Let me control the effects of *MY* powers such as knockback using null the gull.
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-07-01 22:16 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Not at all. But the arguement of "Dual Pistols can turn off it's knockback so Energy Blast should beable to turn off it's KB" is a stupid comment.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I hope you are being sarcastic. "No one should say anything I don't agree with" is kind of a ridiculous stance (even if its the default one on the suggestions forum).
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DP doesn't turn off it's knockback. It has the option to switch it with another, many in fact, secondary effects. That's it's whole thing. Switching secondary effects.
Saying "let me turn off EB's KB" is one thing. Saying "DP can do it so let EB do it" you might as well say "DP can switch it's secondary effects, let me switch the secondary effect of any and all powers"
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Actually, I've long thought about suggesting IO sets that include a damage-type conversion enhancement...rather than a simple "Chance of"|
Originally Posted by That_Ninja
Also, I want my MA to do psychic and toxic damage instead of smashing.
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but don't know enough about their coding to know if its feasible
though given that that's probably more feasible than my wish for a multi-armed male and female models...
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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Wouldn't you rather make it all Toxic? There's defense against Psychic. None versus Toxic |
Originally Posted by That_Ninja
Also, I want my MA to do psychic and toxic damage instead of smashing.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Not at all. But the arguement of "Dual Pistols can turn off it's knockback so Energy Blast should beable to turn off it's KB" is a stupid comment.
DP doesn't turn off it's knockback. It has the option to switch it with another, many in fact, secondary effects. That's it's whole thing. Switching secondary effects. Saying "let me turn off EB's KB" is one thing. Saying "DP can do it so let EB do it" you might as well say "DP can switch it's secondary effects, let me switch the secondary effect of any and all powers" |
Yeah yeah yeah. If you don't like it, whatever, but calling it "stupid" is just so much posturing. Nice slippery slope there at the end too. If Energy Blast could toggle its knockback it would mean exactly that: Energy Blast could toggle its knockback. Things are the way they are until they aren't. The game didn't self destruct when other sets got changes and buffs, and it definetly does not mean every set has to change because one did. If they wanted to justify the set getting this ability all they'd have to say is "EB gets this now because the tech didn't exist when it was created." If they don't, whatever, but don't act like anyone who disagrees with your logic is an idiot.
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I didn't say anyone who disagreed with my logic. I'm saying stop comparing DP ability to switch effects with allowing it for EB.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Yeah yeah yeah. If you don't like it, whatever, but calling it "stupid" is just so much posturing. Nice slippery slope there at the end too. If Energy Blast could toggle its knockback it would mean exactly that: Energy Blast could toggle its knockback. Things are the way they are until they aren't. The game didn't self destruct when other sets got changes and buffs, and it definetly does not mean every set has to change because one did. If they wanted to justify the set getting this ability all they'd have to say is "EB gets this now because the tech didn't exist when it was created." If they don't, whatever, but don't act like anyone who disagrees with your logic is an idiot.
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And then the suggestion doesn't even take into the effect that it costs DP a power to do it, but the post then goes on to say, "Hey let's do it at NtG and do it for free"
Maybe instead they could make the suggestion of...allow us to replace Aim with a toggle power that lets me turn off KB.
Then they lose Aim.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The devs already confirmed to me that something like this would work, but for a variety of reasons they don't want to do it.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
After thinking about this, I think there might be a relatively easy* way this (turning off KB) could be done. Modes.
Fiery Embrace enables a Mode that allows your attacks to apply an extra bit of Fire damage, a mode could be added to Energy Blast(and various other powers, which could be done on a case by case basis) where all the mode does is add the Knockback effect. Then a method of enabling/disabling the mode could be added to Null. Have the mode default to ON. *Standard Code Rant |
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I find the argument that Energy Blast should never lose its knockback lest it lose its entire secondary effect in the process. Are we saying the knockback in Energy Blast makes the set weaker and actually lowering it all down to 0.67 would make the set too strong? Because that's the only argument (aside from Standard Code Rant) that I can think of.
