City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Freedom: Travel power at level 4

8-J

By 8-J,
Posted on: 2011-08-03 11:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy View Post
And Invisibility without needing to take Stealth? Why would you take stealth if that were an option?
I think the better question is why would anyone take Invisibility? Stealth + Super Speed or Stealth + Stealth IO provides sufficient concealment to make you invisible to most enemies and unlike Invisibility does not prevent you from attacking allowing you to run it in combat for the defense bonus if you want (or to avoid having to retoggle it after combat if you have multiple objectives). Between inherent Swift and the buff to Sprint in I18 the run speed debuff doesn't really matter than much.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I think the better question is why would anyone take Invisibility? Stealth + Super Speed or Stealth + Stealth IO provides sufficient concealment to make you invisible to most enemies and unlike Invisibility does not prevent you from attacking allowing you to run it in combat for the defense bonus if you want (or to avoid having to retoggle it after combat if you have multiple objectives). Between inherent Swift and the buff to Sprint in I18 the run speed debuff doesn't really matter than much.
Winner, winner.

Chicken Dinner.

If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

Black Pebble is my new hero.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Well, I have more info than that. Not much more, but still one less level of hearsay.
Depends. You have quoted a specific person, getting one degree of separation closer, but that person didn't clarify much, saying "noticing that I could take Aid Self, asking if that was working as intended, and being told it was, to my surprise." That doesn't even say who he asked.

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Why are you using quotes? You are not quoting anyone. You literally made up a statement on your own and then put it in quotes so that you could argue against that statement as if someone else said it.
I wasn't quoting anyone nor trying to look as if I was. The quotes were intended to set off that phrase from the rest of the sentence as a logical unit, to reduce confusion. The use of quotes in that way is somewhat uncommon, I admit, and it failed to work in this case.

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Originally Posted by Sailboat
The assumption was that "this thing at the con" represents "a firm promise of what will be in the live game."
I figured that saying, The assumption was that this thing at the con represents...would just cause the reader to stop cold and think "Woah, what thing?" But by grouping it the way I did, I tried to convey [the entire issue people are concerned about, which came up incidentally at the con] and then go on with my sentence. Win some, lose some, I guess.

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
There are countless other little details that we have only learned about by information people learned at the SDCC. I think it is much more reasonable to believe the information gleaned from the SDCC (until it is changed)
Fine, but my point is, we didn't really glean information. We have the classic situation where a few people claim some unnamed party of unknown level of authority said something. That is a great starting point for nailing down what is actually meant, which I tried to do before.

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
why would I choose to believe the opposite?
You shouldn't choose to believe anything so easily, neither some guy's unsourced post from the con, nor the opposite, nor me. Choose to get excited about a rumor or tidbit, sure, but don't choose to believe without some form of solid evidence. Especially in the case of a dramatic reversal of years-old policy like this. Especially in cases where you want it to be true.

If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I think the better question is why would anyone take Invisibility? Stealth + Super Speed or Stealth + Stealth IO provides sufficient concealment to make you invisible to most enemies and unlike Invisibility does not prevent you from attacking allowing you to run it in combat for the defense bonus if you want (or to avoid having to retoggle it after combat if you have multiple objectives). Between inherent Swift and the buff to Sprint in I18 the run speed debuff doesn't really matter than much.
My Invulnerability Tanker took Stealth and Invisibility. He could use both mule powers for LOTG +Rchg IOs, and Invisibility suppresses Invincibility from affecting or aggroing enemies, so I can walk past them undetected without shutting off Invincibility and risking forgetting to turn it back on when the fight starts. Very handy. But a pretty specialized use, I admit.

If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

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Originally Posted by Texas Justice View Post
Winner, winner.

Chicken Dinner.
I'm sorry, I suspect you of counting cards, so I'm going to drag you out into an alley and beat you.

Okay, I lied... the beating is for reminding me of that crappy movie.

Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093

-----
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

 

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
This is not the case. Pool Tier 3 powers outside of travel powers will still be restricted as they are now. Only travel powers will benefit from this change.
This right here sucks.

Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base

"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh

 

Posted

What movie? It's a reference to old Vegas casino Chicken Dinner specials for $1.79. Since a standard bet back then was $2.00, a winning bet would be enough to get you a meal.

Edit: Now that I think about it it may be a quote from Tin Cup. Not a bad movie all things considered.

If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

Black Pebble is my new hero.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Here's another question:

Why should we be forced* to take a power that is more or less made obsolete by the power we actually want just to get that power we want?


