Blasters surpurflous?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-11 23:09 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Better yet, make the Rikti transformation an inherent and make the Monkey Brawl slottable.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I think it should be a complete transformation akin to the Kheldian shapeshifts.
We should get Monkey Brawl and some psychic blasts (all at the lowest possible modifiers), as well as the poisonous gas thing when we (inevitably) die. |
Six-slotted Monkey-Brawl.
Awwwwriiiiight.
ETA: And then you just KNOW some crazy person's gonna put footage on Youtube of a Rikti Monkey soloing a Rikti Pylon.
Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
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This can easily become a discussion that warrants its own board. The sampling problem is that 2 sample points are simply not enough to reconstruct the population signal, and there is just no way to get around that.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The alias that occurs at level 50 isn't a sampling problem: its a reflection of an actual fencepost in the data. Unless you turn off XP, there's a practical limit to how long you can play a level 1 before it levels and is no longer level 1. Ditto every level up to 49. However, a level 50 can play as level 50 forever. So its entirely possible for an archetype to be very popular from 1-49 and then suddenly downshift to a lower popularity at level 50. In this case, it can happen if Blasters level slower, and then are played less often at level 50 than other alts, once leveling is over. And that can be strongly influenced by the sort of invention-based end game builds that can be made with other archetypes. For example, blasters and scrappers are pretty close in popularity, so it would not take very much at all for the players that play level 50 scrappers a lot to edge them into first place ahead of blasters. The shift from blasters going from #1 to #3 at level 50 is not as dramatic a shift as it might appear. Only one archetype really has to strongly overtake blasters at level 50 given how close blasters and scrappers are, and it just has to be something people like playing a lot more at level 50 with strong invention builds than blasters. Brutes or Controllers, say (in the past, the data suggested that Controllers tended to gain on other archetypes with increasing security level).
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The other problem is we don't know how popularity is defined in terms of these rankings. It could be anything from a simple headcount, to some sort of weighted measure of the time they spend in game.
That is why I described it as undersampled and under reported.
Your scenario is that other ATS get really played when they hit 50, mine is that as content becomes painful for blasters people stop playing them
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Well in the team case the assumption was that there was enough survivability buff, to essentially render the blaster immortal. So you would have to violate the model to argue survivability buff. |
Originally Posted by PoliceWoman
OK, sounds like you agree the damage cap thing isn't valid in the solo case.
Regarding the team case, I see where you're coming from, but if you start considering outside buffs you open a pretty big can of worms. For example if we assume a kin is teamed with the scrapper to always keep him damage capped, couldn't we equally well assume that an empath is teamed with a blaster that keeps Fortitude, CM and AB on the blaster at all times, and throws him an occasional heal? (I don't think this is too outlandish - this is how I buff when I play my empath.) These buffs can make the blaster easily as survivable (or more) as the scrapper, completely negates the END crash from her nova, and lets the blaster use her best AoEs more frequently and for more damage. Of course, steering the argument in this direction really just muddies the waters because suddenly we're arguing whether kin buffs or emp buffs are better, which is pretty far afield from the original blaster vs. other AT comparison. I think it would be cleaner just to consider each AT on its own. Though, thinking about it, a case could be made that blasters benefit the most from team buffs; since they have the highest damage multiplier and effectively no defense, resist or healing, they stand to gain the most from +DMG, +RCHG, +DEF, +RES and +REGEN buffs. |
But lets see
+HP, blasters get the least benefit from +HP of squishies because of the lower cap
+Def, Because of the blasters lower numbers to begin if there is enough to bring them to the softcap,they will get a greater proportional gain than an at, that starts with higher numbers will get if brought to the softcap.
If there isn't enough +def to cap the blaster the AT with the higher base numbers will gain more.
+res, ATs with higher Res caps will gain more the blaster has a 75% cap brutes and tanks have a 90%, some others have an 85% cap.
If its squishy ats, the blaster will gain more because of higher hp if and only if there is enough to put the blaster at the cap. IF there isnt the at with the higher base gains more.
Why do people even worry about this?
Nobody's kicked me from a team for playing my blaster. Just play and have fun. When it's not fun, stop paying and uninstall.
