Blasters surpurflous?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-11 23:09 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Well I suppose we look at data in different ways. Somebody tells me that from 1-49 this is so, and at 50 that is so, my first thought is the data is undersampled/ or reported to be a good representation of what is going on.|
Originally Posted by Cyclone_Jack
Apparently sarcasm and humor is lost on you.
Truth is, yes, Blasters go from the number 1 played AT to the number 3 AT in one level and only for 1 level. Why do you think that is? Because they suddenly have a huge drop in performance in that one level? I find that very hard to believe. From my observation, the reason is quite simple. Blasters do not farm as well as Scrappers or Controllers. |
Here is an easy to read description of the effect.
http://redwood.berkeley.edu/bruno/npb261/aliasing.pdf
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The data was released by the Devs just a few months ago. I don't think I'd call that under sampled. Even if we remove the 1-49 data from the equation and look specifically at L50 data, Blasters being the #3 played L50 AT in the game, after Scrappers and Controllers, tells me that they aren't nearly as bad as you claim them to be, nor are they as superfluous as the OP claims them to be. Now, if Blasters went from the #1 AT to #6 or lower, then you might be on to something. But to go from #1 to #3 isn't that bad.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Well I suppose we look at data in different ways. Somebody tells me that from 1-49 this is so, and at 50 that is so, my first thought is the data is undersampled/ or reported to be a good representation of what is going on.
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-= idspispopd =-
[size=1]Arc ID: 3155 - Project Prometheus (Seeking Feedback, now with less invalidation)[/size]
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I would agree that Blasters have more flexibility in the escapee phase. My Controller that I have run through there does great on holding the minions, but it's frustrating for him to drop lieutenants, at least at times. My Fire/Fire Tank does great on the path or at the doors, of course, but the lag does make tracking down targets on the run more annoying. My Peacebringer should have similar flexibility, but that's hampered a bit by shapeshifting taking far too long when it's laggy.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Above all else my blaster has far more flexibility than any melee character I could bring to that situation. I can shoot AoEs at a door constantly and still react to runners passing behind me if a leak develops. I can shift to being a floater far more easily and help different groups that might be having problems. I can cover far more area, and I can shoot at a larger number of targets overall, and I have plenty enough damage to kill them when I do before they pass me by. Nothing in my experience suggests anything other than in terms of shooting runners where ever they pop out from or where ever they are going, Blasters as a group will have the best overall performance.
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It is a pocket case, but it is one that is applicable to other situations.
I'm not even sure why popularity is being discussed. Every AT can't be at the top of the heap, and as long as people enjoy playing each one, things are okay. Yes, you can argue about performance numbers beyond that, but debating popularity means squat, especially if it's Blasters not always being at the number one spot.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I can't believe this flame war is still going on. Look this same sort of BS, sorry but that is what it is, has been going on in one form or another since they announced Going Rogue was going to make it possible to switch sides. And I quote (sort of):
With GR and side switching why would anyone play a TANKER when they can play a Brute
With GR side switching why would anyone play a Scrapper when they can play a Brute.
With GR will anyone even play Defenders again now that they can be Dominators of Corruptors
Pardon the response but YADA YADA YADA YADA
Maybe my PROBLEM is I like to play the game not spend hours checking combat logs and adding up columns of numbers to determine exactly how much damage any one of my characters is doing. I PLAY them and if I am having fun and they are doing well then in my mind they are fine.
We have, currently since who knows what the future may hold, 14 different ATs we can play and there is nothing wrong with any of them. Some required some tweeking.. Stalkers are much better now that they have been buffed than when I first tried them years ago as an example.
For pure damage nothing outshines a Blaster. The question of why would I want want on my team when a scrapper or Brute requires less attention from team mates is irrelivant. Maybe if more people learned what it means to be part of an actual TEAM they'd understand.... Some of the insanity I have witnessed on Lambda and BAF trials shows that far too many seem to think they can ignore instructions and just do whatever the heck they please and then can't imagine why the trial failed. Okay a Blaster doesn't have defense just pure damage.. well gee we have buffer/healer ATs out there and now almost everyone can BUFF and DEBUFF with their incarnate powers so .... part of your JOB on the team is to help keep your team mates alive. I have a BLASTER that took rebirth and once every 2-3 minutes I will make sure I am in position to benefit as many of my league mates as possible and hit the button then watch 750 points of heal spring up above everyone, including my own character's, head. I am not even a traditional Support type AT and I am still willing to do what i can to help keep my team healthy and in the fight.
