City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Should we be saying something about this...?

AIB

By AIB,
Posted on: 2011-06-25 17:06 in Kheldians

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of each form power (not the form itself, but the powers) started off with three inherent slots instead of one.
That would add +20 slots to the Forms (total), which couldn't be spend on Human Form. You'd essentially get +8 slots for Nova and +12 slots for Dwarf. That is of course more than the +14 slots method I'm suggesting, but my method can spend those slots on Human form, while yours can't.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
I personally don't really feel the slot crunch that much, but it is a frequent, and seemingly valid, complaint; it would totally overpower me personally though :P
Oh yeah, all of this.

Where to now?
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Fellow Kheld users...

If one chooses to remain Human only. One receives the same number of slots as any other AT.

Right?

Actually, don't they get two more???



Here is the thing...

Warshades have built in tp and tp friend (each of these has a slot) and you can put a beneficial stat boosting enhancement in each.

PBs have built in combat flight and flight (each of these has a slot) and you can put a beneficial stat boosting enhancement in each.

When I elect to take Nova I get the default slot for the form. This is what any other AT gets when choosing a power.

However, I also get 1 slot (default) for each of the 4 new attacks it gives...

When I elect to take Dwarf I get the default slot for the form. This is what any other AT gets when choosing a power.

However, I also get 1 slot (default) for each of the 6 new powers I have access to while in Dwarf.

Count it up. WSs and PBs DO get more slots.

Either 2 extra or 6 extra or (EDIT: 8 extra) or 12 extra depending on the route one takes.

When one judges for biform or triform one judges against human only.

At that point one either accepts the consequences of his/her choice or does not.

I accept the consequences of my choice.

I am against Warshades and PBs getting more slots than they already do.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlynne View Post
That would add +20 slots to the Forms (total), which couldn't be spend on Human Form. You'd essentially get +8 slots for Nova and +12 slots for Dwarf. That is of course more than the +14 slots method I'm suggesting, but my method can spend those slots on Human form, while yours can't.
Having the slots available for human form powers introduces the problem someone mentioned above of taking a form to get freebie slots only. You'd have a human-former running around with a random, unused form, and a bunch of extra slots. Human builds should be subject to the same slotting restrictions as everyone else because the crunch really only occurs when you are trying to make use of the extra forms.

AIB, what you said is true, but to make effective use of the forms' extra powers you need slots for them. Instead of looking at it like we get a higher number of slots than everyone else because of inherent slots, think from the perspective that we get fewer slots per power. Proportionally we are behind everyone else. This of course matters less the more IO bonuses you get, but the game is balanced around SO's (lol).

The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]

 

Posted

I don't really feel the slot crunch needs to be address. people have come up with great builds inspite of having less slots. out of all the things wrong with khelds, extra slots in forms is pretty low on the(my) list.

actually I rather like that the ATs have that extra obstacle to overcome. it makes coming up with a good build that much more difficult and that much more rewarding when you come up with something that actually works. every AT has a disadvantage or hole in the design that the player has to either play around or overcome, if this is one of khelds, i'm actually happy with that.

the real problem with khelds is that there are a number of the current tools they have that don't work properly creating other holes in the ATs that shouldn't be there.

Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.

 

Posted

Something I just noticed yesterday that has probably already been brought up, but I'll bring it up again. According to Mid's, the Peacebringer's inherent combat flight only provides positional defense, but hover provides both typed AND positional defense. This seems unfair to me.

My Peacebringer build focused on s/l defense and I just assumed that Combat Flight was helping me reach my goal but when I toggled it off I noticed it was only affecting my positional defense, and all the types I was building for were higher than my positions making it worthless. I guess I could just take hover instead, but... Oh wait! No I can't.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy View Post
Something I just noticed yesterday that has probably already been brought up, but I'll bring it up again. According to Mid's, the Peacebringer's inherent combat flight only provides positional defense, but hover provides both typed AND positional defense. This seems unfair to me.

My Peacebringer build focused on s/l defense and I just assumed that Combat Flight was helping me reach my goal but when I toggled it off I noticed it was only affecting my positional defense, and all the types I was building for were higher than my positions making it worthless. I guess I could just take hover instead, but... Oh wait! No I can't.
pretty sure thats on the list of known bugs. it should provide both. but doesn't.

Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PC_guy View Post
pretty sure thats on the list of known bugs. it should provide both. but doesn't.
Ya I brought it up in another thread and billz said we should call that a bug. FYI shadow cloak has the same problem (the power its copied from, cloak of darkness, gives both typed and positional, but scloak gives only positional). Please file a bug report for both if you get a chance.

The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
Ya I brought it up in another thread and billz said we should call that a bug. FYI shadow cloak has the same problem (the power its copied from, cloak of darkness, gives both typed and positional, but scloak gives only positional). Please file a bug report for both if you get a chance.

