozen badges having unrealistic requirements does not make engineered, systemic cheating acceptable ; nor does it even matter unless one assumes every badge should be obtainable, like it's a X% affair.
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But back when many of us were working on badges like the one billion HP version of Empath the Devs (Positron specifically) were constantly telling us badgers "we the Devs SPECIFICALLY INTENDED those badges to be that high". Ironically after a few years the Devs changed their tune and sheepishly tried to rewrite history with excuses like "we made a decimal point error mistake and we ALWAYS intended Empath to be much less semi-impossible to get". Sure, whatever.
Clearly in the long run the Devs realized that it was a serious mistake for those badges to be set that high in the first place. People like me who actually went through the motions to prove that they were ridiculously too high helped pave the way to making badges like Empath ACTUALLY EARNABLE via normal play today. A character now has a reasonable chance to earn those badges the way YOU think they ought to be earned.
So you can remain stubborn in your idea that we badgers played "against the intentions" of the Devs. But if it wasn't for us then you wouldn't be able to earn those badges the supposedly proper way yourself.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
That idea, that you should be able to have every badge, is already a perversion of the system in my eyes. At this point you're already done looking at badges show what characters have done, and moved on to how much do I have, gotta have them all territory.
It's not about blame. Rewarding puzzles or exploration in MMOs more often than not fails because it's much harder to prevent cheating for that sort of stuff than for experience or loot, and in this game it's obvious the devs not only didn't even try, but eventually embraced that mindset. If I see someone with a thousand badges, I know it's more likely that he went to badge-hunter.com and took a look or downloaded maps and guides than did all that stuff naturally, and so, in the end, it means nothing ; and even people who might have done that stuff legitimately, it still means nothing to other players, because as there's no way to tell if they got all that by gaming or metagaming, the most likely assumption is that they took the easy path like everyone else. Them's the breaks. |
I fundamentally dismiss your notion that there's a "right" way to earn badges and a "wrong" way out of hand. If you want to self-impose your own view that characters should never actively go out of their way to earn badges then that's your deal, but it's not everyone's. When I see someone who has more than 1,000 badges then I see someone who shares the same type of enjoyment of this game that I do. I know full well what that person likely did to get those badges via metagaming or not, and it warms my heart to see someone who loves this game enough to be willing to put in the time and effort to achieve them. Them's the real breaks.
P.S. Whenever Positron himself appears in the game his character has ALWAYS had pretty much every badge in the game. He even had redside badges before crossover was allowed. I could very easily make the case that if the Devs never intended for players to earn "every badge in the game" then he made a pretty poor example for that point of view.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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For the exact reasons you just stated ... it's not Captain Awesome's achievment ... he doesn't even exist. It's your achievement and Captain Awesome was the tool you used to accomplish the task. And yes I understand people (especially the RP types) like to really get into character sometimes, but at the end of the day its an MMO played by a human being who is in fact the one doing everything in the game.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Why on earth would Captain Awesome, a character who lives in Paragon City, even own a badge that commemorates the anniversary of a real world MMO game? Why should anything in our real life actually apply to a character in a fictional game world? That kind of badge should not be related to Captain Awesome at all.
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And don't get me wrong, I've never been a fan of the yearly anniversary badges (especially since 2 badges are tied to the 1st anniversary), but since they do exist I honestly don't see how awarding a "real life" badge to an imaginary character is anymore immersion breaking than being on a team of all blasters when one of those characters says "let me change to my tank". If Captain Awesome can't figure out why he's holding an anniversary badge, just wait til the psychiatrist has to sit him down and explain that his sudden onset frequent "blackouts" are actually because his existence is mutually exclusive with Captain Tanker.
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/silly/ But with the introduction of Day Job Badges, he's not blacking out, he's just going "On Patrol"! Or he's doing his duty as a "Vanguard Recruit"! /silly/
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Originally Posted by Necronous
If Captain Awesome can't figure out why he's holding an anniversary badge, just wait til the psychiatrist has to sit him down and explain that his sudden onset frequent "blackouts" are actually because his existence is mutually exclusive with Captain Tanker.
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Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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That excuse only works on Commissioner Gordon! ... "Oh, you just missed Batman, he just left to 'patrol' the streets". But until I see Captain Awesome in the same room as Captain Tanker shaking hands ... I'll have my doubts! So nyah!|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
/silly/ But with the introduction of Day Job Badges, he's not blacking out, he's just going "On Patrol"! Or he's doing his duty as a "Vanguard Recruit"! /silly/
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Also, while typing that, I suddenly flashbacked to the scene where Adam West talks to himself over the phone as both Batman and Bruce Wayne at the same time .... silly commissioner.
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Hey! I call them "guides" or "progress charts". "Cheat sheets" makes it sound like you're cheating someone, which you are NOT.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
On the other hand, it's fairly obvious the system has failed from the start with so-called badge hunters exploiting every loophole and creating third party tools and cheat sheets.
