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I don't believe I mentioned rewards in there at all. And in fact have been fine with "Getting rewards more slowly" on a teaming path - just so long as that's a REASONABLE timing.

Do try not putting words in my mouth, or making assumptions. Especially when those assumptions go against something I've said already.

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You don't seem to be reading what is typed. It's obvious teaming is going to earn better rewards, there is no issue with that aspect. The issue is the LACK of a solo/small team path that is reasonable.

Seriously, how many times does this have to be repeated?

Not one single person is asking for the same earning rate as the trials.

Edit: removed snark, well more snark. :P

People have been asking for large-scale team-based content though.

Why does it HAVE to be raids? I mean, honestly - why the "but it's always done this way" post?

Why does MMO have to mean no player created in-game content? See AE. Yes, I know people farm - but people also create arcs.

Why does MMO have to mean gear-based costuming? See our costume creator and enhancement system.

So...

Why does "End game content" have to mean raid? Why are our devs insisting on remaining in *that* box?

Edit: Before Arilou or anyone else misreads that - that's not "there should be no raids." But there can be something ELSE coexisting, and the apparent surprise that people would want it... Let me put it this way. I like raids... as a spice. Much like I like salt. I add a little to some foods I eat. I do not chow down on blocks of salt for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

The direction of Incarnate content? "Here, have some Salt Krispies, they stay crispy in salt! Oh, we're having salt for lunch. And how would you like your salt for dinner... wait, what do you mean, water? Salad? Huh? No, really, have some salt."

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Partially because, well, what's the point of having a server with thousands of people on it if you can only ever work with 8 at the same time? Massively multiplayer games have their charm in well, their ability to have a massive amount of players working together.

Doesen't mean everything has to be about that of course, but it's one part of the MMORPG experience.

Multi-team content allows for more spectatcular encounters than solo or small team content.

Since when is soloing easier than teaming? If anything the opposite is true, teams often tend to be steamrollers.

There is another irrefutable fact, and that is the difference between adding new content and revising old content is that adding new content adds new content and keeps the old content, while revising old content adds new content and deletes old content. That's why adding new content tends to be valued higher, and why the balance generally is in favor of making new content. Making all new content is revision without deletion.

When that's not true, like adding powerset customization options, the opposite happens: revising the old tends to acquire the same or higher priority as making the new.

It would be different if updating the old took less time than creating the new, so you got more bang for your buck. But the devs have also said that updating the old generally requires as much or more effort than making the new, because updating the old basically involves making something totally new that happens to parallel the old. So it takes as much effort to make, on top of the additional requirement to maintain touchstones with the old.

Its only one of many factors going into the decision making process, but one of them is definitely that revisions delete the old while additions only add the new. And Flashback can only mitigate that to a degree.

I have to nit-pick your semantics here. Soloing is almost never "easier" than teaming, it just takes less effort and work, on average. Teaming requires not just the effort inherent in playing the game, but also the effort inherent in constructing, managing and supporting a team structure comprised of fickle volunteers, so the effort in running one has that as a very significant overhead.

But I will never buy the argument that a lone character has blanket easier time with content than a team of eight would have with the same content, even with content scaling in effect. This simply isn't true.

Gameplay at the level cap. This is actually a pretty simple thought exercise. Take a look at the game, and notice it has gameplay. This gameplay scales from level 1 to level 50. Gameplay at the level cap, therefore, can be gameplay pretty much like it, only scaled to be harder. It honestly is just that simple. It might not have been a revolutionary breakthrough in the history of the game, but I, at least, wasn't really looking for one.

I'm reminded of the Spoony One lamenting the tragic fate of the Highlander series of movies: "You know how you make a Highlander sequel? Watch Highlander... Then make something just like it!" That's more or less what I wanted to see as end game: Play the rest of the game, then make more like that.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Do look at what you said:

ONE PART.

Not "The whole thing."

What's the point? That I can socialize, if I choose. Even when I solo, I'm talking to other people. I'm checking out costumes as I go by. I'm using the market (mostly to dump stuff on.) I'm helping others out.

"Working together" does not mean "YOU MUST TEAM!"

Much like the endgame, Incarnate content doesn't have to mean that.

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Which content, pray tell, would be deleted by going through the often-requested revamp of Dark Astoria?

It's true when you're looking at (say) redoing Synapse - though that gets moved to Ouro, so even then saying "It gets deleted" isn't true. Even Calvin Scott is back.

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TFs, Advanced Crafting, pvp, a BETTER user generated content system, a system surround player housing that everyone can actually get into... you know things this game, and others have been doing since mmos came into existence?

Yes, but again in no way shape or form had to be linked to being End Game content. How do I know, two words:

Mothership Raid.

That's a good point, by the way. Lots of people asked for raids. Lots of people asked for end game. But how many people asked for raids AS end game? Do we know? Do we care?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Please, please let it be another useless Numina TF hunt being removed from the game!

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Warmhammer has something called public quests. They are NOT raids in the traditional sense.

MMORP does not mean raids. No matter how much the 800 lb gorilla wants us to thinks so.

And news flash, casue folks missed when another poster mentioned it before, but the king of raiding endgame and mmos just recently reduced the number of folks required to raid.

If I'm not mistaken you can do such content in teams of 5-8 now.

So no raid does not have to mean 16 or more players. And endgame content does not have to mean bigger than 8.

Yep, but it doesn't have to be raids.

Again see Warhammer or even this game's direct competition: Public Quests.

Because of the effort it takes to form a team. Soloing can be done at any time or any point. (even say soloing TF's would be very easy as you could just quit when you get bored and continue later, which you still can do on a team but it's again, much more complicated since you have to schedule a return-time with other people) teaming requires a bunch of people to be at the same time and point and intention. This makes it by nature more complicated to form a team than to solo.

If a task takes 30 minutes on a team of eight, and a comparable task takes 30 minutes to solo, the solo task is going to be easier. (and since MMORPG's rarely have actual permanent "failures" with real consequences, time is really the only metric that matters)

Examples quoted for truth. I agree with the other points about the general trend of the thread as well, but those illustrate why a solo option should be present.

To be fair, there really isn't much of a difference between a PQ and an instanced raid, functionally.

I lol'd.

To get back on topic, I'm glad that once again this dev/community team proves it's better than the rest in taking feedback.

Even when that feedback is as sweet as bucket of lemons.

Looking forward to Freedom, issues 22-infinity, etc.

And it will be

Errr depends if you mean modern mmos or the original ones. For most games you need to preform the raid then go into it.

A public quest in modern mmos, anyone who just walks by can often join in.

That's a HUGE difference.

Unless it's changed recently for raids in the 800 lb gorilla, once a raid starts NO ONE else can join, for a public quest, anyone at anytime can join. And your individual participation is rewarded.

To be fair, I don't think anyone has actually argued against a solo-option, just against making it too easy.