OK, and the bugging thing. Yes, if you choose to play an Energy Blaster who hasn't turned his knockback into knockdown, you may well run into people who insist you do so, I'd wager a bet that you'll run into just as many people RIGHT NOW who'll either kick you from the team for doing knockback, or otherwise ask you to not use Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast. Those who ***** about knockback will still ***** about knockback. Nothing gained, nothing lost on that front. But at least the actual Blaster player will be given a choice.
I'm all for this, if technically feasible, and not just for Energy Blast. I'd pay money to turn off the hideous knockback in powers like Bonfire and turn that into Knockdown ala Ice Patch. I'd also pay money to remove Repel effects, such as those of Hurricane. The more options we have, the better, I say. At least in this regard. That ship has already sailed with Null the Gull's introduction.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I find the argument that Energy Blast should never lose its knockback lest it lose its entire secondary effect in the process. Are we saying the knockback in Energy Blast makes the set weaker and actually lowering it all down to 0.67 would make the set too strong? Because that's the only argument (aside from Standard Code Rant) that I can think of.
OK, and the bugging thing. Yes, if you choose to play an Energy Blaster who hasn't turned his knockback into knockdown, you may well run into people who insist you do so, I'd wager a bet that you'll run into just as many people RIGHT NOW who'll either kick you from the team for doing knockback, or otherwise ask you to not use Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast. Those who ***** about knockback will still ***** about knockback. Nothing gained, nothing lost on that front. But at least the actual Blaster player will be given a choice. I'm all for this, if technically feasible, and not just for Energy Blast. I'd pay money to turn off the hideous knockback in powers like Bonfire and turn that into Knockdown ala Ice Patch. I'd also pay money to remove Repel effects, such as those of Hurricane. The more options we have, the better, I say. At least in this regard. That ship has already sailed with Null the Gull's introduction. |
I don't typically say it will likely never happen... but it will likely never happen with Bonfire without major changes to that power. Bonfire is an autohit knockback. It is therefor 92% more likely to hit per pulse than the next highest chance, Ice Slick, which has just 8% per pulse. They'd have to drop the chance waaaaay down to keep Fire Control in line. The most likely number would be around 3% per pulse (which is what Liquefy has). But it would be a huge buff to a power that clearly would not have been put in a Blaster APP if it were known it would become a mainline control power. It is already extremely effective for that AT.
Agreed with Samuel_Tow.
I wish Kheldians didn't have so many knockback powers. 
I made my warshade because it looked cool; I didn't know anything about the powers other than what they looked and sounded like - aesthetics are what I base my characters on, and I figure out the mechanics as I play. Then I found out the vast majority of my powers did the very thing I hate seeing other people do: throw enemies all over the room. No other secondary effect is both so prevalent in the sets it's in and so disruptive to a team.
It's something that really never should have been put in more than one attack per set; or one attack that always has it, and for the other powers it's only available after using a power, maybe like "Intensity: Certain powers have a chance for knockback for the duration of this effect." Doing this retroactively is probably even less likely than the Null the Gull path, and it's sad that they've considered it, found it feasible to some degree, and rejected it.
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Sure, fine. Although I could argue with that, I won't. It's a logical assumption and I'll leave it at that.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I find the argument that Energy Blast should never lose its knockback lest it lose its entire secondary effect in the process. Are we saying the knockback in Energy Blast makes the set weaker and actually lowering it all down to 0.67 would make the set too strong? Because that's the only argument (aside from Standard Code Rant) that I can think of.
