Giving the Players what they want: Solo Incarnate Content
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-06-30 10:53 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well said, Sam. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The argument that "People do raids, therefore people WANT to do raids," aside from being a logical fallacy of a pretty obvious nature, is slowly being proved wrong by the many people who are starting to make the counter-argument of "I like to team and I like raids, but I'm getting burned out and I want something else."
What people want is more content. I don't know what Paragon Studios' deal is, but the rate at which they've produced content is somewhere between slow and "mid-air stall." In the past year, we've gotten all of three Trials, two TFs and two arcs, and I21 is promising a new zone that's all of 6 levels in range - 20-26. I don't know if they're holding content back to sell with Freedom or if 3/4 of the studio are working on Freedom content or if they just fired everybody, but I've not seen content introduction this slow during the dark days of the Post-CoV 15. When Cryptic Studios sold the City of Heroes franchise to NCsoft, along with their entire City of Heroes team, I could tangibly feel the re-investment. Suddenly, there were no more talks of "This would take too much work." or "We don't have the manpower to do that." The studio hired new people, stepped on the gas and started not just releasing "biggest bang for the buck" additions, but actually releasing what I call "luxuries" - additions that make the game better but aren't always Issue showpieces or likely to score high on banner ads. We got several ATs revisited and - in my opinion - fixed up, we saw power customization, we saw lots of things of this nature. Even if you didn't like one particular aspect of a new Issue, there was always something else interesting for you. These days it feels like we're back down to 15 people working on the game, picking only the highest-value targets, focusing on only one thing and working as though directed by marketing, rather than good game design. The thing is, what people want is raids AND solo content, and there's no reason that it has to be JUST one or the other. We paid Paragon Studios a significant amount of money recently - $20 for an expansion, $10 for the Booster that came with it, another $10 for the Animal Booster, another $10 for the Steampunk Booster. They should have had the money to work on more than one raid per Issue, so it becomes a question of what, exactly, it is that I'm paying for. Freedom, though, is the most likely answer. --- If you think that what the players want is "raids, raids and more raids," you are provably wrong. Even the people who want raids are starting to ask for other things as well, and more raids won't alleviate these desires. If we keep seeing mostly just new raids, this will only get worse and those browbeating fans of practically anything else will just lose more of their support. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Honestly, I think expanding the Incarnate experience to include a viable solo path is coming. The question is when.
With i21, it's clear the focus was shifted back to the early level game. New tutorial, Atlas/Mercy updates, low 20's zone. Obviously, this work has been put in for the influx of new players we should hopefully be getting when we go F2P.
More troubling to me is that Incarnate (trial) content has outpaced Incarnate rewards. Content shouldn't exceed the rate at which they can give us new carrots to chase. By i21 we're going to have another trial, but no new Incarnate slots to go with it. Like Keyes, I see no real reason to run it. I've been sitting at T4s on the characters I care about for quite some time. By the time they get back to adding more slots, we'll be sick of all four trials.
This makes me angry because the resources and time spent on Keyes and the Underground trial could have been put towards giving people the solo path they want. Variety is nice, but four trials for the same four Incarnate slots we've had since the trials started just isn't necessary at this time, especially at the expense giving players a solo tract.
Rather than giving players four trials to divide their time between, they could have given us two trials and viable solo options; that's variety too.
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/signed
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
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@Redcap
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114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
I'm in the "I want solo/small team Incarnate content" camp.
1. iTrials take a fair amount of time to fill so it can be started. I find the waiting time necessary to fill a league to the starting size wastes a huge portion of my playing time. It often takes longer to put a league together than it does to run the trial. Going solo or forming a small team don't waste my time like that.
2. There is a burn-out factor on the iTrials because there simply aren't enough of them. Doing the same 3 trials over and over and over gets boring. While some of the task forces have Incarnate level rewards, even those are limited in number. They can quickly get boring too. Solo or more small team Incarnate missions can help mitigate the grind of the larger trials.
- B.
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Honestly I'm not sure the devs are ever going to give you a SOLO path that's even close to being competiive. (That is, I expect a solo path to take at least between 15 and 100 times as long as doing the trials)
I *do* think you might get a small-team path though. That seems infinitely more likely.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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I'd say that the PvP and AE camps would happily show you that the devs track record is not so unblemished as you're inferring.
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Originally Posted by Furio
Or, tell the avalanche to continue heading down the slope, and claim responsibility when it does just that.