I have watched Tanks or Brutes die on BAF runs trying to taunt NS or Siege into position and I move forward and with one long range snipe she comes running while they are on their way back from the hospital. That's called picking up the slack and helping the team.
Instead of arguing back and forth for 11 or more pages on if this AT or that AT is worth playing .. maybe we should try spending some time trying to educate players how to actually be a productive member of a team. When they learn how to do that stuff like this happens more often:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=265813
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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Brutes got a nerf just before GR, Tankers got a buff.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
With GR and side switching why would anyone play a TANKER when they can play a Brute With GR side switching why would anyone play a Scrapper when they can play a Brute. With GR will anyone even play Defenders again now that they can be Dominators of Corruptors |
Defenders also got a buff.
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1st when the data was released, has nothing to do with weather or not there is sufficient data points to paint a meaningful picture. Looking at just the level 50 data is even less informative.
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Originally Posted by Cyclone_Jack
The data was released by the Devs just a few months ago. I don't think I'd call that under sampled. Even if we remove the 1-49 data from the equation and look specifically at L50 data, Blasters being the #3 played L50 AT in the game, after Scrappers and Controllers, tells me that they aren't nearly as bad as you claim them to be, nor are they as superfluous as the OP claims them to be. Now, if Blasters went from the #1 AT to #6 or lower, then you might be on to something. But to go from #1 to #3 isn't that bad.
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Brutes got a buff just before GR, Tankers got a nerf.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Brutes got a nerf just before GR, Tankers got a buff.
Defenders also got a buff. |
Defenders also got a nerf.
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
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Originally Posted by JayLeonHart_EU
Brutes got a buff just before GR, Tankers got a nerf.
Defenders also got a nerf. |
You should chat with Dechs
Edit if you can find a third they can be the march hare.
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That's... news. Do you mean the adjustments to Fury for Brutes and their damage values? You could call those a nerf or an evening of power with Scrappers and a way to better maintain Fury. And Tanks haven't been nerfed in... ages. Taunt getting a -range component, and then Bruising and the HP cap increase just before GR are the two more recent buffs to the AT as a whole.
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Originally Posted by JayLeonHart_EU
Brutes got a buff just before GR, Tankers got a nerf.
Defenders also got a nerf. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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And this is why I use |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
That's... news. Do you mean the adjustments to Fury for Brutes and their damage values? You could call those a nerf or an evening of power with Scrappers and a way to better maintain Fury. And Tanks haven't been nerfed in... ages. Taunt getting a -range component, and then Bruising and the HP cap increase just before GR are the two more recent buffs to the AT as a whole.
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so much, since humour is hard to convey via text.My post was simply to highlight how meaningless the statements AF made were, without saying what the buffs/nerfs were.
Ah well, win some...
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
I couldn't give a damn what's in team.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
I can tell off the top of my head
A single blaster will outdamage any single corruptor or defender, almost every time, its possible some real outliers might tie up, but thats not what we are talking about here. Once you get to about 2 or 3 corruptors or defenders, it shouldnt really too much the buff set they are all about balanced, mostly.. sort of. Blasters will fall behind the cor/def team, because of the stacking effect, and the more you stack, the better it gets, this has been known for years. So when you are making a TF/trial, whatever. Add a buff/debuff always is a better value given the choice between the two because they make 7 other players better. So all you have to do is give a shout for xxxxx tf buff/debuff needed, even if you have to take a blaster to fill it out, it still stacks your buff/debuff. |
If I totally agreed with that comment, then all ATs are superfluous, except Defenders. They have the best buff/debuff numbers in the game. And igf it all comes down to buff/debuffs, they win. Nobody else has the buff/debuff set as a primary and the defender level numbers. And now defs are getting fire as a blast set. It's an all rad/fire world now, and the other ATs are just allowed to hang out in it as long as the defenders care to keep them around.
Oh, I guess I do totally agree with your logic. The key thing here is, the other ATs are allowed to stay and be different because
1) Other people like to play them..
2) Most defenders players even occasionally want a change of pace.
:P
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Okay, thanks for clarifying. I've given up trying to shoot down some of the "Blaster are the weakz0rz" people around here because of how off base they can get, so I can appreciate your thoughts.
