The Shields will be 20% resistance instead of 15%; As for Warmth and Cauterize, those will heal for the exact same amount on a defender as Healing Aura and Heal Other do for Empath Defenders.
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Someone posted some numbers on the last page of the "Fire blast in i21" thread.
I'm not the expert who'll tell you if they're accurate or whatnot, but they don't seem to be too unrealistic, so you might want to start up Mid's or look in-game for the Thermal numbers on Corrs and compare them with those.
Hope this helps.
Do both.
I'm gay for a straight port of Melt Armor (-30% resists for defenders).
I'm flaming for a straight port of Forge (+50% damage for defenders).
And the potential synergy between -30% resist Melt Armor and -62.5% damage Heat Exhaustion has me in serious need of a cold shower right now. That, right there, is why people will roll Thermal defenders. There's a new +2AV/GM soloist on the block, and his name is Thermal/Sonic....
If it does -60% dmg, then add it to dual pistols for cap -dmg from an AV (10% dmg actually working, then add in thermal resists and whoever's resists as well). It'd be crazy fun!
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
Does -dmg stack with -resistance? due in part to resistance resisting -dmg debuffs? So basically if you slap someone with say, -20% resistance, then smack them with -20% -dmg, would the -dmg actually debuff closer to -24%? (20% of 20%?) or would it be a start -20% damage.
I know how resistance resists resistance debuffs, but the end result is a straight increase of damage of the -resistance value (so if you have 95% resistance, and your debuffed by -20%, you'll be knocked down to about -94% resistance, but you'll to 20% more damage then before) How does that calucation work with -dam debuffs as well?
Damage resistance resists damage debuffs of the same type, so yes, applying -res will increase the effectiveness of -dam.
The calculation actually ends up working the same way as for damage - applying a certain % of -res will always increase your damage debuffs by that percentage. If you stick a -30% resistance debuff on someone with 50% resistance (thus dropping them from 50% to 35%), a damage debuff of, say, 30% base would go from 15% to 19.5% - a 30% increase. And, of course, if they didn't have any resistance to start with then the damage debuff would improve to greater than its base value.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
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Very nice. that makes sets with -dmg and -res that much better with higher values (go go thermal defenders 
)
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Not true. I asked Arcanaville about this a while back because I thought the same but wanted some clarity.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Damage resistance resists damage debuffs of the same type, so yes, applying -res will increase the effectiveness of -dam.
The calculation actually ends up working the same way as for damage - applying a certain % of -res will always increase your damage debuffs by that percentage. If you stick a -30% resistance debuff on someone with 50% resistance (thus dropping them from 50% to 35%), a damage debuff of, say, 30% base would go from 15% to 19.5% - a 30% increase. And, of course, if they didn't have any resistance to start with then the damage debuff would improve to greater than its base value. |
It doesn't work this way because -res debuffs always work off your undebuffed values. The strength of the debuff is calculated before the -resist is applied.
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I know that -res debuffs don't improve other -res debuffs since it's calculated off the unmodified resistance, but are you saying that -damage debuffs are also calculated off the unmodified resistance? I was under the impression it didn't work that way.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
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Yeah. I don't think I can explain it very well since the whole thing doesn't make 100% sense to me either. I'm not sure if Arcana would be cool with me posting the PMs so I let them know about this thread. Hopefully they can shed a little light on the subject.
Paraphrasing from one of the PMs, -DMG can't increase the strength of -RES because mechanically there's no such thing as -RES. You don't really have resistances so much as strengths to a given damage type. -RES debuffs affect the targets strength and are affected by the targets resistances.
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Hmm. Are we actually talking about the same thing here? It sounds like you're talking about the damage debuff making the *resistance* debuff stronger - I was looking at it the other way, the resistance debuff making the *damage* debuff stronger. I think I'm going to do some experimenting when I get home today.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Quote:
I remember something like this happening a long time ago when I made a Dark/Sonic Defender. If I had a mob affected with Darkest Night and then added the -Res from the Sonic attacks the damage from his attacks would drop further. I assumed it was something to do with the mobs resists resisting the -Dmg debuff and therefore the Sonic -Res allowing more of the debuff to work. Or something.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Hmm. Are we actually talking about the same thing here? It sounds like you're talking about the damage debuff making the *resistance* debuff stronger - I was looking at it the other way, the resistance debuff making the *damage* debuff stronger. I think I'm going to do some experimenting when I get home today.
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At that point I think I got a headache, either from trying to remember how damage and resistance interact in this game or possibly from the Sonic attacks and went to play another alt
Having tested it in the past on my Dark Defender, I'll confirm that (unless it's changed lately) -Res will amplify the effects of -Dam i.e. if you use Tar Patch you get more out of Darkest Night.
-Dam doesn't do anything to the effects of -Res though - using Darkest Night will have no effect on Tar Patch.
Substitute Heat Loss and Melt Armour in the above as appropriate.