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The point, though, is both scenarios (and the truth is clearly a little of both as I mentioned) perfectly explain the data without assuming a statistical fencepost glitch.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Your scenario is that other ATS get really played when they hit 50, mine is that as content becomes painful for blasters people stop playing them
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Also, we can make reasonable assumptions about how they gathered that data, because we've a) seen how they collect data in the past and b) we know the game has these statistical datamining tools built into the game, so its not being rewritten ad hoc every single time.
The numbers that BaB posted for archetype popularity, plus the statistical data presented by Castle, plus dev comments in the past provide ample description of the basics of the statistical data the devs collect. Statements in things like development diaries going all the way back to CoH Beta have stated these same datamining tools were built into the game at the beginning of time.
Incidentally, the devs focus (or have focused on in the past) on three primary metrics for popularity and frequency measurements: character creation rates per unit time, unique character logins per unit time, and unique characters existing at a moment in time (the last two sliced per combat level, among other things).
I know there are a few secondary ones that indirectly measure play: the reward statistics can report on the amount of time characters are logged in and in-combat and the amount of rewards such as XP or drops they earn per session and per unit time, and from this they can extrapolate playing per archetype per window of time (say, per week or month) if they wanted to.
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What content gets significantly more painful for blasters at 50 than at 49 to warrant a drop to #3 in popularity? Is it not essentially the same content? |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Your scenario is that other ATS get really played when they hit 50, mine is that as content becomes painful for blasters people stop playing them
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As for Op: Play what you like to play. I can't get a blaster past 35. That's not superfluous, that's the AT and I agreeing we don't suit each other.
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It might not be that the content gets harder, it might be that the incentive to keep doing it drops suddenly because you stop leveling at level 50. That's the primary discontinuity at level 50: from level 1 to 49 you're playing for a lot of reasons, but one of them is level advancement. At level 50 that specific reason suddenly and abruptly vanishes. Its not the only reason people play, and its not the only reason to play blasters, but it can have enough of an impact on enough players to shift the popularity of that archetype specifically at 50 downward by enough to alter its placement among the top archetypes.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
What content gets significantly more painful for blasters at 50 than at 49 to warrant a drop to #3 in popularity? Is it not essentially the same content?
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What's interesting to me is not that Blasters fall to #3. What's interesting to me is that even with all the information we have about blasters being the most problematic to play at all levels, they are still as high as #3 even when the reward of leveling them is removed. It suggests that the gameplay reward of shooting at range and generating big floating numbers when you do is significant, and it hints that it might even *be* the fact that blasters are the most risky archetype to play that might be attracting a specific segment of the player population for whom that is a draw.
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Sorry I wrote my reply quickly, wasn't trying to present those as mutually exclusive or in opposition.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The point, though, is both scenarios (and the truth is clearly a little of both as I mentioned) perfectly explain the data without assuming a statistical fencepost glitch.
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Also, we can make reasonable assumptions about how they gathered that data, because we've a) seen how they collect data in the past and b) we know the game has these statistical datamining tools built into the game, so its not being rewritten ad hoc every single time. The numbers that BaB posted for archetype popularity, plus the statistical data presented by Castle, plus dev comments in the past provide ample description of the basics of the statistical data the devs collect. Statements in things like development diaries going all the way back to CoH Beta have stated these same datamining tools were built into the game at the beginning of time. Incidentally, the devs focus (or have focused on in the past) on three primary metrics for popularity and frequency measurements: character creation rates per unit time, unique character logins per unit time, and unique characters existing at a moment in time (the last two sliced per combat level, among other things). |
The problem is once again even measuring login time you don't specifically capture popularity.
In my case, which may be an edge case I have no way to judge, I log in my marketing characters first, and I log them all in every time. These are the characters I actually like the least and I almost never actually play them in terms of doing missions, task forces or trials. 4 Happen to be blasters, it turns out all ATs are equally effective at wentworths. If you looked at my data you would come to really poor conclusions about which AT I was playing because I enjoyed the AT.
Edit Something better might be, the max rewards piled up by AT or max badge count.
Edit: to be clear anything short of solid modeling of at performance will yield dubious results on actual performance.
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That is an excellent and logical explanation. In A_F's case though is the lack of incentive the painful part, or is it that he truly believes that blasters are superfluous and bring nothing to a team that other AT's can replicate just as easily as well as have secondary roles.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It might not be that the content gets harder, it might be that the incentive to keep doing it drops suddenly because you stop leveling at level 50. That's the primary discontinuity at level 50: from level 1 to 49 you're playing for a lot of reasons, but one of them is level advancement. At level 50 that specific reason suddenly and abruptly vanishes. Its not the only reason people play, and its not the only reason to play blasters, but it can have enough of an impact on enough players to shift the popularity of that archetype specifically at 50 downward by enough to alter its placement among the top archetypes.