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Originally Posted by JayLeonHart_EU
And this is why I use
so much, since humour is hard to convey via text.My post was simply to highlight how meaningless the statements AF made were, without saying what the buffs/nerfs were. Ah well, win some... |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Actually, a lot of these are pretty good ideas (except I'm not sure about VS, since I can't puzzle out what you're referring to), but, I wanted to jump on one particular idea of yours and perhaps even expand on it.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
That being said, there are still many, many things that could be done to improve the blaster state without making them just like the other ATs.
Nukes that don't crash (maybe a modestly faster recharge as well). They could get a bonus to their move speeds, the better to facilitate moving in and out of melee. Possibly even added control and friction. Snipes with some advantage (for starters, it could gain a defiance bonus that actually represented its full animation time). Offensive toggles do not shutdown when mezzed, just suppress. Perhaps some +perception/perception debuff resistance to Aim and maybe even Build Up. They could regain the endurance advantage they once had over other ATs. As the AT that is designed to "require" ally support, I think they should be able to benefit from it more than they currently do. While raising the HP cap or resistance cap are ideas along this vein, there are other unique things that could be done that do not infringe as much on making them more like scrappers. The unique things may be harder though, because they would likely require new techs. More specific stuff could be done for individual sets, Swap Ammo could be made to matter more, /Devices could be given a once over, VS could be made less of a hassle, Blazing Aura could be altered, etc. |
Specifically, the movement bonus. Obviously a move bonus isn't considered game breaking, as movement powers are for sale now, and are given away as a bonus to vets in one fashion and two ATs (the heats) in another. Why couldn't blasters be given a real movement edge of some sort? It could also solve one of the big genre related holes the game has. Almost every super hero in the games source material has some sort of travel power. But there are some super heroes that are defined almost entirely by a travel ability. But in this game there is almost no real 'travel' oriented heroes. All heroes mostly have equal access to the same travel abilities, with the same limitations and caps.. Giving blasters some noticable travel edge, like a free travel power with an higher base, higher cap, and/or higher suppressed total could sorta fill that niche market. You'd have to invest some time and build effort to really make that advantage really noteworthy, but it would be a unique edge that you could only get by being a blaster. Wanna play the fastest runner in the world, then you'd have to start with a blaster AT, etc.
I have no idea what the best workable numbers would be. It would require a lot of thought and testing, etc, but it could easily be a way to give blasters a little more Cool-factor, and a real, specific, numerical edge, something that was uniquely theirs, butthat if well thought out probably wouldn't be game breaking.
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Electric Blast -> Voltaic Sentinel.
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Originally Posted by Madadh
Actually, a lot of these are pretty good ideas (except I'm not sure about VS, since I can't puzzle out what you're referring to)
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Presumably he assumed people would have basic knowledge about the game.
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Originally Posted by JayLeonHart_EU
My post was simply to highlight how meaningless the statements AF made were, without saying what the buffs/nerfs were.
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Indeed, thank you. It is such a great power, but casting it every minute with its three and a half second animation is a bit rough even for me, and I loved the way Kin played before they made the buffs AoE. With Dark Extraction (and old multiple controller pets) it is worth repeat castings thanks to multiple pets, but it is still less often than every minute and one pet can last over 3 minutes. VS is just annoying to use. Gun Drone is arguably worse, but for some reason VS bothers me more.
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
Electric Blast -> Voltaic Sentinel.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Ah yes, thanks for clarifying. I find it SO annoying that I tend to forget it's there.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Indeed, thank you. It is such a great power, but casting it every minute with its three and a half second animation is a bit rough even for me, and I loved the way Kin played before they made the buffs AoE. With Dark Extraction (and old multiple controller pets) it is worth repeat castings thanks to multiple pets, but it is still less often than every minute and one pet can last over 3 minutes. VS is just annoying to use. Gun Drone is arguably worse, but for some reason VS bothers me more.
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To paraphrase Chris Tarrant "It's only easy if you know the answer"
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Originally Posted by rsclark
Presumably he assumed people would have basic knowledge about the game.
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@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
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Well I suppose that uniquely qualifies you to comment on team composition.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I couldn't give a damn what's in team.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
"Fixing" blasters takes away a big element of their current gameplay, reliance on teammates (or an expensive IO build and good inspiration use). It is tough to reconcile a gameplay element that is as far out of "balance" as blasters, but I think it is kind of cool.
