Effective how? The devs have been very good at responding to, and in some cases, anticipating various concern. They aren't going to cancel their plans, if that's what you're getting at. The last major p2p to f2p conversions doubled revenue, vastly increased subscribers, and triple players. This is major win for the company. It's like printing money, practically. Any players they lose will be more than replaced.
Have you listened to the Ustreams (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/paragon-studios) this week? Paragon has had a beta for a special group since last year. I wish I would have gotten an invite but I didn't. But my point in mentioning this is that Paragon is not just "winging this," they have been planning this for a while.
I just wish I was better connected to this game because this seemed to have come out of the blue even though I read the boards daily.
I have downloaded the beta server today so in the future I will have access to Production, Test and Beta sites.
About the way this was done, if this was any other game besides CoH, I would be concerned. They have smart people here with 7 years + of experience. I don't give this move even a second thought. I now can have all of my friends come to this great game for nothing now.
What is better than that?
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If you're talking about the game I think you are, that shift changed the game from hemorrhaging vast sums of money to a papercut of lost money. Think about what a similar change could do to a game that's actually turning a profit before the change.
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Originally Posted by catwhowalksbyhimself
The last major p2p to f2p conversions doubled revenue, vastly increased subscribers, and triple players.
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@Roderick
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Pardon me, but what gives you the idea that you are entitled to tell someone else how to run their business?|
Originally Posted by Madadh
...
But I'm not thrilled that we're getting it, like it or not, without feedback at all, just suck it, without say as to how it happens.. |
The Devs have said several times that they took input from the players into account, but that doesn't mean they are going to let the players dictate business decisions.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
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1) Corporations don't put their business decisions up to a vote of the customer base -- you vote with your wallet. If this is the massive disaster you seem to be implying it will be, they'll know it by their lack of revenue (I don't for one second think that's going to be anywhere near the case).|
Originally Posted by Madadh
So, I hope to put up a vote thread.. Just speak up if you want more input as to the new directions implementation... I"m not sure that we'll be listened to... I hope those of us with concerns on all side fo the issue will speak up, but I am not sure how effective our voices might be. With luck we can be far more effective than I suspect..
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2) The people who post on this forum are only a fraction of the active subscriber base -- so how would a "vote thread" even have much validity in the scope of truly representing their subscribers' opinions on the matter?
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You forgot 3)...|
Originally Posted by Eric Nelson
1) Corporations don't put their business decisions up to a vote of the customer base -- you vote with your wallet. If this is the massive disaster you seem to be implying it will be, they'll know it by their lack of revenue (I don't for one second think that's going to be anywhere near the case).
2) The people who post on this forum are only a fraction of the active subscriber base -- so how would a "vote thread" even have much validity in the scope of truly representing their subscribers' opinions on the matter? |
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5. Non-Constructive posts are prohibited. Below is a non-exhaustive list of examples of non-constructive posts. As a rule, non-constructive posting is not permitted:
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
I think Impish Kat went a little too far but....
remember this is not a pure F2P, it's a hybrid. Do you feel better now?
Impish Kat & Roderick have it exactly right. Corporations do NOT make decisions by taking a small sample of their customer base and let them vote on the future direction of products. Thinking that they might do so is a bit naive and unworldly.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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Corporations do make decisions based on small sampling because it would cost too much to test too many people. Do you know what clinical trials are? But moving along, CoH again on Ustream said they used a small sampling as the basis to move to the new hybrid model.
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
Impish Kat & Roderick have it exactly right. Corporations do NOT make decisions by taking a small sample of their customer base and let them vote on the future direction of products. Thinking that they might do so is a bit naive and unworldly.
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I have zero illusions about my ability to sway the course of the devs decisions.. Not only do I realize I have little ability, I am certain I have NO entitlement, as you seem to think I was stating.|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
Pardon me, but what gives you the idea that you are entitled to tell someone else how to run their business?
The Devs have said several times that they took input from the players into account, but that doesn't mean they are going to let the players dictate business decisions. . |
I understand that they may have taken player input into account previously, and I am not so naive as t think they should or will let players dictate business decisions.....But I do believe that perhaps they'd be equally naive to totally disregard their subscriber bases interest... Even though it seems they may be trying to financially distance themselves from their tie to that subscriber base... But, I hope that said subscriber base understands that this move may be an attempt to make them less beholden to use regular subscribers. And if the regular subscribers see anything that concerns them, I would hope they'd speak up...
Lastly, did I ever state that I thought I had any right to dictate to anyone else how to run their business? I may have implied that I (when coupled with the rest of us) might have some ability to shift the best business model for someone else, but I never intentionally claimed any right to dictate to anyone how to run their business. As much as I'm a happy fan and customer of CoH at the moment, if they decide to charge 50 million dollars a month, I can comment on that plan negatively, but it is their decision. And, in truth, if they get 2 people to pay that rate, it may be a smart decision for them.