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| What's interesting to me is not that Blasters fall to #3. What's interesting to me is that even with all the information we have about blasters being the most problematic to play at all levels, they are still as high as #3 even when the reward of leveling them is removed. It suggests that the gameplay reward of shooting at range and generating big floating numbers when you do is significant, and it hints that it might even *be* the fact that blasters are the most risky archetype to play that might be attracting a specific segment of the player population for whom that is a draw. |
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These two draw me to play my lvl 50+ blasters. No pressure! Who expected the blaster to live longer than other teammates? It's just gravy if it happens, and I love it! Adding in the potential survivability upgrades you can get from I/Os and the incarnate content makes playing them all the more rewarding. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It suggests that the gameplay reward of shooting at range and generating big floating numbers when you do is significant, and it hints that it might even *be* the fact that blasters are the most risky archetype to play that might be attracting a specific segment of the player population for whom that is a draw.
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In addition, A meta-game for me is finding the best time to use my melee and range attacks, all the while knowing that I could pick either and/or both in tandem while still being an extreme damage AT. There is a significant intrinsic reward for me, as a vet player of most ATs, to not have to worry about chasing things about (like I'm stuck to their bumper) or whether my DPS is just poor b/c I keep hitting things after they're already defeated. My blasters are usually the teammates that evaporate most of a spawn before the scrapper can find the boss, but if something is defeated after I target it, I just tab+next ranged-power with no slow-down.
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The problem there is that "popularity" here is ill-defined: it means different things to different people. Suppose you had two people playing the game, and one is playing controllers and one is playing blasters. The blaster and the controller are both played one hour a day, every day, but the blaster dies a lot and is permanently in debt. It thus levels only half as fast. In one sense its sort of obvious that both archetypes are equally popular in terms of gameplay, but if you phrase the question in just the right way, you could say that high level blasters are highly unpopular relative to controllers. Because there aren't any, so none are being played. Multiply that by thousands of players, and you could have cases where the number of characters at different levels says one thing, while logins and playing times say something else.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The problem is once again even measuring login time you don't specifically capture popularity.
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I think, though, that when the data was last looked at many different lines of thought were leading to very similar results. In other words, when we say blasters are the most popular archetype from at least 1 through 49, it turns out that it is simultaneously true that blasters are the most commonly created character *and* they are the most commonly logged in character *and* they are the archetype that is most common at every level range (except 50) *and* they are the archetype that is played for the most accumulated time (below level 50). At least, that was my interpretation of the results the last time around when they were discussed. So I believe most or all the factors point to the same conclusion, which makes the notion that it could be skewed by perspective unlikely.
Its trickier to make statements about, say, who is *least* popular, or who is played for the least amount of minutes, that sort of thing, because there is less statistical agreement there: it depends on your definition of least popular.
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That was my shtick for six years playing an energy/energy blapper. In I19 I decided to make a funky range-focused speed demon (even though speed is less advantageous to energy blast) because of all things I really liked just shooting non-stop in the Infinite Freem mission, without needing the short ranged Power Burst attack. But focused so much on pure recharge (including slotting FF procs in all energy blast attacks) does sacrifice enough blapper features to make blapping now significantly more hazardous than it was in the past.|
Originally Posted by VashNKnives
In addition, A meta-game for me is finding the best time to use my melee and range attacks, all the while knowing that I could pick either and/or both in tandem while still being an extreme damage AT. There is a significant intrinsic reward for me, as a vet player of most ATs, to not have to worry about chasing things about (like I'm stuck to their bumper) or whether my DPS is just poor b/c I keep hitting things after they're already defeated. My blasters are the teammates that evaporate most of a spawn before the scrapper can find the boss, and if something is defeated after I target it, I just tab+next ranged-power with no slow-down.
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I'm thinking of spending some serious inf making an alternate Blapper build just to have it around, because back in the day I used to blap with just SOs and HOs, and then with an I9 build that wasn't remotely optimized for blapping. Today I know a hundred times more about squeezing performance out of the invention system than I did when I9 released, and I'm sure I could make a wicked blapper build.
