Quote:
Crap. You know what I did? I looked right at that One with the Shield recharge and plugged that in by mistake. Phail.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
To be fair his proposal doesnt = perma. 660 cooldown with 120 duration means at BEST with 400% recharge there'd still be 12 seconds of down time (vs the 20 seconds of downtime you could have with 1000 cooldown 180 duration.)
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Stupid Joe. Drink some more coffee.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
he he I've been known to misread a post or two myself no worries ^_^
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Crap. You know what I did? I looked right at that One with the Shield recharge and plugged that in by mistake. Phail.
Stupid Joe. Drink some more coffee. |
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Quote:
|
Originally Posted by AIB
I believe that your familiarity with OwtS led you to misread the recharge rate that I actually proposed.
There recharge is not the same. There is a 5 minute difference. OwtS = 360s recharge Light Form (Resplendence) = 660s recharge The +recovery and mez protection that Light Form currently gives should remain exactly as it is. These two tier 9s are not as similar as you think... OwtS =
Personally I find it fascinating. Remember, the key thing to keep in mind with my proposal, as well as, the reason why it differs from so many other people's proposals is that I maintained the EXACT proportions that are present in Light Form's current in game numbers. I merely rounded those numbers to make the proposal more palatable to the masses. |
Yeah... see my post above. Sorry about that.
Let me ask you this question, however: If you've kept it in proportion by reducing the resistance with the recharge, then you're depending on the shields to keep the resistance close to the cap when it's up, right? So this would actually be a nerf for triformers who usually prefer to skip the shields.
On my triform build I didn't even take the shields, preferring instead to slot Light Form to the cap and fighting for any length of time in human form only when Light Form is up.
Having it carry over to the forms makes up for this to a large degree, however. I'll have to plug the numbers to see.
But I don't have the strength of will to do it right now (tier 9 pun... get it? get it?) Let me get some coffee and some lunch and I'll look at it at some point this afternoon.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
I don't believe it would. Tri-Formers currently can't even use Lightform with their other forms.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Let me ask you this question, however: If you've kept it in proportion by reducing the resistance with the recharge, then you're depending on the shields to keep the resistance close to the cap when it's up, right? So this would actually be a nerf for triformers who usually prefer to skip the shields.
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Sure, you can't cap with just lightform, but I'd take his idea over the current in a heartbeat.
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This should address the last couple of posts....quoting from earlier....
It is a win for Human, Dwarf and Nova.
"Light Form (Resplendence) should provide 30% resistance to S/L/E/N/F/C/T/Psi.
Its recharge should be 653.0612seconds...(appx. 10 minutes 53 seconds)
Now, everyone think about what this would mean.
30% resistance could be enhanced to appx 47% resistance.
If a PB were to be in Human form with Incandesence and Enhanced shields (35% res) then the human form could be at 85% resistance cap to E/N and have 82% resistance to S/L/F/C . With resistance enhanced Essence Boost (not that i recommend this) the human form PB could be at 70% resistance to Toxic and 47% resistance to Psi. All of this is not taking into consideration any bonuses from IOs.
In Dwarf (enhanced) one would be beyond resistance cap of 85% for S/L/E/N/F/C/T and have 47% Psi Resistance.
In Nova one would have 47% resistance to S/L/E/N/F/C/T/Psi."
Here is why...
Dwarf can't currently use LF
Nova can't currently use LF
The only criticism I foresee comes from those who prefer the high base resistance that LF provides (52.5% to S/L/E/N/F/C/T).
I am proposing to lower the base rate by 22.5%.
But...here are the selling points....
You now have a base resistance of 30% to S/L/E/N/F/C/T AND Psi.
By taking your other shields (human only players I am talking to you
) and by slotting them you can still come to the dam resistance cap on E/N and very close on S/L/F/C (82% ish). The power would be available far more often (660 seconds vs. 1000s) but the duration would be decreased (120s vs. 180s)
Have I mentioned that the crash should go away?
Thanks for the feedback.
Quote:
Does the 400% recharge take into accound the recharge reduction enhancements that can be slotted into the power???|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
To be fair his proposal doesnt = perma. 660 cooldown with 120 duration means at BEST with 400% recharge there'd still be 12 seconds of down time (vs the 20 seconds of downtime you could have with 1000 cooldown 180 duration.)
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Thanks for the numbers btw.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AIB
By taking your other shields (human only players I am talking to you ) and by slotting them you can still come to the dam resistance cap on E/N and very close on S/L/F/C (82% ish). |
Don't forget human formers can run tough
Quote:
400% is the hard limit no matter where you get your recharge from... whether its buffs, enhancements, global set bonuses... you can NEVER EVER NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO OR HOW MUCH RECHARGE YOU HAVE reduce a cooldown below 1/5th of its original value.|
Originally Posted by AIB
Does the 400% recharge take into accound the recharge reduction enhancements that can be slotted into the power???
Thanks for the numbers btw. |
Ergo... a 1000 second cooldown power can NEVER have a cooldown shorter than 200 seconds under ANY circumstances.
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Peacebringers could use some tweaks, but then again, so could Stalkers, in many's opinions.
As for doing all that 'before' doing such-and-such a project, I think that depends on a lot of other factors.
Hey, at least Energy Aura is getting buffed!
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Quote:
The form shifting animations happening quicker would add a lot more utility to Kheldians.|
Originally Posted by Zenyth
Wouldn't matter if the dps went DOWN, its still "better" than buildup thanks to not being 30% gone because of form shifting animations; and thats being generous on how much of the buff is eaten in animation time.
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I'm also on board with a general damage buff.
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Okay, I got some time and plugged AIB's numbers into the mitigation parts of the spreadsheet. Here's the link.
The salient numbers are as follows:
Human Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C: 80
Human Form survivable dps to E/N: 105
Human Form survivable dps to P/T: 52
Human Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C: 2906
Human Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 3808
Human Form Fatal Burst from P: 1885
Nova Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/P/T: 52
Nova Form survivable dps to E/N:58
Nova Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/P/T: 1885
Nova Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 2097
Dwarf Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/E/N: 241
Dwarf Form survivable dps to P/T: 91
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/E/N: 7844
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from P: 2969
For comparison, here's how it pans out with Light Form as is:
Human Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C: 88
Human Form survivable dps to E/N: 104
Human Form survivable dps to P/T: 40
Human Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C: 3196
Human Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 3876
Human Form Fatal Burst from P: 1449
Nova Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/P/T: 40
Nova Form survivable dps to E/N:47
Nova Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/P/T: 1449
Nova Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 1705
Dwarf Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/E/N: 167
Dwarf Form survivable dps to P/T: 69
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/E/N: 5430
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from P: 2254
And, because I can, here's how our Gold Standard SO Warshade fares against just one foe:
Human Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C: 99
Human Form survivable dps to E/N: 107
Human Form survivable dps to P/T: 68
Human Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C: 1772
Human Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 1917
Human Form Fatal Burst from P: 1224
Nova Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/P/T: 68
Nova Form survivable dps to E/N:82
Nova Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/P/T: 1224
Nova Form Fatal Burst from E/N: 1478
Dwarf Form survivable dps to S/L/F/C/E/N: 345
Dwarf Form survivable dps to P/T: 119
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from S/L/F/C/E/N: 6476
Dwarf Form Fatal Burst from P: 2225
So there you go, for better or for worse. AIB's suggestion - contrary to my initial fears - is NOT a nerf for the forms. It is in fact a slight nerf for human formers. It WILL make Peacebringers more survivable, but not as survivable as a warshade against a single foe. Single foes with high burst damage (AV's and whatnot) will still have a much easier time killing a warshade, due largely in part to the Peacebringer's Essence Boost. (Not taking into account +HP set bonuses and accolades on the WS, btw).
As always, someone go back and check my numbers, please.
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Now see, you flashed all of those numbers and killed the conversation .
I appreciate your analysis.
Any other thoughts on my proposal(s) people.
Sounds great to me.
Lightform becomes less extreme and more flexible: adding just enough resistance to help when you need it, without fear of the crash killing you instantly. I'll add it to my wishlist.
Current Wishlist
The inherent buff values we get from a full and balanced team are baked directly into the archetype. The inherent instead shifts abilities to match the current team (eg. moar tanks = slightly less resistance and slightly more damage). The shift wouldn't be as extreme as now. Possibly add a slight teamwide buff the equivelent of what the shift was (eg. moar tanks = slightly more damage for everyone. A couple of percent at most).
Form changes quicker. And uninterruptable.
Lightform becomes a crashless (or softcrash) +resistance +mez protection power that can be used at any time, with a faster recharge but reduced effects.
Give Build Up to Dwarf. Maybe buff or replace Build Up altogether.
Secret Wishlist
Drop the form-specific attacks altogether, and integrate the forms back into the basic build. Instead, allow forms to use the equivelent human attacks (if they have them) with shifted values. Forms would also be able to use some utility powers and shields, but again with shifted values to match the current form. To keep it simple, ranged stuff goes to Nova (ranged attack powers, glowing touch, photon seekers), melee stuff goes to Dwarf (melee attack powers, pulsar and the selfheals; and gain Taunt and Teleport for 'free' with the Dwarf power).
OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
Quote:
I still say we should just slot the forms themselves rather than the forms' powers individually, just like a mastermind slots his pets for acc/damage rather than the pets' powers individually. This would free up alot of slots, and hence room for improvement of the forms themselves, like adding a 3rd melee attack to dwarf, a 3rd ranged attack to nova and giving each form their own version of build-up/mire.|
Originally Posted by oreso
Secret Wishlist
Drop the form-specific attacks altogether, and integrate the forms back into the basic build. Instead, allow forms to use the equivelent human attacks (if they have them) with shifted values. Forms would also be able to use some utility powers and shields, but again with shifted values to match the current form. To keep it simple, ranged stuff goes to Nova (ranged attack powers, glowing touch, photon seekers), melee stuff goes to Dwarf (melee attack powers, pulsar and the selfheals; and gain Taunt and Teleport for 'free' with the Dwarf power). |
Also, why not make the human form shields passive, like the VEATs defense powers? The shields aren't all that powerful by themselves, and it'd solve (at least partially) the issue of toggle dropping when shifting back to human form. Just remove the +res slotting on the dwarf form power and it'll balance itself out (though nova form gains a bit of resistance it didn't use to have, but I'm ok with that).
Quote:
No! No no no no no no no noooooooo!|
Originally Posted by oreso
Secret Wishlist
Drop the form-specific attacks altogether, and integrate the forms back into the basic build. Instead, allow forms to use the equivelent human attacks (if they have them) with shifted values. Forms would also be able to use some utility powers and shields, but again with shifted values to match the current form. To keep it simple, ranged stuff goes to Nova (ranged attack powers, glowing touch, photon seekers), melee stuff goes to Dwarf (melee attack powers, pulsar and the selfheals; and gain Taunt and Teleport for 'free' with the Dwarf power). |
That almost works for a PB. But the attacks are on completely different scales of damage. And you can't just give Nova a damage bonus to compensate; it already has one, and increasing it would only do the AT a major disservice. Enhancements in nova form would do less and you'd make the damage cap much easier to reach (which is not a good thing in this case). Further, there are people who shift mid battle. Dwarf Flare then Human Flare, for example, is a common combo which would no longer be possible. PBs would also lose a heal.
It's even worse for a Warshade. Human Warshades don't have an attack analogous to Nova Emanation; Gravitic Emanation is a low damage stun. If you would somehow make the powers function differently depending on the form you're in, you now can't slot one for stun and the other for damage. Dwarf Drain may be easy enough, but Smite and Strike will come from where, exactly? Gravity Well, the hold? The two mires function in completely different ways, as well. One is a long duration, longer recharge buff. The other is a fast recharging AoE attack that happens to buff you for a short time. On top of that, you'd remove the ability to double mire.
In short, it's a phenomenally bad idea. This would be tantamount to fixing a broken toe by amputating the foot.
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Quote:
I'd be okey losing the special (and very awkward) combos. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
No! No no no no no no no noooooooo!
That almost works for a PB. But the attacks are on completely different scales of damage. And you can't just give Nova a damage bonus to compensate; it already has one, and increasing it would only do the AT a major disservice. Enhancements in nova form would do less and you'd make the damage cap much easier to reach (which is not a good thing in this case). Further, there are people who shift mid battle. Dwarf Flare then Human Flare, for example, is a common combo which would no longer be possible. PBs would also lose a heal. |
But the damage scale thing is easy fixed: Bake the damage bonuses straight into the attacks. Dual Pistols has damage values conditional on a toggle, after all.
Quote:
| In short, it's a phenomenally bad idea. This would be tantamount to fixing a broken toe by amputating the foot. |
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It's even a lot more complex than I mentioned. Dwarf Smite is not equivalent to Incandescent Strike. Even if having Dwarf toggled on would remove the hold and changed the damage, what about the recharge difference and animation time difference?
Quote:
I would not. When I drop out of Nova to heal, I also want to be able to use Blast or Scatter or Detonation right away, not wait for them to recharge because I just used them in Nova. Likewise, I don't want Dwarf to force a recharge on Incandescent Strike or the heal just because I used them already.|
Originally Posted by oreso
I'd be okey losing the special (and very awkward) combos.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oreso
I see the problems slotting, not to mention the awkwardness of setting up special binds etc, just to make an AT usable more than a broken toe. Happy for other suggestions though; I haven't really considered it for Warshades.
|
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Quote:
Dual pistols is very different, as the damage bonus is changed, not the scales. Implementing this idea would require almost a complere rewrite of the forms, so it isnt feasible. I personally don't like it because I like being able to slot the powers individually (it actually gives us greater ability in io'ing); I would support simply getting extra slots for form powers, and that would be rather easy to implement.
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Originally Posted by oreso
I'd be okey losing the special (and very awkward) combos.
But the damage scale thing is easy fixed: Bake the damage bonuses straight into the attacks. Dual Pistols has damage values conditional on a toggle, after all. I see the problems slotting, not to mention the awkwardness of setting up special binds etc, just to make an AT usable more than a broken toe. Happy for other suggestions though; I haven't really considered it for Warshades. |
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You mean, something like ... +1 Enhancement Slot at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 29 and 29? That would give Kheldians an extra +14 slots over other ATs ... which when you consider that Kheldians have +10 powers to slot in Nova and Dwarf forms (of which 6-8 routinely receive extra slots), that wouldn't be overpowering like it would for other ATs. Basically, Kheldians would get 3 extra slots at EVERY Slot Level ... not just at Levels 31+.
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
I would support simply getting extra slots for form powers, and that would be rather easy to implement.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
I think it would be nice if all form powers came with just three or four inherent slots (with the option to add more, but those inherent ones not counting against your slot total.)
Quote:
Fourteen extra slots is that many set bonuses. Considering those extra slots alone could be four more recharge bonuses or big defense bonuses, that's a metric ton of overpowering.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
You mean, something like ... +1 Enhancement Slot at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 29 and 29? That would give Kheldians an extra +14 slots over other ATs ... which when you consider that Kheldians have +10 powers to slot in Nova and Dwarf forms (of which 6-8 routinely receive extra slots), that wouldn't be overpowering like it would for other ATs. Basically, Kheldians would get 3 extra slots at EVERY Slot Level ... not just at Levels 31+.
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Also, what gives you those extra slots? Do you just get them for being a Kheldian? So do the human only Kheldians just get way more slots than a normal character? Do you get half of them for picking Nova and the other half for Dwarf? Can I just pick Dwarf like a wasted power pick to get seven extra slots for my human powers?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I think it would be nice if all form powers came with just three or four inherent slots (with the option to add more, but those inherent ones not counting against your slot total.)
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Quote:
I was thinking more along the lines of each form power (not the form itself, but the powers) started off with three inherent slots instead of one.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
You mean, something like ... +1 Enhancement Slot at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 29 and 29? That would give Kheldians an extra +14 slots over other ATs ... which when you consider that Kheldians have +10 powers to slot in Nova and Dwarf forms (of which 6-8 routinely receive extra slots), that wouldn't be overpowering like it would for other ATs. Basically, Kheldians would get 3 extra slots at EVERY Slot Level ... not just at Levels 31+.
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I personally don't really feel the slot crunch that much, but it is a frequent, and seemingly valid, complaint; it would totally overpower me personally though :P
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- 22.5% Resistance to S/L
- 11.25% Resistance to E/N/F/C
- 360 second recharge
- 120 second duration
- Max HP
- Mez Protection
- +Recovery
Did you deliberately exclude the +recovery and mez protection that Light Form currently gives from your proposal?...If not, you're looking at two very similar tier 9 powers, with one pretty significant difference.
...
I did a quick rundown of those numbers against the Peacebringer SO spreadsheet for human form, and with just SO's and Hasten...
There recharge is not the same.
There is a 5 minute difference.
OwtS = 360s recharge
Light Form (Resplendence) = 660s recharge
The +recovery and mez protection that Light Form currently gives should remain exactly as it is.
These two tier 9s are not as similar as you think...
OwtS =
- 22.5% Resistance to S/L
- 11.25% Resistance to E/N/F/C
- 360 second recharge
- 120 second duration
- Max HP
- Mez Protection
- +Recovery
Light Form (Resplendence)- 30% Resistance to S/L/E/N/F/C/T/Psi
- 660 second recharge
- 120 second duration
- Mez Protection
- +Recovery
If you will plug those numbers in again and tell me what you get regarding just how close one can get to making my proposal perma I would appreciate it.Personally I find it fascinating.
Remember, the key thing to keep in mind with my proposal, as well as, the reason why it differs from so many other people's proposals is that I maintained the EXACT proportions that are present in Light Form's current in game numbers.
I merely rounded those numbers to make the proposal more palatable to the masses.