OK, and the bugging thing. Yes, if you choose to play an Energy Blaster who hasn't turned his knockback into knockdown, you may well run into people who insist you do so, I'd wager a bet that you'll run into just as many people RIGHT NOW who'll either kick you from the team for doing knockback, or otherwise ask you to not use Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast. Those who ***** about knockback will still ***** about knockback. Nothing gained, nothing lost on that front. But at least the actual Blaster player will be given a choice. I'm all for this, if technically feasible, and not just for Energy Blast. I'd pay money to turn off the hideous knockback in powers like Bonfire and turn that into Knockdown ala Ice Patch. I'd also pay money to remove Repel effects, such as those of Hurricane. The more options we have, the better, I say. At least in this regard. That ship has already sailed with Null the Gull's introduction. |
But beside that, I still think it caters to 'lazy player syndrome'. Just like you *NEED* stamina instead of learning other methods of endurance management. Or you *NEED* missions in the same zone because you can't be effed with traveling a mile or two. Or you *NEED* not ever be bothered with alert contacts like the inventions guy at the university. It caters to *NEEDING* not learn how to use KB like it was intended or enforcing a tactic of play while ignoring the rest of the game. The same hate people see for AE farmers that ignore the rest of the content is the hate I feel for the old tired herd-&-burn AoE fest the game has become while forgetting/ignoring other interesting and viable tactic built into the game. And you wonder why people get pissy about a lot of the trials? Because the devs have to practically *FORCE* variety down your throat otherwise you'd resort to the same old AOE fest many have turned the rest of the game into.
Knockback is 'hard' and 'disruptive' because you *let* it be. But when you release the whole 'MUST AOE' mentality, how can KB ever be disruptive?
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I disagree with this. I see no problem with sets that do nothing but knockback. Why should it be limited to just one attack per set at most?|
Originally Posted by ScottyB
It's something that really never should have been put in more than one attack per set; or one attack that always has it, and for the other powers it's only available after using a power, maybe like "Intensity: Certain powers have a chance for knockback for the duration of this effect." Doing this retroactively is probably even less likely than the Null the Gull path, and it's sad that they've considered it, found it feasible to some degree, and rejected it.
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Because yyou don't like it? Maybe others do like it.
I think it's great. Some sets you're going to love the animations and hate the effects. Other sets it's going to be reversed.
The secret, is to either live with it, or find one that has both parts that you love.
I don't care for Shields because I consider shields to be a minor roll in super hero comics/modern day setting comics. Nevermind we have a to the past zone. It's a powerset that in comics is limited.
There's more Time Manipulators in superheroe comics, yet we get Shields first.
There's other sets just the same.Hell, they should make a Charged Object throw power set, because there's just as many of them in comics as there are superhero shield users.
I love the mechanical aspect of Shields. I don't play it.
The same is how it works for Energy Blast and Kheldians for everyone else. Don't like it. Don't play it.
I personally will continue to disagree with just being able to shut off EB's or Kheldians KB just because it annoys me (and yes, I've gotten annoyed by KBers before, but now I just accept it and chase the target).
The game, as Leo said, doesn't need to be this "gather in group, release the AOE" game.
But if we're going to go that route and get rid of KB in powers, can we get rid of aggro auras too? That way the enemies can attack the ones who are really the threat based on damage output and debuffing?
Be a little more like the comics I read, where none of them ever do the *grunt and motion with hands to come here* and all of a sudden everyone is on them. Instead they're likely to break off in groups and out number each hero 5 - 1.
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Am I the only one that wants more knockback for my Energy Blaster? The whole "chance for" thing really bites.
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No you aren't my man, I actually made a suggestion months back when I cared that one of the alpha powers should include +KB. I'm also a firm believer that if the target isn't KBed with a set whom secondary is KB is should do extra damage. Some other super hero mmo(can't say which) works like that and I really like it.
I just want my PB to have the knockback on Solar Flare changed to knockdown just like Foot Stomp was..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Knockback can be very disruptive. Sometimes accidental and other times just be an outright *******. (I'm looking at those of you that use bonfire in the middle of rikti invasions)|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
how can KB ever be disruptive?
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This would atleast give you the option of suppressing your knockback when you team with people or turn it to knockdown so you could blast the hell out of stuff without inconveniencing your melee team mates.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
I just want my PB to have the knockback on Solar Flare changed to knockdown just like Foot Stomp was..
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Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
Since Energy seems to be the focus of the knockback complaints, I figure I'd add my two cents.