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I used to love blapping before I/Os as well. Knowing just a bit about how aggro works in this game (which I'd assume you've forgotten more than I will ever know) has always made jumping in next to the tank and scrappers relatively safe even before I/Os. I'd totally go for the extra build since, as you know, I/Os allow you to really get down and crazy, and probably a bit careless. Fun times!
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Sorry missed the initial. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
That is an excellent and logical explanation. In A_F's case though is the lack of incentive the painful part, or is it that he truly believes that blasters are superfluous and bring nothing to a team that other AT's can replicate just as easily as well as have secondary roles.
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The more powers a blaster can pick the less effective defiance is as protection from mezz.
When you only have 3 powers defiance is great, when you have 10 its 30% as great, when you have 20 15% as great. The other problem is that the damage a blaster does ramps up slower than the hitpoints the enemies have.
When you hit your 30s you have enemies that have lots of mezz, more hitpoints, and take longer to kill when mezzed.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The problem there is that "popularity" here is ill-defined: it means different things to different people. Suppose you had two people playing the game, and one is playing controllers and one is playing blasters. The blaster and the controller are both played one hour a day, every day, but the blaster dies a lot and is permanently in debt. It thus levels only half as fast. In one sense its sort of obvious that both archetypes are equally popular in terms of gameplay, but if you phrase the question in just the right way, you could say that high level blasters are highly unpopular relative to controllers. Because there aren't any, so none are being played. Multiply that by thousands of players, and you could have cases where the number of characters at different levels says one thing, while logins and playing times say something else.
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This is interesting from the perspective of how the decision to put in defiance 2.0 was put in.
Let me give you a different scenario. A formula 1 racer will outperform a family sedan on almost all metrics you can think of except maybe fuel economy, how many people it can carry, and how easy it is to drive.
If I sit a typical commuter behind the wheel of a F1 racer, they might not even be able to figure out how to start the car, let alone drive it safely. If they can manage to drive it they likely aren't going to do very well with it.
Now if you had thousands of regular commuters trying to drive F1 racers, from the statistical results, you could very well think that the F1 had very poor performance.
Now don't get me wrong, the performance numbers are clearly against blasters. They give up survivability for ranged damage, not a good trade.
I have played a total of 6 blasters to level 50 and dont remember dying a whole whole whole lot.. I dont remember being in debt all the time.. and I certainly remember being extremely useful on teams...
I think this is less about the AT and more about the player. I have seen pretty much everything in this game played extremely well and extremely poorly...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Wouldn't one expect to see the popularity of blasters drop as they reach higher levels? Not have everything fine from 1-49 then at lvl 50, the popularity drops, and really, not that signifigantly all things considered.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Sorry missed the initial.
The more powers a blaster can pick the less effective defiance is as protection from mezz. When you only have 3 powers defiance is great, when you have 10 its 30% as great, when you have 20 15% as great. The other problem is that the damage a blaster does ramps up slower than the hitpoints the enemies have. When you hit your 30s you have enemies that have lots of mezz, more hitpoints, and take longer to kill when mezzed. |
Another Fan - in spite of all of your diatribes and details it is obvious to even the casual observer - you are not good at playing Blasters.
I used to play Hardcore - you die for any reason except for a disconnect - you are dead for real. I took a Fire/Fire Blaster to 26 before I was defeated. This is not playing stay back and shoot from safety, this is running Positron TF at 14, Synapse at 19, Sister TF and Finally I did die in Citadel and so after the TF I deleted and rerolled.
I used the same name for all of his incarnations Immortalis, he was cursed with being Mortal and yet he was Immortal in that he recalled his previous life.
It is very possible to avoid many pitfalls that you discuss by simply take 3 break frees, 3 purples and the rest greens. Stop by and get more at a contact between missions. Take combat jumping - the immobilize and beat to death issue goes away.
Learn that as the team attacks count in your head - 1,2,3,4.......Boom. Everything will not just turn and Alpha you to death then. I read all your stuff and it just shows you could be given a new Ferrari and you would say it isn't red so the amount of girls you can pickup is nerfed.
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Worse than that, he'd probably wreck it in his driveway. All that power without any control or understanding is a terrible combination.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I read all your stuff and it just shows you could be given a new Ferrari and you would say it isn't red so the amount of girls you can pickup is nerfed.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Worse than that, he'd probably wreck it in his driveway. All that power without any control or understanding is a terrible combination.