*Yes, you have the option to Grant Ivis. Setting aside arguments about the GI's merit, it's still a power pick wasted on a power you may not even want and will never use. That's wasteful and a stupid, un-fun choice to make players decide on the lesser of two evils.

IMO the prerequisites on pool powers are unneeded and are just an annoying restriction that doesn't add any fun to building a character. They should be removed on ALL pools and the only restrictions be the number of separate pools you can dip into and the level you can take the powers.


.
This!

Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base

"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh

 

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Why should we be forced* to take a power that is more or less made obsolete by the power we actually want just to get that power we want?
Ironically, in the specific case of Concealment, it could be argued that the tier 3 is the worst of the 4 powers (I view it as the least useful myself). Based on the following quote however, I think your actual question is: Why should we be forced to take a power we do not want just to get another power we do want?

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
IMO the prerequisites on pool powers are unneeded and are just an annoying restriction that doesn't add any fun to building a character. They should be removed on ALL pools and the only restrictions be the number of separate pools you can dip into and the level you can take the powers.
In this case it is a build cost specifically designed to make you sometimes skip a power you may otherwise want. You can disagree that the cost is necessary, but I hope that you can at least understand that there is a specific and thought out reason for the restriction. It certainly could be argued that limiting people to 4 power pools is enough of a limit and that requiring certain powers in the pools in order to access "higher tier" pool powers is overly restrictive. OTOH, I am a fan of systems that give me meaningful choices, and having meaningful choices often means that I have to leave valuable stuff on the table because I can't have it all.

The real problem with pool powers is not that removing the restrictions would just let everyone easily take Tough, Weave, and maybe Aid Self, but rather that everyone WANTS to take Tough, Weave, and maybe Aid Self over other pool powers because they are just that much better.

Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms View Post
The last I had heard about this was that everyone would be able to pick travel powers at four, but only those with City Traveler can do the same with any Pool Power. Is this inaccurate?
What they are talking about is that you can now chose which vet rewards you want to get next, and even buy them if you want. So most will chose the traveler's vet reward next, like myself! Yay! My many flying scrappers will be free to get rid of hover!

 

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
The real problem with pool powers is not that removing the restrictions would just let everyone easily take Tough, Weave, and maybe Aid Self, but rather that everyone WANTS to take Tough, Weave, and maybe Aid Self over other pool powers because they are just that much better.
I agree, it would be nice if everything was somehow made roughly equally desirable.

If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Here's another question:

Why should we be forced* to take a power that is more or less made obsolete by the power we actually want just to get that power we want?


*Yes, you have the option to Grant Ivis. Setting aside arguments about the GI's merit, it's still a power pick wasted on a power you may not even want and will never use. That's wasteful and a stupid, un-fun choice to make players decide on the lesser of two evils.

IMO the prerequisites on pool powers are unneeded and are just an annoying restriction that doesn't add any fun to building a character. They should be removed on ALL pools and the only restrictions be the number of separate pools you can dip into and the level you can take the powers.


.
I have to agree with this. Using the Concealment pool as the example, as I use it often, I know I don't care for having to grab any of the Concealment powers when my Primary, Secondary or Both come with a Stealth power, and I just want Phase Shift to go along with it.

BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

I missed a lot of this thread since I initially assumed this would apply to all Pool powers, read Z's post that, no it won't, and was subsequently so sad I didn't know what to say. Having given it a day to simmer, I have to say this:

Damn it! I was so optimistic about this. Unlike powersets, pools are designed to combine a range of "roles." Take for instance Medicine - it combines support and self-defence. Or how about Presence - it combines tanking with control. The problem here isn't that I have to take a weaker power to take a better power, not at all. This is a fact of life with a powerset, after all. I have to take Jab or Punch in order to take Haymaker. But with Pools, I have to take a taunt power if I want a support power, even when I'm playing a character who has no use for taunt powers, like a Blaster or a Mastermind (that I haven't built to be a "tankermind"). If I want a self-protection power, I have to take a team support power, even on a character I don't plan to team with much at all.

What this means is I'm literally forced to take a power I do not want, will not use and don't even agree with. Sure, OK, it's a good way to save slots... If I happened to need that, which these days I rarely do in the land of inherent Fitness. But I'm still forced to take something I don't want for the sake of something I do. And again - not just a weaker power, but a power which is completely sideways of what I want my character to do. It's like wanting to buy nice car, but not being allowed to until I buy an apartment in Botswana.

In fact, let me run down the list of pools and look at what I want and what I have to take to get it.