Seriously. Look at the track record of the dev team, and tell me you honestly don't think there's damn good odds that this concern is already being addressed internally. |
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slight fix|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Gemini
I'd say that the PvP, Base Builder and AE camps would happily show you that the devs track record is not so unblemished as you're inferring.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
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See I like this. It's nice to have an expanding list of trials without feeling like we're on a treadmill running constantly just to stay in one place.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
More troubling to me is that Incarnate (trial) content has outpaced Incarnate rewards. Content shouldn't exceed the rate at which they can give us new carrots to chase. By i21 we're going to have another trial, but no new Incarnate slots to go with it. Like Keyes, I see no real reason to run it. I've been sitting at T4s on the characters I care about for quite some time. By the time they get back to adding more slots, we'll be sick of all four trials.
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Yes, but see the point I make at the end of the post.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
See I like this. It's nice to have an expanding list of trials without feeling like we're on a treadmill running constantly just to stay in one place.
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Variety is nice, but four trials for the same four Incarnate slots we've had since the trials started just isn't necessary at this time, especially at the expense giving players a solo tract. Rather than giving players four trials to divide their time between, they could have given us two trials and viable solo options; that's variety too. |
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I think the best way to expand the current Incarnate system for solo players is to use the existing technology of Tips and such, which everyone likes. Incarnate-active players can find, I don't know, Heroic Intervention or Diabolical Plot missions, themed around the finding of some element of notable power that you must keep out of/retrieve from the hands of evil folk or go get for yourself, based on morality. Each mission includes a Thread as a reward for completion. Get ten of these and you can run a Crisis Mission/Master Plan mission, themed around one of these groups having gotten its hands on something much bigger than usual for heroes, or for villains as one of the many webs you've put out there finally coming to fruition. Complete this once a day for a selected piece of Common Incarnate Salvage, or a random piece with a small chance of uncommon. That way it's much slower than the team-based method, but not to the point of being entirely ineffectual, and offers a method of offlien earning that is both interesting and uses no new technology.
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It doesn't mean either of those things.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
friggin stupid more like. Just because people ARE in pocket D doing the trials does NOT somehow mean they dont want solo incarnate progression. It just means they are resigned to the fact there is NO reasonable solo way to advance their characters.
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Mostly, it means there's people in the D.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It doesn't mean either of those things.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
See I like this. It's nice to have an expanding list of trials without feeling like we're on a treadmill running constantly just to stay in one place.
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I can agree with you on this. More trials does mean less repeating of the same trial. I am still flustered about all the standing around, but it's at least somewhat better.
I am, however, rather frustrated by this system overall in that I feel it is incumbent on developers to build systems based on the resources they have available. If you don't have the resources to build the content necessary to move the system forward, the system needs to be moved forward in another way. You don't build and open Disneyland and only then start thinking about where to place the line queues.
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Well one of the biggest complaints we saw about I20 was that there were only two trials and people wanted more variety. Now the argument there comes down to what sort of variety should the devs provide. They are opting for expanding the content instead of expanding the types of content. As with every decision they make this will please some people and annoy others. For people who enjoy running the trials more variety is a good thing and they are going to always want more trials.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Yes, but see the point I make at the end of the post.
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Now you say they aren't "necessary" I agree, they aren't necessary but then neither is soloable incarnate content. As long as there is some method of getting the Incarnate powers then it is not "necessary" to add more methods. Now obviously from a player point of view adding more incarnate content is a good thing, more variety keeps players from burning out and losing interest.
Now you can argue that you would prefer the devs to focus less on team content and more on solo content for Incarnates, there's nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't make adding more trials is somehow worthless. It is providing concrete value in improved play experience to those of us who enjoy the trials.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I am, however, rather frustrated by this system overall in that I feel it is incumbent on developers to build systems based on the resources they have available. If you don't have the resources to build the content necessary to move the system forward, the system needs to be moved forward in another way. You don't build and open Disneyland and only then start thinking about where to place the line queues.
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When it comes down to it the J/I/L/D slots are basically a new level range with almost no content at all (the Alpha slot is a bit different since it straddles two level ranges). The devs opted to release the new range when they had it working and had enough content to allow people to play through it. In the same way Issue 1 released the 40-50 level range but by no means all of the content that we currently have available for that range.