So, what gives me the idea.... Just the idea that perhaps I may not be alone on my opinions. And if I am not, that perhaps CoH as a company may not be willing to risk so many loyal fans.. But I could well be far off base. The general populace could all be with you and CoH on this.. As I said from the get go, I could very well be wrong... Heck, I could be VERY wrong, and this could go forward and be the best thing ever. I hope so, if it does go forward...
But, until then, I have the right to speak. And I speak of uncertainty about this direction, and encourage others with similar doubts to speak as well. I also encourage those whoe are sure this is a great idea to speak their mind as well. Tell us why this is a good idea, because I dont see it.. I welcome you to convince me...
I''m not intractable; I'm willing to be convinced, but so far, I'm not.
Madadh,
You stated your position with the title, "Not a pure fan of F2P." Some of your comments are careless though. Many people on the boards have wanted CoH to do this F2p thing for a very, very long time.
What specifically don't you like about this model? I think it's fair. Have you downloaded the beta client to even look at? I think the Hybrid model they are moving to will lift this game clearly above the rest and kill the competitors. I have many friends who love this game but don't play it enough to sub to it regularly. One of my friends is a vet from the beginning who brought me to the game and he never crafted recipes or even been inside Cimerora until we played together in Apr/May 2011. The new model allows people to work to paid at their own speed. They'll all go VIP sooner or later once they get invested enough. The F2P keeps them from searching another game because there is a ton of sub 50 stuff in this game. Also, the game needs more players to survive. They have to do this. More players will mean a better quality of gaming for all of us because we'll always have people to play with.
Consider that my comments are also coming from my own position regarding bases.
I have made lists, suggestions, ranted, begged, argued logic, stimulated discussions, played devil's advocate and more to get some love for bases.
HOWEVER, I have always stopped short of telling (dictating) the devs how to run their business. In the end, I recognize it is their decision. They're gonna do what they're gonna do.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
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While it's not a product, here's an example of what may happen if they do.
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
Impish Kat & Roderick have it exactly right. Corporations do NOT make decisions by taking a small sample of their customer base and let them vote on the future direction of products. Thinking that they might do so is a bit naive and unworldly.
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Global @StarGeek
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Just remember Madadh, if you go VIP it won't be F2P for you
So they did listen to you after all...
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Quoting the linked article:
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Originally Posted by StarGeek
While it's not a product, here's an example of what may happen if they do.
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| Walmart came up with the answer first, then asked customers to agree to it |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Very fair question.. I love the idea that my friends that want to play the game but can't afford to can join the club....|
Originally Posted by Residentx10
Madadh,
You stated your position with the title, "Not a pure fan of F2P." Some of your comments are careless though. Many people on the boards have wanted CoH to do this F2p thing for a very, very long time. What specifically don't you like about this model? I think it's fair. Have you downloaded the beta client to even look at? I think the Hybrid model they are moving to will lift this game clearly above the rest and kill the competitors. I have many friends who love this game but don't play it enough to sub to it regularly. One of my friends is a vet from the beginning who brought me to the game and he never crafted recipes or even been inside Cimerora until we played together in Apr/May 2011. The new model allows people to work to paid at their own speed. They'll all go VIP sooner or later once they get invested enough. |
But...
I'm far from rich, but, none of my friends that choose not to play CoH make that choice based on money.. I may be in the tiniest minority.. But I can only make my choices on what I know.. All of the people I know that leave CoH do so because of ideals or community issues. Many are influenced by money, but none that I know of tell me that's the core reason. Recently I've been hounded personally by a LOT of people telling me they are leaving the game based on moral standards. Well, maybe that is a big reason..
So, if that is in any tiny way true, then the cost won't help the game's quality...But the accessibility will change the nature of the game... If anyone doesn't think that having unlimited spammers can't change anything, then you aren't as savvy as the spammers.. Maybe unlimited /gignore and unlimited/smamage are needed for VIP accounts at teh least, but still spam is smarter than counter spam... It's a truism of the industry..
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Talk more about the moral issues. |
Originally Posted by Madadh
Recently I've been hounded personally by a LOT of people telling me they are leaving the game based on moral standards. Well, maybe that is a big reason..
So, if that is in any tiny way true, then the cost won't help the game's quality...But the accessibility will change the nature of the game... If anyone doesn't think that having unlimited spammers can't change anything, then you aren't as savvy as the spammers.. Maybe unlimited /gignore and unlimited/smamage are needed for VIP accounts at teh least, but still spam is smarter than counter spam... It's a truism of the industry.. |
About the other stuff, the game will be busy for the July and August(summer break) but come fall the game will taper off unless this thing just "blows up = everyone loves and stays and converts."
I have played lots of other games recently and they can't touch this game. The last 6 months they have done things to make it easier to onboard people. Example, today I downloaded the beta server(4GB) client in 25 minutes with the installer.