Fighting: I want Tough, primarily. It's a decent resistance buff. To get it, I have to take either of two melee attacks which A) aren't very good and B) put away my weapon. I don't want 'em.

Medicine: I want to take a heal for myself. It's interruptible and kind of weak, but it's handy. To get it, I have to take either of two team support powers which A) require a team to use, which I don't have very often and B) are very rarely useful even on a team since I have better methods of protecting my team-mates.

Invisibility: I want Phase Shift because I have a character who's a ghost. To get this, I have to take invisibility powers of some kind, which doesn't make as much sense, especially since the self-used stealth power is weaksauce and the others are team-only.

Presence: I want either of two fear powers because my character is supposed to be indescribably scary. To get that, I need to take either of two taunt powers which A) I already have in my powersets on three quarters of the characters I play and B) I don't actually WANT on characters who don't already have them.

I'm probably forgetting a pool or two, but the point is the same: There is a certain type of power that I need or want on specific characters, and taking a completely different kind of power as a prerequisite just doesn't work for me. If I want a self-buff, then I can stand taking a self-buff that's weaker as a prerequisite. Even as a weaker power, it's still somewhat useful and I'm going to be using it. On the other hand, if I want a self-buff, I'm not going to be interested in taking a travel power which doesn't make sense for the character first.

Doh! I knew I was forgetting something! Acrobatics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
That's some guy telling us some other guy asked "someone there" if it was WAI and was told yes.
This guy told you to look through the 1000+ posts in the comic con reveals thread to find the post because at the time, I couldnt remember who it was that said it, sorry I didnt do the legwork for you.

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That doesn't even specify the person as an employee of paragon, NC Soft, the con, or a temp booth hire; it doesn't differentiate between "working as intended for this demonstration" and "working as intended for the upcoming live Issue." We don't even have names. That's approximately "urban legend level" of proof.
Or after you perused the comic con thread, you could have pm'd Major_Decoy.

I never said it was official word.

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I have to agree with this. Using the Concealment pool as the example, as I use it often, I know I don't care for having to grab any of the Concealment powers when my Primary, Secondary or Both come with a Stealth power, and I just want Phase Shift to go along with it.
I have to warn you and Djeannie.

When I post advocating a change, the amount of sense I/it make(s) added to the number of people who agree with me is inversely proportional to the chances of the devs listening.




.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post

The real problem with pool powers is not that removing the restrictions would just let everyone easily take Tough, Weave, and maybe Aid Self, but rather that everyone WANTS to take Tough, Weave, and maybe Aid Self over other pool powers because they are just that much better.
Yeah. Every RPG player wants a Santa Claus DM...... until they get one.

Most of the tier 1 Pool powers would never get chosen at all if they had to compete with Tier 2 powers. Travels are different, though, because they don't serve a tactical purpose so much as a convenience purpose. SS doubles as stealth, but the rest are just there to get you across zones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I missed a lot of this thread since I initially assumed this would apply to all Pool powers, read Z's post that, no it won't, and was subsequently so sad I didn't know what to say. Having given it a day to simmer, I have to say this:

Damn it! I was so optimistic about this. Unlike powersets, pools are designed to combine a range of "roles." Take for instance Medicine - it combines support and self-defence. Or how about Presence - it combines tanking with control. The problem here isn't that I have to take a weaker power to take a better power, not at all. This is a fact of life with a powerset, after all. I have to take Jab or Punch in order to take Haymaker. But with Pools, I have to take a taunt power if I want a support power, even when I'm playing a character who has no use for taunt powers, like a Blaster or a Mastermind (that I haven't built to be a "tankermind"). If I want a self-protection power, I have to take a team support power, even on a character I don't plan to team with much at all.

What this means is I'm literally forced to take a power I do not want, will not use and don't even agree with. Sure, OK, it's a good way to save slots... If I happened to need that, which these days I rarely do in the land of inherent Fitness. But I'm still forced to take something I don't want for the sake of something I do. And again - not just a weaker power, but a power which is completely sideways of what I want my character to do. It's like wanting to buy nice car, but not being allowed to until I buy an apartment in Botswana.

In fact, let me run down the list of pools and look at what I want and what I have to take to get it.

Fighting: I want Tough, primarily. It's a decent resistance buff. To get it, I have to take either of two melee attacks which A) aren't very good and B) put away my weapon. I don't want 'em.

Medicine: I want to take a heal for myself. It's interruptible and kind of weak, but it's handy. To get it, I have to take either of two team support powers which A) require a team to use, which I don't have very often and B) are very rarely useful even on a team since I have better methods of protecting my team-mates.