That being said, there are still many, many things that could be done to improve the blaster state without making them just like the other ATs. Nukes that don't crash (maybe a modestly faster recharge as well). They could get a bonus to their move speeds, the better to facilitate moving in and out of melee. Possibly even added control and friction. Snipes with some advantage (for starters, it could gain a defiance bonus that actually represented its full animation time). Offensive toggles do not shutdown when mezzed, just suppress. Perhaps some +perception/perception debuff resistance to Aim and maybe even Build Up. They could regain the endurance advantage they once had over other ATs. As the AT that is designed to "require" ally support, I think they should be able to benefit from it more than they currently do. While raising the HP cap or resistance cap are ideas along this vein, there are other unique things that could be done that do not infringe as much on making them more like scrappers. The unique things may be harder though, because they would likely require new techs. More specific stuff could be done for individual sets, Swap Ammo could be made to matter more, /Devices could be given a once over, VS could be made less of a hassle, Blazing Aura could be altered, etc. |
I think you have missed a few things. The original design of blasters was that they were supposed to get trashed on a regular basis. I have no idea why that would have been considered a good idea, but I also have no idea why the lead developer would tell blaster players to leap off a building before fighting.
The simplest thing to do by way of correcting blaster problems would be to just correct the kluge that was defiance 2.0. Instead of having a mini fury on an AT that has trouble surviving, the bonus damage should be averaged and added into the base damage modifier for the AT. This would at least be consistent with blasters trading passive survivability for damage output.
I see you didn't mention your idea of click mezz protection with Aim and Buildup. 10-20 seconds of mezz protection with those powers brings nice gameplay opportunities for the AT
The snipe, crashing nuke, and offensive toggles that detoggle aren't problems for just blasters. Snipes and defiance is a unique blaster problem, but its mitigated by the fact from what I have seen few blasters bother to take the snipe to begin with. Otherwise the crashing nuke, skippable snipes, and damage auras that go away when mezz are all problems that affect multiple ATs. The problems just aren't as apparent on better designed ATs.
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Somebody says "People kept saying the low countries would be flooded out and look that never happened", its really not a stretch to expect that person to at least realize they have put in place enormous flood control projects.
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Originally Posted by JayLeonHart_EU
To paraphrase Chris Tarrant "It's only easy if you know the answer"
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"There were nerfs" != "There were nerfs to the way Fury is generated which for some people lead to less overall DPS and burst damage, therefore there was less of a reason for someone to play a Brute over a Scrapper when GR launched, which is why Scrappers were not made obsolete when it did"|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Somebody says "People kept saying the low countries would be flooded out and look that never happened", its really not a stretch to expect that person to at least realize they have put in place enormous flood control projects.
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Some forum folks assume everyone else reads every patch note. This is what I was driving at - you shouldn't assume specific knowledge like this, despite how "common" you think it should be. (Also, I found the Fury changes to be an overall buff for all of my brutes.)
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
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Originally Posted by JayLeonHart_EU
"There were nerfs" != "There were nerfs to the way Fury is generated which for some people lead to less overall DPS and burst damage, therefore there was less of a reason for someone to play a Brute over a Scrapper when GR launched, which is why Scrappers were not made obsolete when it did"
Some forum folks assume everyone else reads every patch note. This is what I was driving at - you shouldn't assume specific knowledge like this, despite how "common" you think it should be. (Also, I found the Fury changes to be an overall buff for all of my brutes.) |
Granted. I really don't put much effort into most of my replies on this topic. For me its like talking to a young earth creationist, after I have shown them that a volcano has rebuilt itself 4 or 5 times or the eroded strata in the grand canyon whats the point ?
All the creationists do is put their fingers in their ears and start repeating themselves. The CoH equivalent is this http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=265933
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I agree. While I still prefere Scrappers, the change to Brutes was an improvement imo.
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Originally Posted by JayLeonHart_EU
"There were nerfs" != "There were nerfs to the way Fury is generated which for some people lead to less overall DPS and burst damage, therefore there was less of a reason for someone to play a Brute over a Scrapper when GR launched, which is why Scrappers were not made obsolete when it did"
Some forum folks assume everyone else reads every patch note. This is what I was driving at - you shouldn't assume specific knowledge like this, despite how "common" you think it should be. (Also, I found the Fury changes to be an overall buff for all of my brutes.) |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
My Fire/Em blaster can, however. Her arsenal includes RoF, FBall, FBreath, and more than enough ranged damage to tag anything else at 80+ feet, before any of my melee can. Alternate Aim and BU use, and I'll have more sustained damage, too. And though I do things a bit different, I'd also qualify my DP/Fire Blaster.
In actual team practice, none of this really changes. Something so simple as the Blaster/Emp combo, unlocks a ton of offensive potential.