This is what you not seeing. More people even if they play 1 hour a week will increase the fun. I'm on Freedom and I love it. I was on Union and I hated it. Why? because Freedom has a 24x7 huge base. I meet different people and play whenever I want and I make progress. Basically, I play this game whenever it's convenient to me.
If the new users move to other servers beside freedom and virtue this will help the game immensely.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Quoting the linked article:
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Heh, Oops
Global @StarGeek
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Come terms with yourself over this fast!!! |
Originally Posted by Madadh
I love the idea that my friends that want to play the game but can't afford to can join the club....
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The first work hard but the game has a history of making it easy to catch up for late bloomers. Remember Ramiel? New Alphas can now go straight to the trials to open the slot now. Remember...only sub 50 content with lots of bugs. Not a big deal.
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Wow, that's a very old debate that I didn't intend to open up here... But, as the can o worms is open, I bet a lot of folks would say that Union (and all the other servers for that matter) becoming more Freedom-like is not a reason to cheer. I play on Union in the middle of the dead hour myself, and find it plenty busy and welcoming even in the dead of night. |
Originally Posted by Residentx10
Talk more about the moral issues.
About the other stuff, the game will be busy for the July and August(summer break) but come fall the game will taper off unless this thing just "blows up = everyone loves and stays and converts." I have played lots of other games recently and they can't touch this game. The last 6 months they have done things to make it easier to onboard people. Example, today I downloaded the beta server(4GB) client in 25 minutes with the installer. This is what you not seeing. More people even if they play 1 hour a week will increase the fun. I'm on Freedom and I love it. I was on Union and I hated it. Why? because Freedom has a 24x7 huge base. I meet different people and play whenever I want and I make progress. Basically, I play this game whenever it's convenient to me. If the new users move to other servers beside freedom and virtue this will help the game immensely. |
So, I'm not totally swayed by that argument.
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Um.. Not sure how your statement, although accurate, has even the slightest to do with my comments you linked....|
Originally Posted by Residentx10
Come terms with yourself over this fast!!!
The first work hard but the game has a history of making it easy to catch up for late bloomers. Remember Ramiel? New Alphas can now go straight to the trials to open the slot now. Remember...only sub 50 content with lots of bugs. Not a big deal. |
You've got me totally confused over that one...
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That's got to be the most absurd thing I have read on these boards in months.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
...Recently I've been hounded personally by a LOT of people telling me they are leaving the game based on moral standards. Well, maybe that is a big reason..
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What sort of moral standards could have any influence over playing this game or not?
The only thing I can think of is some sort of anti-violence tirade and why would you have ever started playing if that were the case?
As for your POV of the game becoming a hybrid between F2P and Subscription based I wil agree only on the point that you are in a tiny minority and that you are wrong about it hurting the games success.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Well, if it's the most absurd thing you've read in months you're likely then months out of date...|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
That's got to be the most absurd thing I have read on these boards in months.
What sort of moral standards could have any influence over playing this game or not? The only thing I can think of is some sort of anti-violence tirade and why would you have ever started playing if that were the case? |
The standards (not that I advocate them one way or the other) are the reward system of the iTrials.. I was thoroughly castigated for even questioning that someone might ever quit the game solely on such a moral stance.. But, like it or not, people do take such a stance, or at the very least, strongly claim that they do, so you can question that stance if you like.. I've tried, and been rebuffed to no small degree..
So, you can call call what I report absurd, but not my reporting.....
And as I'd not necessacerially just accept someones say so on a topic of social reporting, I won't expect the same of you either...
Here is a spot in the discussion when I am being rebuffed for doubting that people are departing the game based solely on a moral stand...
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...258774&page=83
I frankly don't can't nor find it relevant if you are current, or able to totally understand and sympathize why people may leave the game.. I don't even care if I am current or able to grok, but I do care if we lose people... And that's why I want people to speak their minds...
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
As for your POV of the game becoming a hybrid between F2P and Subscription based I wil agree only on the point that you are in a tiny minority and that you are wrong about it hurting the games success.
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The issue is in a closed beta. If the OP was part of the closed beta they would not be able to respond to your question or risk being removed from the beta. |
Originally Posted by Residentx10
Have you downloaded the beta client to even look at?
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No one is able to go in and get a look at whats to come other than the folks that the devs have chosen for their closed testing. None of those people are going to be able to answer any questions you, the OP, myself or anyone else has about whats to come without risking being kicked from the closed beta.
Global: @Kelig
I can, in some circumstances be ok with it in limited degrees...
But I'm not thrilled that we're getting it, like it or not, without feedback at all, just suck it, without say as to how it happens..
So, I hope to put up a vote thread.. Just speak up if you want more input as to the new directions implementation... I"m not sure that we'll be listened to... I hope those of us with concerns on all side fo the issue will speak up, but I am not sure how effective our voices might be. With luck we can be far more effective than I suspect..