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Yes: -DMG on the target does not do anything to -RES on the target. -DMG reduces the damage (type) strength(s) of the target, which will affect anything *they* try to do. It will not affect anything done to them by someone else. The theoretical exception is Tanker Bruising: that actually works by granting the target a power whereby they debuff themselves. However, that power is unaffected by strength (buffs or debuffs) so its immune to any -DMG debuffs the target might have at the time.|
Originally Posted by Biowraith
Having tested it in the past on my Dark Defender, I'll confirm that (unless it's changed lately) -Res will amplify the effects of -Dam i.e. if you use Tar Patch you get more out of Darkest Night.
-Dam doesn't do anything to the effects of -Res though - using Darkest Night will have no effect on Tar Patch. Substitute Heat Loss and Melt Armour in the above as appropriate. |
-RES on the target does affect -DMG on the target because -RES on the target affects all effects that land on that target that affect the same attributes. -RES is technically a resistance debuff of all damage types, and -DMG is a strength debuff on all damage types, so if the target has lower resistance for those damage types (attributes) the -DMG debuff will be stronger, as long as it is not unresistable. If an effect is unresistable, note that it is not affected by resistances *including* resistance debuffs.
Just to complete the circle of life, -DMG on you could theoretically reduce *your* -RES effects on your targets except -RES debuffs are essentially always tagged to ignore strength. Otherwise damage *buffs* would make your -RES debuffs stronger, which the devs don't want to have happen. And -RES on you would have no theoretical effect on -DMG debuffs on your targets because that would only affect effects on you, not what you do to other things.
The bottom line is that if a target has -RES, it becomes more vulnerable to effects that land on it. If a target has -DMG, it becomes weaker when it tries to land effects on other things. Both -RES and -DMG tend to be flagged to ignore strength buffing, so no debuff on the *attacker* is likely to mess with those. But since both effects are usually not unresistable, resistance effects on the target can affect them (and in fact straight up damage resistance can reduce the effects of -DMG unless it is unresistable).
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Ah okay, that's what my confusion was. I thought it went both ways, (-res doesn't influence -dam, -res doesn't influence -dam) but its just that -dam doesn't influence -res.
Good to know.
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It looks like Thermal/Beam Weapons could be nice too, since Beam Weapons are supposed to have some -res effects. I think.
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Quote:
Arcanaville, would you be so kind as to explain this relationship formulaically?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Yes: -DMG on the target does not do anything to -RES on the target. -DMG reduces the damage (type) strength(s) of the target, which will affect anything *they* try to do. It will not affect anything done to them by someone else. The theoretical exception is Tanker Bruising: that actually works by granting the target a power whereby they debuff themselves. However, that power is unaffected by strength (buffs or debuffs) so its immune to any -DMG debuffs the target might have at the time.
-RES on the target does affect -DMG on the target because -RES on the target affects all effects that land on that target that affect the same attributes. -RES is technically a resistance debuff of all damage types, and -DMG is a strength debuff on all damage types, so if the target has lower resistance for those damage types (attributes) the -DMG debuff will be stronger, as long as it is not unresistable. If an effect is unresistable, note that it is not affected by resistances *including* resistance debuffs. Just to complete the circle of life, -DMG on you could theoretically reduce *your* -RES effects on your targets except -RES debuffs are essentially always tagged to ignore strength. Otherwise damage *buffs* would make your -RES debuffs stronger, which the devs don't want to have happen. And -RES on you would have no theoretical effect on -DMG debuffs on your targets because that would only affect effects on you, not what you do to other things. The bottom line is that if a target has -RES, it becomes more vulnerable to effects that land on it. If a target has -DMG, it becomes weaker when it tries to land effects on other things. Both -RES and -DMG tend to be flagged to ignore strength buffing, so no debuff on the *attacker* is likely to mess with those. But since both effects are usually not unresistable, resistance effects on the target can affect them (and in fact straight up damage resistance can reduce the effects of -DMG unless it is unresistable). |
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Guess with Tanker bruising and my -dmg use with him, it'll make it more powerful. Or, at worse, people in my party doing -resistance makes my -dmg more powerful. Interesting...
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
Quote:
It's one of the reasons why Kinetic Melee is great on Tankers.
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Originally Posted by StormyDarkness
Guess with Tanker bruising and my -dmg use with him, it'll make it more powerful. Or, at worse, people in my party doing -resistance makes my -dmg more powerful. Interesting...
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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I'm not arcanaville, but *assuming* I'm understanding it right (I think so, after arcanaville's confirmation), I can put it into a formula for you.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Arcanaville, would you be so kind as to explain this relationship formulaically?
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As far as I understand it, the final damage debuff on a target can be calculated as:
Final damage debuff = initial damage debuff * ( 1 - base resistance + [ resist debuff * (1 - base resistance) ] )
and the debuff strength is calculated individually for each damage type. Basically, it's 'figure out total resistance debuff, since resistance resists resistance debuffs, then subtract that from the base resistance to get the current resistance, then use *that* to figure out how much the damage debuff is resisted'.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
The thread seems to have switched topics, but in response to the OP, you can actually check these numbers in game. When viewing power details, at the top of the window it'll say something like "POWER as used by level X ARCHETYPE". If you click the archetype you can just switch to defender and see the effects.
I've done a few searches and I can't seem to find any information. I'm trying to decide if I want to wait for I21 to start a new thermal/fire def to run with my friend, or go ahead and just run a fire/thermal cor with his tank.
Does anyone have any numbers as to the differences?