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If the devs followed that philosophy, we wouldn't have a game at all. This game launched with far less content, and more importantly far less content working than it really needed. It launched without even the final 10 levels explicitly planned for the game. If the devs decided not to launch anything until it had enough content to please even 51% of the players, we wouldn't get any expansions to the game in any direction.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I am, however, rather frustrated by this system overall in that I feel it is incumbent on developers to build systems based on the resources they have available. If you don't have the resources to build the content necessary to move the system forward, the system needs to be moved forward in another way. You don't build and open Disneyland and only then start thinking about where to place the line queues.
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Sometimes they release less content than I think its appropriate even with that understanding, but "launch complete" in terms of content density is an impossible criteria to meet after launch.
And its so easy to say "if there's not enough for me, they shouldn't launch at all" but that voice is counterbalanced by an equal number of voices saying "launch now, period." People were begging the devs to release the Alpha slot even if there wasn't a direct way to unlock it or slot it. They were perfectly happy farming shards for everything, and their attitude is "if you want to wait for content, you wait for content: don't make the rest of us wait with you."
The devs have to navigate a compromise between the two, and its never going to be an especially happy compromise.
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I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here. The game will never be "complete" until the servers shut down. The devs will (hopefully) always continue to add more content to the game and that's all this is, adding more content to a specific "level" range that the devs feel is lacking in content (a point I would agree with them on). When it comes down to it the J/I/L/D slots are basically a new level range with almost no content at all (the Alpha slot is a bit different since it straddles two level ranges). The devs opted to release the new range when they had it working and had enough content to allow people to play through it. In the same way Issue 1 released the 40-50 level range but by no means all of the content that we currently have available for that range. |
I'm not saying it has to be "complete." It does have to be "comfortable." An MMO will never ship with all of its eventual content available from the beginning, but it does have to ship with enough to keep systems functional.
My point is only that if you don't have the resources to build more than a few trials in the course of a year, that is a reason not to make the entire system lean on trials. So I agree with you about a new trial coming out not being a bad thing. The aside was that the system's design shouldn't be set up to rely on something that can only be delivered on such a limited schedule.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And its so easy to say "if there's not enough for me, they shouldn't launch at all" but that voice is counterbalanced by an equal number of voices saying "launch now, period." People were begging the devs to release the Alpha slot even if there wasn't a direct way to unlock it or slot it. They were perfectly happy farming shards for everything, and their attitude is "if you want to wait for content, you wait for content: don't make the rest of us wait with you."\
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That is not what I said. I said that the system itself should be designed with the limitations on resources in mind. If you cannot produce those resources, design the system in a way that is not as constrained.
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Ok, I think I see where you're coming from now. The problem is that I don't think there is a better solution than the one that the devs have adopted. At a fundamental level the existence of the Trials is the reason for the Incarnate system and not the other way around. The devs decided that they wanted to add "raid-style" content (even if it bears only a superficial resemblance to raids in other games) and the Incarnate system is the reward system to make the trials worth running. The devs could potentially have created the Incarnate system without the trials but they couldn't have created the trials without the Incarnate system and at the end of the day the Trials are what is really important.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm not saying it has to be "complete." It does have to be "comfortable." An MMO will never ship with all of its eventual content available from the beginning, but it does have to ship with enough to keep systems functional.
My point is only that if you don't have the resources to build more than a few trials in the course of a year, that is a reason not to make the entire system lean on trials. So I agree with you about a new trial coming out not being a bad thing. The aside was that the system's design shouldn't be set up to rely on something that can only be delivered on such a limited schedule. |
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You specifically said:|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
That is not what I said. I said that the system itself should be designed with the limitations on resources in mind. If you cannot produce those resources, design the system in a way that is not as constrained.
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| If you don't have the resources to build the content necessary to move the system forward, the system needs to be moved forward in another way |
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Personally, I feel it's less an issue of what I want or you want or Evil Geko wants, and more a case of what the development team can plain afford to develop in a reasonable timeframe and fashion, and keep in mind that my leeway for both is fairly loose.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And its so easy to say "if there's not enough for me, they shouldn't launch at all" but that voice is counterbalanced by an equal number of voices saying "launch now, period." People were begging the devs to release the Alpha slot even if there wasn't a direct way to unlock it or slot it. They were perfectly happy farming shards for everything, and their attitude is "if you want to wait for content, you wait for content: don't make the rest of us wait with you."
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The thing is, this isn't the first argument we've had for end game. We've spoken of upping the level cap in the past, adding more TFs or some new kind of progression, and the development team has always given us the same answer: They can't keep up with the speed at which players play through content, and no matter how much extra stuff they append to the end of the game, players will go through it in a week and ask for more.