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Oh, and "so-called badge hunters"? Bite me.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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And? Why would I care what people assume or think?|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
If I see someone with a thousand badges, I know it's more likely that he went to badge-hunter.com and took a look or downloaded maps and guides than did all that stuff naturally, and so, in the end, it means nothing ; and even people who might have done that stuff legitimately, it still means nothing to other players, because as there's no way to tell if they got all that by gaming or metagaming, the most likely assumption is that they took the easy path like everyone else. Them's the breaks.
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By the way, the badge system has, overall, been a definite success. For some people, it is their primary interest in the game. The game therefore has appeal to a broader audience than if it did not have badges. That is success - whether you agree or not; whether you like it or not. If it's helping retain or increase peoples interest in the game, it worked.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
The one shot badges, like the Anniversary badges need to be account wide.
Beyond that, theres not many that make sense to be account wide.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Yes I'm not exactly deluded enough to think that my hypothetical Captain Amazing is an actual person living in the game or that the badges he "earns" are "his" without my involvement as a player. On the other hand this game is built on the fundamental RPG character based model that has existed in games (both table top and computer based) for close to 40 years now so it's very easy for me to accept the idea that my characters are virtual individuals with their own unique assets.|
Originally Posted by Necronous
For the exact reasons you just stated ... it's not Captain Awesome's achievment ... he doesn't even exist. It's your achievement and Captain Awesome was the tool you used to accomplish the task. And yes I understand people (especially the RP types) like to really get into character sometimes, but at the end of the day its an MMO played by a human being who is in fact the one doing everything in the game.
And don't get me wrong, I've never been a fan of the yearly anniversary badges (especially since 2 badges are tied to the 1st anniversary), but since they do exist I honestly don't see how awarding a "real life" badge to an imaginary character is anymore immersion breaking than being on a team of all blasters when one of those characters says "let me change to my tank". If Captain Awesome can't figure out why he's holding an anniversary badge, just wait til the psychiatrist has to sit him down and explain that his sudden onset frequent "blackouts" are actually because his existence is mutually exclusive with Captain Tanker. |
Let me use a simple D&D analogy to highlight my point here: Let's say you had a Ranger in one campaign and a Paladin in another. Let's also say the Ranger finds a +5 sword. Now just because both of those characters have you (the player) in common doesn't mean it makes any sense that the Paladin playing in the other campaign automatically gets to use the sword. Likewise when one of your CoH characters gets a badge it makes no real sense that another character would automatically have the benefits of that badge as well.
Like it or not we play this game THROUGH characters we create. Characters here are not interchangeable Pacman sprites on the screen. They exist as separate "things" in the game world so even though they may share the same player driving them they really can't (nor shouldn't) share anything else.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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I can't say for certain that after 7.5 years of playing this game that badges were the top #1 reason that kept me playing this long. But I know for a fact that they definitely helped keep my interest during the times that I might have otherwise considered taking breaks between Issues. For that reason alone I think they served the Devs' purpose well enough.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
By the way, the badge system has, overall, been a definite success. For some people, it is their primary interest in the game. The game therefore has appeal to a broader audience than if it did not have badges. That is success - whether you agree or not; whether you like it or not. If it's helping retain or increase peoples interest in the game, it worked.
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Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
I wish that the badges unlocking costume parts or, for example, Midnighter Club access, were account-wide. (Regarding Midnighters, I'd pay to globally unlock that.)
For the Accolade Powers, I wish there was an additional means to get them for those that don't like badge-hunting. Perhaps buying them with one (or more) of our various flavors of merits.
I'm fine with there being a badge system. I'm not fine with it being (the only path) between me and valuable rewards.
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As I said before I can begrudgingly tolerate a few account-wide badges. I don't like them but I know the Anniversary badges sort of served a purpose before the Vet badges were introduced.|
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
The one shot badges, like the Anniversary badges need to be account wide.
Beyond that, theres not many that make sense to be account wide. |
But indeed beyond that there's no logical argument for any others to be account-wide unless you're willing to ignore the fundamental character-based nature of this game. The Devs' should have come up with the concept of "player badges" that would not be directly attached to any character. That would have served as a workable compromise for those people who like to see this game as being player-centric.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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Those rewards you speak of are BADGING rewards. If you don't like to badge then you don't deserve the things badging will provide. It's really just that simple. It's like saying I want to play with a level 50 Tank but I don't want to do things it takes to level up a Tank to level 50. It's the exact same argument. *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by ScottyB
I'm fine with there being a badge system. I'm not fine with it being (the only path) between me and valuable rewards.
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Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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It can be done, with a considerable risk of corrupting character data. Is it worth the risk? Maybe. Would I like to see account badges have their own category? You bet.|
Originally Posted by Smooth_Operator
Only thing it would require is a mental shift and some coding from devs. (Don't give me the usual "It can't be done" brown stuff because everything can be done... if there is a will there is a way). Instead badges being character related accomplishments they could be personal (as in I) accomplishments.
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
The one shot badges, like the Anniversary badges need to be account wide.
Beyond that, theres not many that make sense to be account wide. |
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
On the other hand, it's fairly obvious the system has failed from the start with so-called badge hunters exploiting every loophole and creating third party tools and cheat sheets.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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The thing is, the sword is a CHARACTER ASSET, the badges a PLAYER ACHIEVEMENT.(Note: Caps for emphasis, not yelling). Which does bring up the one flaw to a totally account based badge system, and this is the accolades which do have a character asset in the form of increased HP and END. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Let me use a simple D&D analogy to highlight my point here: Let's say you had a Ranger in one campaign and a Paladin in another. Let's also say the Ranger finds a +5 sword. Now just because both of those characters have you (the player) in common doesn't mean it makes any sense that the Paladin playing in the other campaign automatically gets to use the sword. Likewise when one of your CoH characters gets a badge it makes no real sense that another character would automatically have the benefits of that badge as well.
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Thus either one of two things make sense to me:
1) Remove accolade bonuses and tie them to something else, then make all badges account wide
2) Make a larger subset of badges account wide, leaving most gameplay badges as character specific. Categories that come to mind are Real Life Badges (Anniversary, Logons), Non-defeat event badges (Skiing, Logons), and maybe even Auction House/Crafting since people often shove it all to one or two characters anyway.
I like #2 better myself.
Edit for Afterthought: Also, while in a tabletop RPG, passing the +5 sword across campaigns is nonsensical (The MMO equivalent would be sending a sword from one character on WoW to one character on LoTRO ... different campaigns are more akin to characters in different MMOs than different characters in the same MMO) ... but sending that +5 sword internally within an MMO between characters is obviously common which has led to the invention of Soulbound / Account Bound / EX or whatever term the MMO uses to keep that gear on you. But lets face it, some games do let that Ranger give anything and everything to that Paladin. Food for thought.
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An item is not a badge - although even in CoH one can transfer enhancements, salvage and recipes between characters via global name. Badges are like Xbox achievements or Playstation trophies, they record what a player has done in the game. Now that I think about it, it would be better (though unlikely given the need for new development) if all badges were account-wide, and an account's badge info included a list of characters that fulfilled the requirements for the badge. Only those characters could set the title. (And for Accolade Powers, only those characters could make use of the power.) Their name could also persist on the badge info, even after deletion, as proof that a player at one time did in fact accomplish some task.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Let's say you had a Ranger in one campaign and a Paladin in another. Let's also say the Ranger finds a +5 sword. Now just because both of those characters have you (the player) in common doesn't mean it makes any sense that the Paladin playing in the other campaign automatically gets to use the sword. Likewise when one of your CoH characters gets a badge it makes no real sense that another character would automatically have the benefits of that badge as well.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Those rewards you speak of are BADGING rewards. If you don't like to badge then you don't deserve the things badging will provide. It's really just that simple.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
It's like saying I want to play with a level 50 Tank but I don't want to do things it takes to level up a Tank to level 50. It's the exact same argument. *shrugs*
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Further, a badger gets Reward Merits and XP for collecting badges, which can get the same rewards I get for doing other content. Why isn't the reverse true?
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A number of AE badges (basically all the ones there are except, perhaps, Early Bird as I recall) make perfect sense as account wide :P
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Originally Posted by Lothic
As I said before I can begrudgingly tolerate a few account-wide badges. I don't like them but I know the Anniversary badges sort of served a purpose before the Vet badges were introduced.
But indeed beyond that there's no logical argument for any others to be account-wide unless you're willing to ignore the fundamental character-based nature of this game. The Devs' should have come up with the concept of "player badges" that would not be directly attached to any character. That would have served as a workable compromise for those people who like to see this game as being player-centric. |
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Thank you for making AFK damage farming feel like I'm doing something slightly naughty. :-)
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
That idea, that you should be able to have every badge, is already a perversion of the system in my eyes.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
I agree that "fun" differs from person to person. I do like to collect badges, don't get me wrong there but what I don't like is to collect them twice or more. To me that is just plain pain.
And as someone already so helpfully pointed out that we already do have "global badges" like veteran badges. What do they have to do with the specific character? It's not like that the character I create today has been around for four or so years. If all badges should be specific to the character, those veteran badges shouldn't be in your badge list.
But ok ok I get your point. Easy solution that should make everyone happy is to create a additional tab to personal info page that would show your combined badges. That way we could show the character related badges and also show what you have done as a player. I know I would be happy with that. How about you?
Fighting l33t since 1974
Don't "lol"! Laugh!
Sanity Inc
@8Qbit
The topic pretty much says it.
I wish we could have account wide badges. My main character has some 600+ badges and I like them all and I like to show them. It is kind of my in game CV.
I like making new characters but I really really hate the idea that I would need to get all those badges a second time. Anyone who collects badges knows that IT TAKES TIME and most of that time it is not specially fun. The amount of badges in the game is huge and in no sane person would collect them all to two or more characters. (I dare you to stay quiet insane people. I know you are there)
Only thing it would require is a mental shift and some coding from devs. (Don't give me the usual "It can't be done" brown stuff because everything can be done... if there is a will there is a way). Instead badges being character related accomplishments they could be personal (as in I) accomplishments.
Fighting l33t since 1974
Don't "lol"! Laugh!
Sanity Inc
@8Qbit