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26, so you almost made it through the easy part of a blaster's lifecycle. I suppose for some people almost getting to the starting line is a great accomplishment.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Another Fan - in spite of all of your diatribes and details it is obvious to even the casual observer - you are not good at playing Blasters.
I used to play Hardcore - you die for any reason except for a disconnect - you are dead for real. I took a Fire/Fire Blaster to 26 before I was defeated. This is not playing stay back and shoot from safety, this is running Positron TF at 14, Synapse at 19, Sister TF and Finally I did die in Citadel and so after the TF I deleted and rerolled. |
At least you tried.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Worse than that, he'd probably wreck it in his driveway. All that power without any control or understanding is a terrible combination.
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Speaking of which
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Uhmm no because that thread gives you the numbers a scrapper can put out while being survivable, you can then simply do your calculations for a blaster for theoretical maxes.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Fair enough, I'll get back to you when I've had the time.
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Strato nexus I agree with the person who said the following. Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Well said. Again, I'll get back to you.
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I didn't want to point this out at the time because well, i actually enjoy seeing people learn things for themselves, but you managed to be singularly insistent in both that thread and this thread on a topic by your own admission you don't know the first thing about.
Talk about a lack of understanding
Another Fan do you play Blasters?
If not why do you care?
If so as I said earlier you are seriously doing something wrong. I know of people who got to 50 on Blasters with zero deaths. Yes, Hardcore players who delete if they fail.
I am trying to see what your motivation is? I have one blaster leveling right now and she is 18 with one death - I caught an ambush from behind. I am keeping track of deaths due to me and deaths due to things most players would die to. I started her (Fire/Energy) because of this thread.
So far one death due to me, I didn't check my 6 as all Blasters know you need to do. Now if my team had a teamwipe due to over aggro - I wouldn't likely count that as it got all the ATs melee and control as well. If you like I will be happy to journal her progression and defeats and the cause even if it is due to my blind stupidity.
I run her at 0 x 4 but would it be better if she was at 0 x 1? I will also show team performance if you like?
Hell, I would be glad to take a few people from this thread and level up to say 25? A few blasters of different sorts and we can run as an all blaster team - since according to you it would under-perform.
I would be willing to level another blaster with the powers of your choice. I would be happy to join others in the cause of science.
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That's true, and its been brought up before. However, the balancing metric for the devs is not intrinsic performance but rather performance generated by the average skill level of the average player. So by definition (since its their definition) the devs are datamining the correct thing in this regard.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
This is interesting from the perspective of how the decision to put in defiance 2.0 was put in.
Let me give you a different scenario. A formula 1 racer will outperform a family sedan on almost all metrics you can think of except maybe fuel economy, how many people it can carry, and how easy it is to drive. If I sit a typical commuter behind the wheel of a F1 racer, they might not even be able to figure out how to start the car, let alone drive it safely. If they can manage to drive it they likely aren't going to do very well with it. Now if you had thousands of regular commuters trying to drive F1 racers, from the statistical results, you could very well think that the F1 had very poor performance. Now don't get me wrong, the performance numbers are clearly against blasters. They give up survivability for ranged damage, not a good trade. |
You could argue that this is not the same thing as "true" performance and you'd be correct as far as that goes, but the question becomes whether we balance an MMO based on what the tools do, or what the players do with them. And the answer is, as is often the case, there is a balance between the two. The devs look at on-paper performance, and they look at datamined performance. They try to make reasonable boundaries for maximum optimal performance, but those are not going to be the same for everything. And the try to make everything have reasonably similar in-game performance when played with the average player of our playerbase.
Now, actually by this measure Blasters could have the best theoretical performance, having just as much damage and AoE as any other archetype in the general case, and being able to deploy it from range. What hampers that performance is the inability to consistently stay alive in high density combat. But that's a question of build strength and skill, not theoretical performance. If a single player demonstrates by example they are capable of, say, herding as much stuff as a farming Brute and killing it all just as fast or faster, that would prove that in terms of absolute performance that blaster was just as good as any brute. But it doesn't, at least to my thinking (or the devs) say something interesting about whether the archetype as a whole is properly balanced. Its an edge case that proves the best case scenario, but most players never see or sustain that best case scenario.
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We should get Monkey Brawl and some psychic blasts (all at the lowest possible modifiers), as well as the poisonous gas thing when we (inevitably) die.
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