Let me control the effects of *MY* powers such as knockback using null the gull.
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-07-01 22:16 in Suggestions and Ideas
Due to the way knockback works, there is no feasible way of doing a global anti-knockback flag. Edit: Or rather, a variable setting. It's probably possible to do a full "this character is incapable of ever doing any kind of knock* effect" flag.
There are also potential balance ramifications.
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While I'm a bit against it in principle.
If you don't like KB, then don't roll Energy Blast.
However, if they just gave the option of "turn off your knockback" but not turn it into knockdown or knockback. Then at the very least, all you have is a energy blast and nothing more.
But then one would ask, if all you want is energy blast, why not roll Radiation Blast?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I can see it now.
Somehow the devs, after having something heavy hit all of them in their heads, implement this.
Within the hour, we start getting "I turned down/off my Energy Blast/Assault's Knockback, and now I'm nothing but a subpar-damage blaster/defender/etc! Buff us!"
I'll agree with "You can now recolor your powers. If you don't like knockback, reroll."
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Because Energy Blast looks way better
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Originally Posted by BrandX
But then one would ask, if all you want is energy blast, why not roll Radiation Blast?
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I dont think many people roll energy blast for the knockback. Energy looks cool and is fun to use and many anime characters such as characters in street fighter games and dbz use energy attacks.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
While I'm a bit against it in principle.
If you don't like KB, then don't roll Energy Blast. However, if they just gave the option of "turn off your knockback" but not turn it into knockdown or knockback. Then at the very least, all you have is a energy blast and nothing more. But then one would ask, if all you want is energy blast, why not roll Radiation Blast? |
This again would be an optional feature just like everything else on null. If you don't want to turn off your knockback nobody is forcing you to do so
And it gives you a wider variety of powers to use that you normally wouldn't use as much while teaming.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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Those people that roll energy blast because of the cool anime characters...curious, do those anime/DBZ/street fighters have knockback?|
Originally Posted by Noyjitat
I dont think many people roll energy blast for the knockback. Energy looks cool and is fun to use and many anime characters such as characters in street fighter games and dbz use energy attacks.
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It's my theory that, the energy blasts look cool by relation of these characters because of the knockback.
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This again would be an optional feature just like everything else on null. If you don't want to turn off your knockback nobody is forcing you to do so And it gives you a wider variety of powers to use that you normally wouldn't use as much while teaming.
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Not to mention balance. Gale is a huge cone that recharges in 8 seconds, 5 of which the enemy is on their rear. If you don't know how strong Gale would be with KD or KU instead of KB, imagine having a portable corner for your Gale everywhere you go. Or Tornado vs AVs.
Dual Pistols can turn off its knockback.
IMO Energy Blast would be well served by a toggle to shut off kb in its powers at its option. Unlike DP it would not get any extra damage or other effects from this. The KB could be flipped off and on at any time. The reason for this is so that team's can't demand all Energy Blasters show up with KB turned off all of the time. The EB can use when its good for a shot and turn it off when it isn't.
I would not like to see this done this for other sets. KB sometimes really is a penalty or limitation of sorts (as in Bonfire). And IMO having only 1 or 2 powers with KB is different than having an entire set devoted to it.
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Just so this can't keep being used as justification: Dual Pistols can turn off its knockback at the cost of a +ToHit/+Dmg buff click.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Dual Pistols can turn off its knockback.
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I'd actually be okay with having a 'powered down' version of Energy, to be honest- At the cost of doing less damage, you lose the knock effects of your powers. It helps keep everyone where you want them, but at the cost of not having such powerful attacks.
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I'll be happy to instruct them on all the reasons their set is more powerful without the knockback, never you worry.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I can see it now.
Somehow the devs, after having something heavy hit all of them in their heads, implement this. Within the hour, we start getting "I turned down/off my Energy Blast/Assault's Knockback, and now I'm nothing but a subpar-damage blaster/defender/etc! Buff us!" I'll agree with "You can now recolor your powers. If you don't like knockback, reroll." |
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And you will, of course, be wrong about that. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'll be happy to instruct them on all the reasons their set is more powerful without the knockback, never you worry.
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But we've danced this one before. Let the other kids have a go.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Just so this can't keep being used as justification: Dual Pistols can turn off its knockback at the cost of a +ToHit/+Dmg buff click.
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And Energy Blast could do it at the cost of having no secondary effect at all, as opposed to trading it for a different effect.
I support this if it is a global setting where people can choose to turn off all the secondary effects for all their characters or leave them all on. 
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
and meanwhile, I'm wishing my SS brute was capable of more knockback....at 25 all my attacks have at least 1.42 mag KB, but wish I could have more
and really wish haymaker did more kb than punch without reducing punch, but in order to do that, they'd have to increase the base beyond knockdown, which will annoy people
sigh....I'll have to make due with the subpar KB
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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I think this would be the only secondary effect that I personally would want to be able to modify.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I support this if it is a global setting where people can choose to turn off all the secondary effects for all their characters or leave them all on.
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Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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*kicks the forum logout bug*|
Originally Posted by Noyjitat
I think this would be the only secondary effect that I personally would want to be able to modify.
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Now I gotta rewrite this.
Okay, Not happening.
After Null-The-Gull was revealed on Ustream one of the global channels there were a couple other server-level changes proposed and almost immediately shot-down.