What happened to this explanation? One possibility is that the development team now is capable of producing more content than the development team which made those claims, but having seen their capability of producing Incarnate content, there's no evidence of this. Another possibility is that they deemed end game so important that it was worth devoting what subjectively feels like three quarters of their resources to just that, even in the full knowledge that that still won't be enough, but I don't think this can be considered a good choice.
When Matt Miller talked about Incarnates when he stepped down as Lead Designer of City of Heroes and promoted Melissa Bianco in his place, he talked about leading a separate design team which would work exclusively on the end game system. He said this both to reassure us that development on Incarnates won't eat into development of everything else (a statement proven false on its face, eventually) and so that they could have creative freedom to design something truly spectacular and groundbreaking. Maybe I'm just too jaded, but what I see in the Incarnate system isn't sufficiently different from normal content to get my panties up in a bunch. It's more complex, yes, but I don't find it more exciting, personally.
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Basically, it comes down to this: The development team spent years insisting they didn't have the resources to make proper end game and finally did it anyway. And it's possessed of exactly the kind of bugs both Jack Emmert and Matt Miller were citing as making end game impossible before. If you can't afford to make and maintain a game system without halting development on everything else, then either find a better way to make that system or make something else.
After all, when BABs said that power customization would take several Issues over the span of a year and a half to two years during which time the art team would be unable to do NOTHING else, you didn't see fans of power customization (myself among them) come down from the hills to insist "Doesn't matter! Do it anyway!" We understood that this idea was just too expensive and left it alone. And when power customization finally did come, it came because of an increased staff roster and better technology, not because someone bit the bullet and did that in place of everything else.
I understand that end game is important (to some people), but I don't think the development team has the resources to so much as even make it, even with all the cut corners of intentionally designed grinding and farming.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Actually yeah, we did. Not you, but lots of people kept going on and on and on about it.
| After all, when BABs said that power customization would take several Issues over the span of a year and a half to two years during which time the art team would be unable to do NOTHING else, you didn't see fans of power customization (myself among them) come down from the hills to insist "Doesn't matter! Do it anyway!" |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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To the point that other people would copy-paste a reply with all known Dev statements about it whenever it came up, iirc
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Actually yeah, we did. Not you, but lots of people kept going on and on and on about it.
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Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
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Uh, how so? I don't see any evidence that Posi's endgame work has eaten into non-endgame work. Without them providing a breakdown of labor since the promotion of War Witch, I don't see how anyone could claim that.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
When Matt Miller talked about Incarnates when he stepped down as Lead Designer of City of Heroes and promoted Melissa Bianco in his place, he talked about leading a separate design team which would work exclusively on the end game system. He said this both to reassure us that development on Incarnates won't eat into development of everything else (a statement proven false on its face, eventually) and so that they could have creative freedom to design something truly spectacular and groundbreaking. |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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By virtue of that being almost exclusively what we've gotten since Incarnates came to the scene. If Matt Miller's explanation had held water, we'd have seen at least a comparable amount of non-Incarnate content being developed, but this hasn't happened. Now, again, this may be a case of most of the studio working on Freedom content so there being few people left, but we were promised the game wouldn't focus on end game all of a sudden, and it has.|
Originally Posted by Furio
Uh, how so? I don't see any evidence that Posi's endgame work has eaten into non-endgame work. Without them providing a breakdown of labor since the promotion of War Witch, I don't see how anyone could claim that.
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This isn't about patience or preference or accusations. It's about the simple fact that one of the developer-stated problems and reasons they didn't want to do end game content to begin with has happened exactly as Jack Emmert and Matt Miller predicted it back in 2004, and Matt Miller's promised solution to that problem hasn't worked.
Also, the mere fact that they delayed Going Rogue, then launched it without End Game and had to wait a whole other Issue to so much as add it, and then wait a half-issue to add to it tells me that there's a hell of a lot more work involved with Incarnate than anyone cares to admit and, quite possibly, than anyone expected. They've blown several soft deadlines already, and the first couple of months after Going Rogue release were spent with people demanding their end game that they paid money for.
I'm more than positive that Paragon Studios bit off more than they could chew, and the small amount of content that gives Incarnate rewards is proof positive of that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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"A Aa aAAAAAaaA Aaaaa AAAAA aaaa AAAAAAAA aaaa Aaa Aa"
Or maybe these are just how my sleeping pills are making it seem.