Invisibility: I want Phase Shift because I have a character who's a ghost. To get this, I have to take invisibility powers of some kind, which doesn't make as much sense, especially since the self-used stealth power is weaksauce and the others are team-only.

Presence: I want either of two fear powers because my character is supposed to be indescribably scary. To get that, I need to take either of two taunt powers which A) I already have in my powersets on three quarters of the characters I play and B) I don't actually WANT on characters who don't already have them.

I'm probably forgetting a pool or two, but the point is the same: There is a certain type of power that I need or want on specific characters, and taking a completely different kind of power as a prerequisite just doesn't work for me. If I want a self-buff, then I can stand taking a self-buff that's weaker as a prerequisite. Even as a weaker power, it's still somewhat useful and I'm going to be using it. On the other hand, if I want a self-buff, I'm not going to be interested in taking a travel power which doesn't make sense for the character first.

Doh! I knew I was forgetting something! Acrobatics
The presence pool is the best example, because hardly anyone that isn't a tank has any use at all for taunt (except Tanker-Minds). Clearly you're taking the first power merely to get the second, and for no other reason, and that's how it should be. The second power is way too uber to be compared with other Tier 1 pool powers. A better workaround would be to have better choices for the tier 1 powers. It would be great if the Devs would spend some time reworking some of them.

1) - Fighting. I don't see any reason why the attacks couldn't use similar animation to brawl, which doesn't cause you to sheathe your weapon. (Brawl even has a kick animation for if your character is holding a bow.)

2) - Medicine - IDK. Some people never team. I myself only take medicine on toons that are going to have pets at some point in their lives. (Perhaps a good workaround would be to add a pet pool power set, so everyone can make their team powers useful in single player.)

3) - Invisibility - I don't see a problem. Maybe they should improve the self concealment power so it does something Super Speed doesn't. (Other than add between 1 and 2.5% defense, that most builds won't notice.) Even just consuming less end would be an improvement.

4) - Presence - Would be nice if one of the tier 1 powers were something other than a taunt. It's not often a blaster has need of that. An "Untaunt", that reduces aggro against you would be more handy.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Here's another question:

Why should we be forced* to take a power that is more or less made obsolete by the power we actually want just to get that power we want?


*Yes, you have the option to Grant Ivis. Setting aside arguments about the GI's merit, it's still a power pick wasted on a power you may not even want and will never use. That's wasteful and a stupid, un-fun choice to make players decide on the lesser of two evils.

IMO the prerequisites on pool powers are unneeded and are just an annoying restriction that doesn't add any fun to building a character. They should be removed on ALL pools and the only restrictions be the number of separate pools you can dip into and the level you can take the powers.


.
Gotta agree with this.

Also, how about sprucing up some of the wimpier pool powers to make them actually useful? What is the point of having any powers in the game that nobody wants to take? Same thing about brawl and your origin starting power. Make them decent enough that they're worth using even after you've gotten a few of your powerset attacks.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
The problem here isn't that I have to take a weaker power to take a better power, not at all. This is a fact of life with a powerset, after all. I have to take Jab or Punch in order to take Haymaker.
?

On a brute, that's not true at all. You can take Haymaker without taking either Jab or Punch.

On a tank, it's not really true either. You have to take Jab because it's the first power in the secondary, not because it's a prerequisite for Haymaker.

"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy

 

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Originally Posted by GATE-keeper View Post
On a brute, that's not true at all. You can take Haymaker without taking either Jab or Punch.
Err... How? When you pick Super Strength for a Brute, you have to take either Jab or Punch. You cannot make a character without taking either of those powers. Also, I'm not sure why you're picking on an offhand comment that has no purpose other than to say "I can accept prerequisites."

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Originally Posted by 8-J View Post
1) - Fighting. I don't see any reason why the attacks couldn't use similar animation to brawl, which doesn't cause you to sheathe your weapon. (Brawl even has a kick animation for if your character is holding a bow.)
BABs explained that it was just a lot of work to rig a power like that. Brawl, purportedly, is the most complex power in the game because of how its animation is set up. BABs also explained that while this wasn't in the slightest impossible (when I suggested this be done for Kick and only Kick), he knew such a change would spawn requests to do this to all other powers that put weapons away, which he didn't ever foresee having the resources to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8-J View Post
2) - Medicine - IDK. Some people never team. I myself only take medicine on toons that are going to have pets at some point in their lives. (Perhaps a good workaround would be to add a pet pool power set, so everyone can make their team powers useful in single player.)
Giving me a power I can use on myself as a prerequisite would solve the problem, really. I have no use for second-rate team-only buffs on a Scrapper or a Brute. Giving me something that I could buff myself with as a prereq, that I could go with, even if it's not very good.

