COH Freedom: I want to buy Recipes with Points
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-06-21 18:38 in Suggestions and Ideas
On some further thought from my original reply in here, I thought of a way I'd be ok with this: If any store-bought IOs were strictly worse than what's obtainable ingame. Whether having lower enhancement bonuses, less or worse set bonuses, or whatever. That way, you could buy a quick power boost but someone who's put in the time and effort rather than just the money will still be more powerful.
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I'm with the OP on this one... since the game is going to heck and back anyway (did I mention I don't like F2P models, hybrid or not?), if people want to throw money at it, by all means do so. Just as long as the option remains to get stuff WITHOUT having to pay for it also.
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I don't think that's a very good example, though. If a person sat at your bar from early morning to late night, ordering drink after drink, would you keep accepting his money and feeding him more booze? I mean, you could, there's no law (that I'm aware of) requiring you to do anything else, but would you? Or would you tell him "I think you've had enough for one day?"|
Originally Posted by Braije
Any good business model will show you that. Let's use a bar for example (This is my field for a living so my analogy). Presently, they're on the right track. Cater to your regulars and those that want to buy rounds for the rest of the bar so be it! Those rounds/shots are micro-transactions and reflect in the revenue. Even if they never come in again, it's about the later clientele you attract to keep the engine moving and all of it's components by the same principle as long as you operate under good responsible business practices.
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Yes, the point of a business is to make as much money as possible, but not at ANY cost. A business trying to suck as much money as it can from its customers by any means necessary comes off more as a scam than as a legitimate business, especially when some of what they're selling may well do more harm than good to the experience the business is trying to sell. Because that's all video games give us - an experience. Because how much fun is a game, really, when there's always that button in the corner of your screen saying "Cheat?" How much fun, moreover, when the game is actively trying to get you to press it?
Video games have more in common with movies than they do with bars or restaurants or night clubs, in that they offer a particular package of experiences, and they achieve this both by providing some things and by WITHOLDING others. Many times over, people have commented that City of Heroes is way too easy - to them. When told to just unslot their enhancements or not use these and those powers, they refuse to do so, and I can't blame them. Progress and a rise in power is an integral part of the game.
I've seen people ask to be GIVEN perfect builds without going through the process of obtaining them, the equivalent of running a character trainer in Diablo 2. However, this ignores the point that these items are balanced to be so powerful exactly BECAUSE they're intended to be rare and hard to get and a pain in the ***. Because they're not intended to be all over the place for everyone to use. Moreover, they're intended to be hard to get and difficult to find because the process of obtaining the unobtainable and extraordinarily powerful is in itself all the fun for some people. By providing a way to "buy" you way to these items, it corrupts the nature of this process, taking all the fun away from it.
Let's go with another example: Badges. I'm not a collector, myself, so I don't pretend to "get" the emotions around them, but I've seen enough people obsessed with them to know there's more to them than I see. People collect badges because they enjoy collecting, but how much fun do you think that collecting would be if every badge in the game were dumped in the Paragon Store for c25? It's not a matter of enjoying something because other people DON'T have it, it's a matter of enjoying something because you know it's rare and obscure. If it's not rare, then... Well, then it's not rare.
The value of certain items comes from the difficulty in obtaining them. If you "sell out" that difficulty, you corrupt the point of the items to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, first off yes there are laws which are there to fine and hold you responsible for over-serving ppl in some states (laws vary). The point of the analogy in comparison was micro-transactions. I was simply pointing out that no matter what business you're in dollars add up and pay the bills. Especially in a micro-transaction which is what going from F2P to Premium or becoming a VIP. You have to cater to every customers wants and needs because that pays for overhead and staff. (Micro-transactions = instant revenue) it's the nature of the beast.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't think that's a very good example, though. If a person sat at your bar from early morning to late night, ordering drink after drink, would you keep accepting his money and feeding him more booze? I mean, you could, there's no law (that I'm aware of) requiring you to do anything else, but would you? Or would you tell him "I think you've had enough for one day?"