- Using Null-The-Gull to change knock-effect
- Using Null-The-Gull to turn off costume buff effects
- The player's level
- The level of the enemy critter
- The enemy critter's resistance to knock-effect
- The enemy critter's protection to knock-effect
- The effect of a team-mate's application of knock-effect
What is unknown is whether or not the existing novedex physics engine can be changed in order to enable the separation of knock-effects, or if it just needs to be replaced. Given that I've been one of the vocal players calling for new physics system that has acceleration exposed through OpenCL, I think it's obvious which solution I favor.
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Now, as to the flip side of the knockback-coin, that is to say the question of whether or not a power that does knock-back be changed into power that does knock-down or knock-up... the subject has actually been addressed by the developers.
At some point there was a forum posting by a developer saying that they had looked at an IO conversion for knock-effect, but had to abandon the idea as knock-behavior just wasn't consistent. Unfortunately, that post is now showing no access so I think it was in a beta section of the forums.
The conclusion would be then that the developers are least open to the concept.
I'm not entirely sure that such a change would be exposed through Null-the-Gull.
If anything, I'd expect it to be exposed through Power-Customization, which is a possibility given that the developers seem to be open to the concept of at least trying it.
One of the suggestions made by another player, a while ago, is that players get a slider when choosing a knock-effect power. Lowering the power's magnitude would also lower other other attributes such as damage and recharge.
I'm not entirely sure the devs would go for such a concept. With the inclusion of Incarnate Powers such as Musculature, Interface-Diamagnetic, and Interface-Reactive, on top of Invention Origin boosts, the DPS / DPA of a power is pretty much... irrelevant. Short of a drastically horrible diminishing return on damage / recharge for knock-effect there would ultimately be little, if no, final play difference at maximum level.
Quite simply, i would not want to be in the office when Black Scorpion, Synapse, and Sunstorm had to hammer out the details of exactly how a knock-effect to power behavior conversion would work... because it sure as hell would not be consistent from power-to-power.
Given that knock-effect conversions would be about as consistent as jello from power to power, my opinion is that the development staff would likely just leave the knock-effect powers where they are. If a power was designed with knock-back, it does knock-back. If a power was designed with knock-up, it does knock-up. If a power was designed with knock-down, it does knock-down.
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Given that I'm running... well... actually pretty long on this response, I won't dive into the removal of costume-buffs unless somebody actually does make a thread on it... which likely is inevitable.
Suffice to say, allowing players to disable the visual effects of costume buffs, such as Thermal Shields, Cold Shields, Sonic Shields, and Force Bubbles... would set the precedent for allowing native-armor types to also likewise turn their effects off...
actually... I just had an idea. I think I'll post it: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=3724998
If they can make a power that makes knock powers stronger like powerbuild up and powerboost I don't see why they can't make another power that does the opposite and weakens them. You pick the option and null puts a debuff on you that lowers knock mag.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
Also, I want my MA to do psychic and toxic damage instead of smashing.
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Different types of knockback or reduced knockback is completely different than asking for different damage types.
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Originally Posted by That_Ninja
Also, I want my MA to do psychic and toxic damage instead of smashing.
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Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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Indeed, however if you want to lose the KB, then you have to lose all the other secondary effects on all your characters.|
Originally Posted by Noyjitat
I think this would be the only secondary effect that I personally would want to be able to modify.
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Naturally, you could only make this change, once a month.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I think this needs to be cleared more, because it needs to stop being said.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Just so this can't keep being used as justification: Dual Pistols can turn off its knockback at the cost of a +ToHit/+Dmg buff click.
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Dual Pistols can turn off it's Knockback, because it's gimmick IS BECAUSE it's gimmick is switching between effects.
Yes, it gave up an AIM power for this, to make room for this power, but that's besides the point.
Just because Dual Pistols can turn off its Knocback doesn't mean all other knockpowers should be able to be turned off or changed on the whim.
If you don't like the knockback, don't roll the set.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I think this needs to be cleared more, because it needs to stop being said.
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I hope you are being sarcastic. "No one should say anything I don't agree with" is kind of a ridiculous stance (even if its the default one on the suggestions forum).
After thinking about this, I think there might be a relatively easy* way this (turning off KB) could be done. Modes.
Fiery Embrace enables a Mode that allows your attacks to apply an extra bit of Fire damage, a mode could be added to Energy Blast(and various other powers, which could be done on a case by case basis) where all the mode does is add the Knockback effect. Then a method of enabling/disabling the mode could be added to Null. Have the mode default to ON.
*Standard Code Rant
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Am I the only one that wants more knockback for my Energy Blaster? The whole "chance for" thing really bites.
Knockback is a commonly complained about thing. I love my energy blast, my bone fire etc but wouldn't it be nice if it did knockdown instead? It would still give me a form of mitigation but would no longer scatter things everywhere. And this would be so much better than other ideas where people suggest enhancements for this. I mean who really wants to waste a precious enhancement slot to remove knockback from a power?
How about giving me the option to change my knock powers into either:
Knockback
Knockdown
Knock up
or no knock at all.
So I can still have knock mitigation if I want it but it doesn't have to be knockback it can instead be knockdown. The suppression of knockback should be completely suppressed too so that if someone else is also using a knockdown power that my knockdown power won't result in higher mag and still cause knockback.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.