I don't have an issue with knockback, especially when it's applied to AoE. What bothers me about KB, and on energy blast specifically is that it's unreliable. Any AoE power with a non-total chance to KB will invariably scatter the spawn. Doesn't matter how accurate your power is or how you position yourself, a cone with a 50% chance of knockback will only guarantee that half of the spawn you hit will detach from the other half. That alone is the reason that, while I will cheerfully abuse the hell out of Gale, I don't see myself rolling an energy character anytime soon.
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Knockback, particularly in Energy Blast, is disruptive because it's uncontrollable. If every power did knockback every time like, say, Gale, then I can anticipate it and direct it. But I can't. In fact, if I shoot an Explosive Blast into a crowd of 10 people, I'm virtually guaranteed that some won't get knocked back. It doesn't matter how well I use knockback, it will always scatter enemies when it's AoE, simply because it will affect some, but not others.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Knockback is 'hard' and 'disruptive' because you *let* it be. But when you release the whole 'MUST AOE' mentality, how can KB ever be disruptive?
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Also, dealing lots of damage over a wide area is simply something Blasters "do." It's like chastising a Scrapper for going into melee. Yes, the Blaster can simply choose to not use his most potent attacks... But then why do you even need said Blaster on the team to begin with? What does an Energy Blaster bring to the team that, say, a Fire Blaster or an Assault Rifle Blaster won't bring, but with less of a hassle? Personally, I'd sooner have people not learn how to use their Knockback by not using it than have people not learn how to use their Knockback AND STILL USE IT.
I recall trying to explain to Zombra how to use Gale to knock enemies into walls or into corners and to generally push them together so they're easier to kill en masse. After a couple of missions of him using it willy-nilly and occasionally apologising, we simply agreed that he wouldn't use the power, and the missions became a lot easier. Knockback is a liability far more often than it is a help, and while you may choose to chastise people for not wanting to learn how to use it, I'd personally much rather not have systems in the game that are detrimental to the player and his team UNTIL he learns how to use them.
Finally, knockdown is actually superior to knockback in several ways. Some say enemies knocked back spend longer on the ground. Maybe. Maybe a little while longer. But enemies knocked down are also immune to knockback for a long time after they're initially affected. Pretty much until they get up and have time to attack you at least once. Enemies affected by knocdown, by contrast, are susceptible to more knockdown at all times, either mid-animation or as they're getting up. While knockback may keep enemies on the ground slightly longer, knockdown can keep enemies on the ground indefinitely.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Mitigation Damnit!!|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What does an Energy Blaster bring to the team that, say, a Fire Blaster or an Assault Rifle Blaster won't bring, but with less of a hassle?
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Not even going to bother commenting on the rest...but from my experience with my DP/Fire and Energy/Fire blasters were, when your AoE kb only kb'ed some of the enemies, swap to the nearest targets and use your cones. If still more are standing, use the higher chance ST kb. And whatevers left is most nearly dead.
Yeah, the chance of kb can be annoying but its not disruptive since its doing as advertised...mitigating damage.
Also note: i paired EB with the secondary with the least mitigation...food for thought...
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And you will, of course, be wrong about that.
But we've danced this one before. Let the other kids have a go. |
Okay Bill I'll take a crack at it for you
Let's start by saying I fully understand the reason the KB isn't liked. I too have Tankers, Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers and SoAs that have found themselves running across a room to finish off the guy I was battling after someone knocked them far far away from me. It's not just annoying to you at times it can even be annoying to the person with KB. Nothing ticks me off more than battling some mob on top of a wall, building, or whatever and my KB drops one or more of them over the edge and now I either have to jump down there to finish them, wait for them to get back or just skip them completely.
That out of the way in many cases the reason my Blaster, Mastermind, etc HAS kickback is to help them stay alive. My health points are not as high as your TANK so if I get 2-3 minions in my face because YOUR aggro didn't work or my damage was just so much higher it made them want me more than you I am NOT about to stand there and die just so you don't have to move 20 feet to hit something again.
