Captain America & Superman
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2011-06-28 07:59 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
Looking at the dc vs marvel perspective its easier for the dc heroes because they do not have to deal with prejudice on such a huge scale compared to marvel. Also with dc there are more interplanetary threats than marvel where most of the stuff is just parts of the earth where the action happens. Marvels characters perticularly the mutants would get the respec they deserve if they were not wrote into the same situation over and over again with the whole prejudice thing. Its like they are trying to keep shoe horning the marvel characters into the worst part of our history when racism and such was at its peak. Also if there were more things on the scale of darksied, brainiac, parrallax going in the marvel universe the people would feel they have a need for the heroes. True enough there is the potential to have an anti-hero group like cadmus in marvels universe if the heroes united like the way the justice league did to save the world I do not think it would be as extreme because almost no marvel characters are on the same level as superman.
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I don't think they're being shoe horned into it. The prejudice should remain there. They're mutants. The world hates them. Actually making it so the whole world loves all mutants would ruin the comic.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Looking at the dc vs marvel perspective its easier for the dc heroes because they do not have to deal with prejudice on such a huge scale compared to marvel. Also with dc there are more interplanetary threats than marvel where most of the stuff is just parts of the earth where the action happens. Marvels characters perticularly the mutants would get the respec they deserve if they were not wrote into the same situation over and over again with the whole prejudice thing. Its like they are trying to keep shoe horning the marvel characters into the worst part of our history when racism and such was at its peak. Also if there were more things on the scale of darksied, brainiac, parrallax going in the marvel universe the people would feel they have a need for the heroes. True enough there is the potential to have an anti-hero group like cadmus in marvels universe if the heroes united like the way the justice league did to save the world I do not think it would be as extreme because almost no marvel characters are on the same level as superman.
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Now, what does work, is a few of those mutants having the public adore them. Beast as an Avenger, I believe had this for awhile, I don't think it's happening currently, and if memory serves, I think the public only loved him in the Avengers comics (maybe Spider-Man) but never really in X-Men.
And like you said. Marvel doesn't really have interplanetary villains to deal with, at least not on the scale of DC. So Marvel heroes suffer a bit more as vigilantes instead of everyone seeing them save the world again!
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Not as public for alot of it though. I mean, I don't recall the X-Men saving the world from the Brood as being widely known by the masses.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
And despite it all, they manage to save the world just as often as anyone in DC.
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they weren't all that high to begin with. it was when they started adding one ridiculous power after another during the silver age that the writers thought it was time to bring him down a couple notches. Also, kryptonite is far from his only weakness. Ignoring the other weaknesses he's got, he's had the crap beat out of him multiple times. The first time he died it was because someone beat him to death. No kryptonite, no magic, no red sun. Just kept hitting, and hitting, and hitting until the big guy couldnt take anymore. |
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
The problem with superman is that they just made him too powerful. It pretty much means they have to lean on the kryptonite plot device over and over. See smallville and that other super hero game. I think if supermans power levels were never so high to begin with it would have been alot easier to write for this character.
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He does have his moments when he seems near omnipotent with his power level, though those tend to be special circumstance cases, or just moments of horrible writing. and he doesn't have any more or less of those than any of the other superheroes out there.
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I've always disagreed with this argument.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
The problem with superman is that they just made him too powerful.
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This notion that the heroes life HAS to be in danger for the story to have any drama, seems kinda ridiculous to me. Superman has met plenty of villains who can give him a run for his money without the help of kryptonite. However, given how powerful he is, the drama for a Superman story shouldn't always be about if he'll die, but if he can save everyone. He's not infallible; he might fail to save someone (a devastating failure in his eyes), he might fail to capture the villain.
You don't need the possibility of the hero's death to make a story interesting.
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I'd have to be brought in with some sort of hydraulic system that the Army Corps of Engineers set up...
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
again, quality of writing is key, bring in hickman to see him done right
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Personally, I think Superman is better served and written well when it's not just another "I might be beaten/die" Superhero story, but when he's placed on a higher level. I would love to read stories of Superman battling not a supervillain but worldhunger, needless war, genocide, catastrophic natural disasters. The Man can move mountains..so give him convincing reasons to do so! Now for stories of physical conflict involving Big Blue,stories of cosmic danger work well...that's the level they keep placing him on.
The thing about Captain America and Superman..is to me they are two sides of the same coin. The only difference betwen them in the eyes of others in their perspective universes is Captain America doesn't have the same level of physical ability as Superman.
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Been years since I read comics, but this describes precisely why I preferred Marvel to DC. While certainly fantastical in context, more Marvel stories rooted in real world problems. This is partially due to most Marvel comics occurring in actual cities where most DC stories take place in fictitious cities. It's simply easier to ground the stories this way.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Looking at the dc vs marvel perspective its easier for the dc heroes because they do not have to deal with prejudice on such a huge scale compared to marvel. Also with dc there are more interplanetary threats than marvel where most of the stuff is just parts of the earth where the action happens. Marvels characters perticularly the mutants would get the respec they deserve if they were not wrote into the same situation over and over again with the whole prejudice thing. Its like they are trying to keep shoe horning the marvel characters into the worst part of our history when racism and such was at its peak. Also if there were more things on the scale of darksied, brainiac, parrallax going in the marvel universe the people would feel they have a need for the heroes. True enough there is the potential to have an anti-hero group like cadmus in marvels universe if the heroes united like the way the justice league did to save the world I do not think it would be as extreme because almost no marvel characters are on the same level as superman.