Yes, the point of a business is to make as much money as possible, but not at ANY cost. A business trying to suck as much money as it can from its customers by any means necessary comes off more as a scam than as a legitimate business, especially when some of what they're selling may well do more harm than good to the experience the business is trying to sell. Because that's all video games give us - an experience. Because how much fun is a game, really, when there's always that button in the corner of your screen saying "Cheat?" How much fun, moreover, when the game is actively trying to get you to press it? Video games have more in common with movies than they do with bars or restaurants or night clubs, in that they offer a particular package of experiences, and they achieve this both by providing some things and by WITHOLDING others. Many times over, people have commented that City of Heroes is way too easy - to them. When told to just unslot their enhancements or not use these and those powers, they refuse to do so, and I can't blame them. Progress and a rise in power is an integral part of the game. I've seen people ask to be GIVEN perfect builds without going through the process of obtaining them, the equivalent of running a character trainer in Diablo 2. However, this ignores the point that these items are balanced to be so powerful exactly BECAUSE they're intended to be rare and hard to get and a pain in the ***. Because they're not intended to be all over the place for everyone to use. Moreover, they're intended to be hard to get and difficult to find because the process of obtaining the unobtainable and extraordinarily powerful is in itself all the fun for some people. By providing a way to "buy" you way to these items, it corrupts the nature of this process, taking all the fun away from it. Let's go with another example: Badges. I'm not a collector, myself, so I don't pretend to "get" the emotions around them, but I've seen enough people obsessed with them to know there's more to them than I see. People collect badges because they enjoy collecting, but how much fun do you think that collecting would be if every badge in the game were dumped in the Paragon Store for c25? It's not a matter of enjoying something because other people DON'T have it, it's a matter of enjoying something because you know it's rare and obscure. If it's not rare, then... Well, then it's not rare. The value of certain items comes from the difficulty in obtaining them. If you "sell out" that difficulty, you corrupt the point of the items to begin with. |
Again, ideals do not pay the bills. If someone wants to run around collecting badges, or making costumes or RPing, that's fine it's their 15 bucks. And apparently marketing agrees and understands the value of micro-transactions or those vet rewards wouldn't be available to everyone as they soon will be. Whether you get those 'shinies' for your loyalty or just by paying for them in a micro-transactions, it's not really much different than purchasing influence.
I'm sorry if this upsets you, it's just an opinion and from the looks of things an eventuality. You do this in real life daily as it is anyway via taxes to help pay for the upkeep of the infrastructure. In order for this to continue they're essentially doing the same thing and it makes good business sense at this juncture. Is it unfortunate? Not really, because with that revenue you will be benefiting every time you log on to play. It is no more or less tangible than these badges and costumes you already 'possess'. I understand where you're coming from and respect your opinion. Sadly, in the free market the almighty dollar always speaks loudest.
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That's $15 that the company won't get once people stop collecting badges if those become purchasable. You talk about this like there's nothing to lose, and there is. By offering services like buying influence, buying powers and buying your way to success, you do make money off those willing to do it, but you LOSE money off those who not only don't buy them, but stop paying you anything at all and leave for another game.|
Originally Posted by Braije
If someone wants to run around collecting badges, or making costumes or RPing, that's fine it's their 15 bucks.
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It IS unfortunate, actually. Because I can tell you right now - I'm not going to play a game where the most important thing is how much money you pay. City of Heroes should never, ever allow people the option of "cheating" for money, and if it does, then it will be rather more than unfortunate.
A game is not real life, and I play it for precisely that reason. If Paragon Studios are incapable of running a business without turning their game into an environment where even VIP customers are still second class to those with lots of disposable income, then I guarantee you that they'll lose more revenue off cancellation than they will gain off people wanting to pay to win.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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F2P players aren't willing to spend anything. They want to play without making any financial commitment.|
Originally Posted by Braije
Hope half of the F2P players don't have this mentality.
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Premium players are the ones willing to open their wallets.
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The game is already like that. I'm not just saying that as a Dooom sayer, I'm saying it because I actually just did something very similar to what the OP was saying... but legally.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I sincerely hope that "pay to win" never happens. Dividing the community into haves and have nots based on who has the most disposable income is something that would seriously break the game for me. Games, to me, are a form of escapism. Making City of Heroes into a money syphon which constantly reminds me that most people are richer than me is NOT what I want out of "Freedom."
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I just returned from a long sting of being AFK for various reasons and when I got back I realized that I was only about 800m from being able to finish my troller set (final cost, 3.4m). I went to AP and called out my build and asked if anyone wanted help on their farm, I got a lot of replies since I'm fairly good. In the course of me standing still (I think I was watching South Park or something on Netflix) for about 8 hours, I was able to make up around 200m. So in four days of me farting around on my days off, not playing the game, just targeting a certain boss and then switching back to Southpark, I was able to pay to win. I've got all of my sets firmly in place and I'm rocking it out.
So if you think Pay to Win is bad, you should try out the AE system. I've always thought they needed more restrictions to that, but hey, at least I got my full set.
I have mixed feelings. I think it comes down to presentation. Players are typically against "play to win" but also tend to handwave the most egregious example of it: expansion packs.
The Going Rogue expansion pack enables two methods of acquiring IOs that are unavailable to other players. It is these mechanics that by and large have enabled me to acquire LotG IOs.
What is different about City of Heroes compared to typical graphical MMOs is that exploration is only a minor component. This was especially true of GR, which only featured newbie zones which were quickly outgrown, and most of the game action occurs in the original overworld which is still shared with the vanilla customers. What this means is that many of the expansion's gated features are abilities and access to powers/objects, not access to geographical areas.
The incarnate powers are also gated behind paying. You have to do something to earn them (torture yourself ;P) but they are not free.
So while selling IOs directly is likely to be resisted, selling access to a method that allows you to acquire them more easily is actually the established course.
That's because selling access to new game features that offer other ways to earn specific rewards is still far superior to outright selling the rewards themselves. This still requires the player to do something other than fling dollar bills at the game. It still requires the player to play the game to earn the reward. There are various degrees of this, obviously. Claiming the reward from in-game e-mail is still technically playing the game, but is worlds apart from grinding Alignment Merits for a week or two.