Now I TRY my best to mitigate the effect.. position myself so I drive mobs into walls or whatever instead of just scattering them everywhere but let's use a Robotic MM as an example.. I can only control my bots to a certain degree and once I say attack they move into range and attack.. I can't control where the bodies fly. Now let's get down to basics... My bots do a good deal of damage and my MM has Dark Miasma so the question is do you want my DPS and my debuff or not. If you want me there to debuff the bad guys I can't do it if I am dead so DEAL with my bots KB.
Now I can and as mentioned do try to control the KB my other characters do but again.. Some of the KB attacks I have are my AoEs and among the best damaging attacks I have. If you invited my Blaster to your team I assume you want me to kill stuff.. if I stop using half my attacks to make the scrapper feel happy am I doing my job as a member of your team.
Oh and lets not limit the effects of KB to blaster, trollers, etc.. I have played with Tanks, Brutes and Scrappers with Shield charge... Nothing I enjoy more than centering my nuke attack, RoA, Full Auto, ect on a mob and then just as I pull the trigger watching the entire mob scatter and if I am LUCKY it hits one minion when I was trying to hit 12 or more. I threw this part in since its almost always the melee troops that gripe and moan about KB both here and in game. So my Archer isn't supposed to use her Exploding arrow because some scrapper may actually have to move to attack but the tank can scatter a mob all over the room with Foot Stomp.
Like just about everything else the Devs have given us KB has a function and since I don;t particularly enjoy laying face down on the floor while you stand on my head hitting bad guys I have no desire to run to Pocket D so Null the Gull can shut it off.
At one point I actually created a macro for my archer...
"I apologize in advance to my team mates for the bodies I will be scattering around the room with some of my more powerful attacks"
When the TANK can promise me that his taunt will absolutely keep every minion, lieutenant and Boss out of my face then i will consider shutting it off... [short pause] there I considered it and the answer isn't just NO it's H3$$ NO! lol
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I want my Super Strength characters to be able to knock foes back dozens of yards, through any intervening walls.
Or at least into them, resulting in (temporary) craters/divots.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
I wonder how many years it's going to take before people realize Knockback isn't broken, you're just doing it wrong...
Also, no.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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So do Psi Blast and Ice Blast, yet you'll never see anyone complain about Blasters with them. Hell, I haven't seen anyone complain about Rain of Fire or Freezing Rain in years.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Mitigation Damnit!!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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About as many years as it's going to take for people to understand that it is, I guess, if we're sticking to your flawless argument strategy.
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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
I wonder how many years it's going to take before people realize Knockback isn't broken, you're just doing it wrong...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This...|
Originally Posted by Quinch
What bothers me about KB, and on energy blast specifically is that it's unreliable. Any AoE power with a non-total chance to KB will invariably scatter the spawn.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Knockback, particularly in Energy Blast, is disruptive because it's uncontrollable. If every power did knockback every time like, say, Gale, then I can anticipate it and direct it. But I can't. In fact, if I shoot an Explosive Blast into a crowd of 10 people, I'm virtually guaranteed that some won't get knocked back. It doesn't matter how well I use knockback, it will always scatter enemies when it's AoE, simply because it will affect some, but not others.
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That shouldn't be possible. Knockdown and knockback aren't different effects. I'm pretty sure I've knocked enemies back immediately after doing so again.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Finally, knockdown is actually superior to knockback in several ways. Some say enemies knocked back spend longer on the ground. Maybe. Maybe a little while longer. But enemies knocked down are also immune to knockback for a long time after they're initially affected. Pretty much until they get up and have time to attack you at least once. Enemies affected by knocdown, by contrast, are susceptible to more knockdown at all times, either mid-animation or as they're getting up. While knockback may keep enemies on the ground slightly longer, knockdown can keep enemies on the ground indefinitely.
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We'll always have Paragon.
Melee powers with knockdown come in at 0.67 magnitude, which prevents them from causing knockback on even con and -1 enemies.
In comparison, Force Bolt has a magnitude of 18.694.
There's simply no way to equally reduce numbers that far apart with a single catch-all global power or flag.
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