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Racism still remains an issue today. While the US may not be at Civil Rights Movement levels of racial tension, it hasn't evaporated. It's also generally accepted that the wrong events at the wrong time can quickly shift attitudes. Some countries handle racism better than the US, other countries far, far worst. This is the appeal of the mutant story lines. These are the stories that allow Marvel to depict bigotry with out being offensive (yes, on occasion they fail.)
While I acknowledge exceptions (like Batman), I found most DC characters and story lines simply too outlandish and too fantastical. While I agree, great writing can over come this, retaining writers of such caliber isn't realistic.
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Batman is totally NOT an exception. He is DC to the CORE. Just because he doesn't have superpowers doesn't mean he's realistic. He's a billionaire who lives in a fictional city and is obsessed with fighting nothing but deranged lunatics to the point that his superhero identity has become who he really is while his alter ego Bruce Wayne is little more than a beard. He has enough detective skills, fighting skills, tactical genius and IQ points to somehow let him stand toe-to-toe with Superman as an EQUAL (and this causes Superman to instantly become an idiot who forgets what powers he has anytime the two team up). In what way is that "realistic"?|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
Been years since I read comics, but this describes precisely why I preferred Marvel to DC. While certainly fantastical in context, more Marvel stories rooted in real world problems. This is partially due to most Marvel comics occurring in actual cities where most DC stories take place in fictitious cities. It's simply easier to ground the stories this way.
Racism still remains an issue today. While the US may not be at Civil Rights Movement levels of racial tension, it hasn't evaporated. It's also generally accepted that the wrong events at the wrong time can quickly shift attitudes. Some countries handle racism better than the US, other countries far, far worst. This is the appeal of the mutant story lines. These are the stories that allow Marvel to depict bigotry with out being offensive (yes, on occasion they fail.) While I acknowledge exceptions (like Batman), I found most DC characters and story lines simply too outlandish and too fantastical. While I agree, great writing can over come this, retaining writers of such caliber isn't realistic. |
Just because he's "gritty" and "badass" and beats people up does not make him a "Marvel" style character. DC characters are not as realistic, and that's why I like them a lot more. I find most of the depth in Marvel characters to be shallow; created to make people look at them at a glance and instantly think "oh, they're real people with real problems". DC characters, on the other hand, need to be read and comprehended before they are fully understood. Marvel characters might have more readily apparent flaws in their characters, but that hardly gives them more depth or make them somehow "better".
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I...am not sure you have ever read a 616 Marvel book. Have you?
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Originally Posted by Durakken
I'm not too big on Marvel, but my take is that most of the heroes don't deserve praise...
Captain America isn't really a hero and is more of a d-bag than anything from what I have read (which is very little mind you) Tony Stark is a arms dealer and a drunk chauvinist. Thor should be the one above, but is aloof and doesn't really care too much about being a hero Bruce Banner is a whiney idiot that Trashes the world as much or more than super villains. Xavier can be seen as training an army of super powered people The Fantastic Four unleash chaos on the world in various forms due to Reed messing with stuff. The only real example of a hero they have that I've seen is Spider-Man and those affiliated directly with him. Of course, the civilians themselves are fairly d-baggy themselves with cops pulling guns and shooting at people who are clearly not a threat, people accusing heroes of being in league with villains, and various other crap... Seems to me that the civilians get the heroes they deserve in the Marvel universe, at least the Ultimate Marvel Universe |
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I have, just not many...
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Originally Posted by BlackSun17
I...am not sure you have ever read a 616 Marvel book. Have you?
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I'm not sure I under stand your statements. You saying you prefer DC because they are more unrealistic? The flaws of the Marvel charicters aren't real flaws? Could you confirm and/or explain this a little more. Specificaly address the flaws of the DC heroes as I was unaware they had any.
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Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
Batman is totally NOT an exception. He is DC to the CORE. Just because he doesn't have superpowers doesn't mean he's realistic. He's a billionaire who lives in a fictional city and is obsessed with fighting nothing but deranged lunatics to the point that his superhero identity has become who he really is while his alter ego Bruce Wayne is little more than a beard. He has enough detective skills, fighting skills, tactical genius and IQ points to somehow let him stand toe-to-toe with Superman as an EQUAL (and this causes Superman to instantly become an idiot who forgets what powers he has anytime the two team up). In what way is that "realistic"?
Just because he's "gritty" and "badass" and beats people up does not make him a "Marvel" style character. DC characters are not as realistic, and that's why I like them a lot more. I find most of the depth in Marvel characters to be shallow; created to make people look at them at a glance and instantly think "oh, they're real people with real problems". DC characters, on the other hand, need to be read and comprehended before they are fully understood. Marvel characters might have more readily apparent flaws in their characters, but that hardly gives them more depth or make them somehow "better". |
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I thought it was quite obvious that Marvel made its entire reputation on heroes that weren't traditionally heroic:
Spiderman is full of doubts and lacks severely for experience.
The X-Men are freaks of nature hated and feared by most of the world.
The Fantastic Four are a dysfunctional family.
The Punisher is a homicidal vigilante.
The Hulk is an out of control maniac, the living embodiment of the abandonment of intellect.
Iron Man is an alchoholic, jingoist, warhawk, womanizer.
Captain America was 4F.
This was the defining quality of Marvel Comics for most of the Silver Age, they created unlikely heroes and antiheroes.
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The problem with superman is that they just made him too powerful. It pretty much means they have to lean on the kryptonite plot device over and over. See smallville and that other super hero game. I think if supermans power levels were never so high to begin with it would have been alot easier to write for this character.
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Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!