Thanks Microcosm. I sent in the bug report earlier today.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
...AIB, what you said is true, but to make effective use of the forms' extra powers you need slots for them. Instead of looking at it like we get a higher number of slots than everyone else because of inherent slots, think from the perspective that we get fewer slots per power. Proportionally we are behind everyone else. This of course matters less the more IO bonuses you get, but the game is balanced around SO's (lol).
In order...

Yes.

Here is the thing. I can raise my damage to the cap with AIB switch to Nova form, fire off my AOEs and cause ALOT of enemy bodies to hit the floor. I can do this with nothing but a single enhancement (pick one) in my nova powers. This seems effective to me.

That being said, I'm confident that what you were getting at is..."to make MORE effective use of the forms' extra powers you need slots for them." And with this I agree. However, you get 67 additional slots on your way to level 50. I recommend using them judiciously.

You speak of proportions.

We get 1 (default) slot for each (1) power we get whether it be an innate power or one we choose. (1 to 1)

We get more slots than everyone else AND we get more powers than everyone else.

You mentioned "that we get fewer slots per power. Proportionally we are behind everyone else." This is true. But it is true from the outset. We get tp other and tpself OR combat flying and flying and yet we receive ONLY 67 extra slots just like everyone else.

Pardon my musings, but here goes,

If we are entitled to more slots because we have more powers.

Then perhaps they should just receive less slots because they have less powers.

Now, to even mention the latter is no doubt met with maniacal laughing, a rolling of the eyes, or howls of anger. Some have perhaps decided to stop reading my message altogether.

But many propose the former. And many are on board with it.

Follow me as we consider this press conference playing out in the Devs office...

Devs:
"Khelds you have potentially 17 more powers than all other ATs. We feel your pain. And we have decided that you are entitled. Beyond the default slot, you should get an extra 3 slots per power. I know, I know some have suggested more but we don't want to make you overpowered.

Congratulations, you now have 51 more slots than every other AT. Go forth and use those slots wisely. P.S. be sure to check into that whole IO set bonus thing. We suspect it might just do you some good."
Some Khelds:
"WE WON WE WON!!!"
Other Khelds:
"I have no idea what the Devs were thinking or even if they were thinking but, I reckon I'll just have to make the most of it.
Players of every other AT in the game:
(at best)

but

(more likely)
A number of them, if they did not quit, would say,
"5igN m3 up f0r Warshadezzzz + Peacebringerzzz N0WZ! LOL th3Y r s0 5tr0ng! KaN u Pl3az PL M3 s0 I canzzz g3tzz 1!!! P.S. Kan w3 g3t a h3alZ0R?"
Ok...snap back to reality.

Giving Khelds extra slots might have made some sense years ago when all that we had were Gen, DO, SO (and Hami) enhancements as well as certain innate drawbacks (no doubt the vets will remember these).

However, in my opinion, as the game currently stands, it makes absolutely no sense to give more slots to Khelds.

 

Posted

Ah, but AIB, according to the devs the game is still balanced around that former state with dos, sos, and hamis. It is not expected that you make use of ios, and, in fact, think you might find a lot of the nonforum-goers crowd still work with so builds.

The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
Ah, but AIB, according to the devs the game is still balanced around that former state with dos, sos, and hamis. It is not expected that you make use of ios, and, in fact, think you might find a lot of the nonforum-goers crowd still work with so builds.
Yes, you mentioned that earlier,

"...but the game is balanced around SO's (lol)."

Silly me. I keep forgetting.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIB View Post
Yes, you mentioned that earlier,

"...but the game is balanced around SO's (lol)."

Silly me. I keep forgetting.

Hahaha.

I think the load screen states "Those who don't choose to use the IO system will not be placed at a disadvantage."

Or something to that degree..



And sure, compared to other SO users and the NPC's, they won't be disadvantaged.

Us IO users will just be... Advantaged.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by oreso View Post
I'd be okey losing the special (and very awkward) combos.

But the damage scale thing is easy fixed: Bake the damage bonuses straight into the attacks. Dual Pistols has damage values conditional on a toggle, after all.

I see the problems slotting, not to mention the awkwardness of setting up special binds etc, just to make an AT usable more than a broken toe. Happy for other suggestions though; I haven't really considered it for Warshades.
Alot of Khelds wouldn't be happy losing those combos. My PB would be EVEN more crappy if i couldn't double flare. In my opinion, special bind's aren't "awkward" at all to set up. Plenty of people already have them made and placed on the forums all you have to do is write them down and type them in. Hell, there is a thread stickied for it. It takes a total of maybe 5 minutes to set up the binds and you never have to do it again.

When it comes to slots and power arrangements I'd rather them buff our unbalanced abilities when comparing the two ATs: like photon seekers and our lack of damage PB'side. An easy fix i heard someone else suggest: Swap build-up for the Super Strength set's rage power, change the name, and let it carry over to forms.