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3) - Invisibility - I don't see a problem. Maybe they should improve the self concealment power so it does something Super Speed doesn't. (Other than add between 1 and 2.5% defense, that most builds won't notice.) Even just consuming less end would be an improvement.
I personally feel that Phase Shift is just out of place in the Invisibility pool. It's not an invisibility power, it's an intangibility power. There are characters who can turn intangible while never being able to go fully invisible, and it is just these characters that I'd take Phase Shift on. By contrast, almost none of the characters I can think or conceive of who CAN turn invisible can also turn intangible. The conceptual link there is very tenuous.

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Originally Posted by 8-J View Post
4) - Presence - Would be nice if one of the tier 1 powers were something other than a taunt. It's not often a blaster has need of that. An "Untaunt", that reduces aggro against you would be more handy.
I'm really not sure why the Fear powers are considered so strong here. They're very crappy control powers using an effect that's not all that consistent in its mitigation, yet both of them cost A LOT. I realise that something like Touch of Fear is a powerful tool, but Intimidate ain't it. Its duration is short and its recharge long. It's good as partial control of a single enemy, but hardly something I see as overpowered. I can totally see the single-target taunt and fear powers being moved to first and second position with the AoEs needing to be unlocked.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I personally feel that Phase Shift is just out of place in the Invisibility pool. It's not an invisibility power, it's an intangibility power. There are characters who can turn intangible while never being able to go fully invisible, and it is just these characters that I'd take Phase Shift on. By contrast, almost none of the characters I can think or conceive of who CAN turn invisible can also turn intangible. The conceptual link there is very tenuous.
Martian Manhunter is capable of decreasing his density to the point of intangibility and also turning invisible. Ghost is an Iron Man villain that's capable of Intagibility and Invisibility.

Concept wise though: Invisible characters can make light pass through them as if they were not there. Intangible characters can make matter pass through them as if they were not there. It's not a huge leap to put them in the same pool.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post

BABs explained that it was just a lot of work to rig a power like that. Brawl, purportedly, is the most complex power in the game because of how its animation is set up. BABs also explained that while this wasn't in the slightest impossible (when I suggested this be done for Kick and only Kick), he knew such a change would spawn requests to do this to all other powers that put weapons away, which he didn't ever foresee having the resources to do.
I can see the requests for other powers getting annoying, but for punch and kick, it's the exact same animation. Maybe the tough part is in coding or something like that instead?

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Giving me a power I can use on myself as a prerequisite would solve the problem, really. I have no use for second-rate team-only buffs on a Scrapper or a Brute. Giving me something that I could buff myself with as a prereq, that I could go with, even if it's not very good.
Yeah. That would be nice. Maybe they could ditch stimulant for it. I rarely see anyone take that power.

I actually created a MM build just to try and incorporate it, but with the recharge time and the interrupt, I really didn't find many chances to use it. Those few times I did use it were before AV fights to make my henchmen mezz proof, and I swear by the time I got to apply it to the last henchman, the buff on the first one was getting ready to wear off already.

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I personally feel that Phase Shift is just out of place in the Invisibility pool. It's not an invisibility power, it's an intangibility power. There are characters who can turn intangible while never being able to go fully invisible, and it is just these characters that I'd take Phase Shift on. By contrast, almost none of the characters I can think or conceive of who CAN turn invisible can also turn intangible. The conceptual link there is very tenuous.
I can see your concern thematically. It can certainly break your concept. Self Concealment makes some sense because you're going to get some help stealthing (because you can walk through walls, or sink into the floor), but I'm not sure about full on invisibility (unless it justifies the same way.) But then you have to imagine something there aren't going to be VFX for.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
The problem here isn't that I have to take a weaker power to take a better power, not at all. This is a fact of life with a powerset, after all. I have to take Jab or Punch in order to take Haymaker.
This is not strictly true. It is merely functionally how it ends up. Strictly speaking, you just have to have Super Strength and be level 2/4. Functionally, to create a character with Super Strength you have to choose a power from it at level 1 when the only powers available are Jab and possibly Punch. If you could wait and grab Super Strength at a level when Haymaker is available, you could skip Jab/Punch.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
You tell me how I get Haymaker before Jab or Punch WITHOUT TAKING EITHER and I'll believe you.
I did tell you.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound