Stalkers need dev attention even disregading other ATs

1) Stalkers have the same hit points as Blasters and the same cap. Blasters can get to the HP cap through Hoarfrost which is in an epic powerset, but Stalkers have several tools to raise their HP. /WP can cap themselves enhancing HPT and getting ONE accolade, and using Dull Pain and the upcoming Hoarfrost as a 'big heal with a real long cooldown' is not ideal - that's not a balance issue like 'give us 1.25 damage modifier like scrappers', that's downright broken in my view. Khelds have lower base HP but a much higher HP cap because of Dwarf form, Dwarf puts them at 1875 hp (not counting accos or IOs) so it's fair they get a higher HP cap than blasters despite having lower base hp. Stalkers should too. After all, Dull Pain/Hoarfost unenhanced for heal and no accos already puts us at 1685, enhanced it goes to 1918, so a 2409 hp cap like Khelds, SoAs (Crabs have Dull pain) and scrappers wouldn't be balancing, it would be a fix, plain and simple, also allowing us to use the very useful +HP from EA's Overload. I feel it's the bare minimum to ask to the devs, but they do nothing about that.

2) The balance among the AT is all over the place. Toal Focus crits for 253 with a 20 sec recharge time and 18.5 end cost - that's less than M. Grasp (307) and Eagle's Claws (324), both having less recharge and less endurance cost, let's not forget EC has a 100% mag 3 stun like TF. It's just a bit more than Eviscerate which has very low rech/end costs, you get earlier and crits for 248, some tier 7/8 attacks like Disembowel, Crane Kick and Cobra Strike (75% stun) crits for 220, and of course having lower end/rech - CAK is a tier 3 you get at level TWO and crits for 234. So I'd say give TF back the mag 4 stun (I don't see the problem in that, I'm nullifying bosses with my Brute all the time with a very high damaging mag 4 hold - Seismic Smash which I got at level 18 and has half the cast time of TF - hell SS animates so fast, only Char and Dominate are faster holds, and they're mag 3, besides belonging to control sets) or allowing it to crit properly (double damage). Besides, it's not rare I one-shot a red lieut with Seismic Smash because of Fury (easy to maintain at 70% after the Fury changes), and if I don't I can take half the health of a pink boss and HOLD him. In 1.5 seconds.

3) AoE - while I don't think we need whirling swords (would be nice but hard to fit) or EM needs Whirling Hands because it has 2 BIG heavy hitters, some primaries are lackluster without some kind of AoE - Martial Arts, after the Cobra Strike changes, has too many ST attacks, you could replace one with Dragon's Tail.

AoE is also unbalanced among Stalkers because of Burst's 100% chance to crit even after the devs looked at KM again, while those lackluster AoEs (you know, like headsplitter, which you don't really try to get more than 1 or 2 mobs all the time, or cones like shadow maul or jacob's ladder which you usually have to reposition if you want to get 3+ mobs) have only a 50% chance. I think all of the Stalker AoEs should have the 100% chance, maybe with the exception of Spine Burst because of its large radius, but now it only has a 30% chance to crit from Hide - it should be 50-60%. Maybe more, since it has the same target cap as KM's Burst and does less damage. I also think Eviscerate should have its recharge and end raised a bit and go back to being a moderate AoE cone but with 100% chance to crit, since even with SOs it's easy to bring Evis' recharge to 5 secs as it is now. Since EM has two big hitters I don't think it really needs Whirling Hands if EM is buffed a little, but it could replace Stun (also WH does less damage than KM's Burst looking at Brute numbers, so it wouldn't make the set 'uber' by adding it even if they buffed EM again).

EDIT:

4) Hide: Yeah it's our inherent but we have to sacrifice a power for it, so I think it should be like most other stealth powers (Cloak of Darkness and Energy Cloak gives 3.75% base def, Hide gives 1.88% - capping an /EA Brute is easier than a Stalker because of that). Notice that Arachnos Soldier's Cloak suppress like Hide, unlike the powers I mentioned before, BUT the Arachnos Cloak is 3.75% suppressed like these powers. I think Hide should be the same.

There are other things that have been discussed I'd like too, like upping damage modifier to match scrappers and stuff, but I'm trying to focus solely on the balance among Stalker powersets. Because deep down I don't think that those changes would make us on par with Scrappers, but would make Stalkers more enjoyable to play.

I also don't think we should get Quills or other damage auras, I don't want Stalkers turned into 'Scrappers with Hide', I feel we should be a more 'bursty' AT (100% BU for example), leave the DPS and pylon soloing to scrappers.

I hate to get into the 'devs hate villains' argument, but compare the buffs to EA they've done before and how much they are making the set better now that scrappers are getting it. Same goes when they got Electric Armor, my sm/elec Brute is much better now... because Tankers and Scrappers got it. But not even changing the HP cap (again, I consider it a fix, not a buff) makes me think they 'hate' Stalkers more .

I don't think this will do much good.

Besides, you are looking at powers in a vacumn.
You have to look at the sets as a whole.

Well the HP cap I consider a bug to be so low.

I also don't think this will put us on par with scrappers and the like, nor this was the intention of the post, but I don't think I'm looking at the powers in a vacuum. Like I said, I feel MA doesn't need so many STs and EM would be quite fine with some buffs to TF even without WH because of its two heavy hitters. I looked hard at all the numbers on all the primaries, that's why I posted WH or whirling swords would not be strictly necessary with a 100% AoE chance on Slice and Headsplitter, Spin is great too but if Shockwave and Evisc (turned into Aoe) gave 100% chance that'd be good enough to balance between Stalkers. I wrote only about Burst from KM because I feel the set is good with CS giving insta-BU as it is and the rest of the set is good enough overall.

But yeah, wouldn't put us on par with scrappers and the like. I just feel the balance in the AT is a bit wonky considering the primaries. The sets I find that are fine are DM and KM, and it's not like they're overpowered. Spines and ELM are good too but I'd like the 100% aoE chance to crit on TS and Throw Spines (and a raised chance on S. Burst)

The Stalker HP cap could use a boost, but I don't agree it should go all the way to the Scrapper cap. I'd put it at 2000, which is about halfway there from where it is now. I'd rather get another damage boost by adding the PBAoE back in for those missing it and then also bumping the melee mod again to equal Scrappers at 1.125. With our inherent that should put us solidly ahead of Scrappers where we belong BECAUSE we have lower hit points.

If they feel AS is too big a single hit with a 1.125 mod then they can drop its damage scalar a bit on the power itself.

If raising the HP cap is a barrier to any further damage increase, I'd rather leave it as is and give those sets which rely on +HP something else to compensate, like +resist.

Well 2k, 2409, doesn't matter too much. I suggested the scrapper cap because that's what Khelds have so that they can have a Dwarf with 2090 HP using dull pain (PBs) and accolades (and more with IO bonuses, maybe they can get very close to the cap) - that means, their HP cap is so high (and their base hp is lower than Stalkers) so that they can make use of all of it if necessary. So I don't think that correcting something I consider broken like the low hp cap we get (for example at 2k we couldn't max overload) would warrant not getting some balance among the primaries.

I didn't mention the damage increase because it's been discussed to death and I'm comparing only the Stalker differences among them. The HP cap is the exception because I consider it a bug, even a SO'ed WP can't take full advantage of HPT (a perma power) this way.

I hope they do give stalkers some attention. I'll believe it when I see it.

Until then, my stalker can collect dust.

I'm Reiraku, and I support this message.

Why I see your compeling argument fair and just, I really can't see devs doing anthing. Stalkers are what they are and get good benefits for it. AS is a rather special power and pretty much one hits bosses. Im not 100% sure on this either but i think stalkers dont have as much of a taunt element with there powers like scrappers do. I find I dont steal all that much aggro from tanks/brutes like I can with my scrapper's. Scrappers only have the extra element f survivability due to the taunt potential. Also pvp must be taken into account aswell. Im not sure if the devs can suppress certain aspects of pve survivability like hp caps for pvp. The only reason I have ever survived stalker gang ups was because of capped hp on my scrapper.

IIRC they can only change things that specifically target players.
But then again PvP has diminishing returns where PvE doesn't.

Honestly I wish PvP could be disregarded completely as to me it feels like that's the primary reason why Stalkers are stuck where they are.

untoldhero, you probably haven't played a Stalker at higher levels. I may be wrong of course saying you don't have a high-level Stalker, but at 30+ you're lucky to one-shot an orange LT with AS (if he doesn't resist your damage and using BU - you're not shaving half a pink boss' health, sorry, unless he's weak to your damage type, but in this case a scrapper or Brute would just breeze through mobs with AoEs).

Anyway the devs care about pvp less than Stalkers, and if you looked at the l33t pvper forums (I was never one, although I had an ice/psi permadom who got her fair share of kills, so fun killing tanks because it made them mad, but now my main tools on the toon, which I took 3 months to purple out, slows and hold, are useless in PvP). That's why all the Ice/EM tankers are obsolete too, defense is a joke in pvp and etc.

And well let's see how you survive a gang up of psi/em blasters now. As I was saying, the pvp-only crowd used to say that Stalkers weren't that big of a deal once you learned how to move. I did some arenas on my Ice/Psi and got AS'ed only when somebody else used Glue Arrow on me or something like that. It's not like you imply, 'one shot bosses' or 'kings of PvP' - my dom till i12 got a lot more kills and interesting duels than my EM/Nin Stalker, and as you said, you were ganged up, while my dom could kill a Stoner on her own. Of course since she wasn't mind/ like everyone else at the time she had her weak spots like /SR toons when defense mattered, I had to run from them, but it was very easy to run from melee. Again I was never a harcore pvper, was getting interested in it because of my domi but then... i13 came. Also, if you were ganged up by Stalkers you probably weren't moving enough, I'm not blaming you or anything because when I began pvping in Sirens I got AS'ed all the time.

I just don't see the point in having powers in your primary powersets that can't give you the full benefit like it does for everyone who share them (Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, Kheldians, Crabs, even Banes). You'll only reach Scrapper cap all the time if you manage to get perma DP and accos and hp bonuses - with Stalkers you don't even need to have a DP-like power unless you are using as big heal with a disgusting recharge on the SO game, with IOs and accos it's not difficult to cap any Stalker so it's just working wrong. Why have HPT, DP, Hoarfrost, the +hp in Overload when you can't make use of it?

I'm not taking pvp into account, and even if I were, I don't think there would be any significant change - ok Thunderstrike would crit 100% of the time and TF would hit harder, but that just shows the sad state of pvp nowadays (people saying they prefer using Thunderstrike with the 50% chance to crit because it hits harder than AS due to animation times - I think, I saw a pvp'er I knew well write that in the forums).

I completely disagree with your argument that just because Stalkers don't have taunt auras (which only /Invul and /Shields have decent ones on Scrappers) they should be gimped and getting less than their +hp powers are meant to do. Yes threat level and damage can steal aggro from a Tanker but I used to do that with my fire/fire blaster too, and blasters have a threat level of 1 like all squishies (Stalkers and epic ATs have 2, except PBs and WSs in Dwarf which have 3, same as scrappers - Brutes and Tankers are threat 4).

Also, bear in mind that since damage plays a part in stealing aggro (that's why I stole aggro all the time with a fire/fire blaster), if your scrapper has a taunt aura and high damage, let's say a fm/sd, you'll steal aggro from a tanker basically all the time. And since you mentioned yours have capped HP maybe it's an invul? Also strong taunt aura, less damage than a /SD (AAO) but also capable of stealing aggro from a Tanker a lot of time. A regen can already do that, but a scrapper with a taunt aura+high damage has to be careful if he's not sturdy enough, I know my fm/sd died a lot of times when in SOs because everyone went after her after a FSC, unless the Tanker spammed taunt (which they never do of course, that's a waste).

That doesn't justify by any means getting at most 400 hp from powers that were supposed to give you close to or more than double. Even if they applied all the changes I suggested (upping Hide's def, 2kish HP cap, 100% AoE crit from Hide) I don't think they would get close to balanced with scrappers who get more AoEs and 100% +dam from BU.

I kind of aggree with the OP in that they need some attention....though i think Stalkers need to do a tad more damage(like alot more as in at least more then a controller or someone not specialized to assassinate targets) and have some better defenses and resistances......also need to get their accuracy raised.

Just how many times does someone have to miss with a supposed assassin anywise?
I think all my Stalkers suffer from that same low accuracy too.....weird how that works out.

I suppose it doesnt help that there are things that actualy deflect your hidden attacks now too....

Right now i dont know which i find more irritating.....trying to do a big hit on something out of hide and missing or trying to do a big hit out of hide and it gets deflected and you get attacked by everything.....>_>

Does make me laugh though.....there you are literaly point blank right next to the enemy and you need to roll to hit...the enemy isnt actively defending or anything....yet you still have to roll to hit.

LMAO...that always makes me laugh when i think about it......i thought it would be funny if they for some special occassion put that in for doors you open and other things......there you are clicking on the door....oh and you miss...that would be real funny.....irritating after a while but funny....imagine at the auction house.....you try to make a bid...but miss....maybe miss like 3 times in a row like stalkers do...or how about with the team invite button....they invite you....you click...but miss.........ok sory i got on a tangent

Well Kitty I didn't go into the damage modifier thing because since everyone complains about comparisons with other ATs' damage (well scrappers mostly), I wanted to focus on Stalkers, and draw attention to the unbalanced aspects among the powersets (Burst doing 100% damage even after revisiting KM, but all the other AoEs are 50%, Spine Burst is 30%).

Well accuracy was never an issue on any of my Stalkers, just like any other toon. Look at CoD, Mid's, in game numbers, it's all the same as scrappers and others (more native acc in weapon sets and powers like Concentrated Strike on all ATs that have it, for example). It just hurts a lot more missing an AS because of setup time (and usually activating BU before), that's why you might notice it more, but at least in the last Stalker 'buff' missing an AS didn't take you out of hide. Stalker acc is just the same as others, while thematic that they could have more native acc (precision killer and all) I don't think it'd make a lot of difference after SOs.