What concerns me, though, is that this risks breaking a promise, specifically the one about my VIP status when that comes about. The developers more or less told us that we, the VIPs, are the important players that are going to be catered to. Obviously, with the expectation that some will pay more than others, some will have more stuff. But the point is that the having or not having of this stuff cannot and should not make one "more VIP" than another. Buying costumes, buying convenience, buying early access, all of those things can be considered perks, but don't mark the difference between a VIP and a peasant.
Having large stocks of game-altering, overpowering "stuff," however, does. I want the game to specifically PREVENT people with too much disposable income from being more VIP than the supposed VIPs paying a monthly subscription. Because if that's not true, then how is a VIP a very important person if other people are so much more important because they're willing to shell out more cash?
There's running a business, yes, but then there's also business ethics. I stay with a game because it's a good game, but I subscribe to a game because I feel I'm being treated fairly. Opening up a "pay to win" shop and making me feel like I can never pay enough to be truly important will be a massive step DOWN in service from what I get now, which is to say that as long as I pay my subscription, I'm exactly as important as every other user out there. This should not change.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't know what drops your crafting, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a bunch of my crafted set IOs sit and sit and sit in the AH waiting to be bought, and that was selling them at 5 inf a pop to just get the first bid in.|
Originally Posted by Braije
They already do! IO drops fall out of the sky for a reason. Craft them! Slot your character properly with them ( I do this all the time) If they don't suit the build, then craft them anyway and make some influ/infamy.
Sadly, your incoming gamer is not going to be so willing to do so. Hell, you're current average gamer isn't either. Time is money! |
Unless you mean the Generic IO recipes, which don't see for all that much unless crafted, but then looking at the prices of some of that salvage needed, you'd make just as much profit selling the level 50 generic recipe to the vendor.
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Before crafting anything it's a good idea to look to see if anyone is bidding on the item. If there are no bidders no one wants it. Crafting something no one wants is a waste of time. Just sell the recipe at a vendor.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I don't know what drops your crafting, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a bunch of my crafted set IOs sit and sit and sit in the AH waiting to be bought, and that was selling them at 5 inf a pop to just get the first bid in.
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Let me put it simply: If this happens, I am essentially done with this game. Period. I will spend my money on console games.
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Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
Since we are going to the "buy what you want" system, I would like to be able to purchase enhancements with the points from the Freedom system. I would be fine with pricing them such that $5 is the equivalent of a LOTG Global Recharge. Pro-rate Freedom Points based on what the Reward Merit costs are.
I have about 30 characters who want 5 LOTG Global recharges each, and I am an altaholic who never does any task forces at all except on my badge character. So I never earn Reward Merits. So it takes me 20 days of doing tips every single day to earn 5 LOTGs for a character. So frankly, I'd just like to spend $750 on their points system and buy 150 LOTGs for my various 30 characters that I like to flit between, and be done. Maybe another $250-$500 in Freedom Points to pick up all the Basilisk Gazes I would probably like (hey, I like controllers). Just a suggestion. I'd rather spend the money on that than on an iPad2 or a Xoom, if I'm going to get myself a birthday or Christmas "happy". Lewis /flame on! |
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I understand, maybe I should have elaborated. I hope the F2P'ers don't have that mentality, because if they do they'll never become Premium or even VIP players.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
F2P players aren't willing to spend anything. They want to play without making any financial commitment.
Premium players are the ones willing to open their wallets. |
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Indeed, I craft commons at times just to have it work towards the badges to earn portable workbenches on characters. I sell them, store them in the base for other SG members to use or I use them on my own characters. If you play the market enough you know almost immediately what is worth crafting and what is just best sold at the vendors.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Before crafting anything it's a good idea to look to see if anyone is bidding on the item. If there are no bidders no one wants it. Crafting something no one wants is a waste of time. Just sell the recipe at a vendor.
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Champion Server-"Play like a Champion today!"
"True courage is not the brutal force of vulgar heroes, but in the firm resolve of virtue and reason." - Sir Alfred North Whitehead
Don't like the idea of being able to buy that stuff at all. To Drop $750 for LOTG and Basilisks whatever is ridiculous. F2P doesn't mean you should be able to buy yourself that kind of stuff, should still need to be earned.
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How about they sell the items at a 1 for 1 price. 1 Inf = 1 dollar. That way it will limit the people that buy them from the store will still feel like they are earning them. |
Originally Posted by thgebull0425
Don't like the idea of being able to buy that stuff at all. To Drop $750 for LOTG and Basilisks whatever is ridiculous. F2P doesn't mean you should be able to buy yourself that kind of stuff, should still need to be earned.
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Inspirations
Temporary powers
Veteran powers (not badges)
Respecs
Tailor tokens
Costume pieces
Pool A-E pre-crafted untradeable enhancemens
New pre-crafted untradeable enhancements
New inspirations
Enhancement-unslotting
Astral merits
Empyrean merits
Reward merits
Favor of the Well
Notice of the Well
+Loot/XP drops
Halloween costume toggles
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Anything that can be sold on the market is bad. That means inspirations, loot table benefits, and reward/incarnate merits as those can be turned into recipes.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Inspirations
Temporary powers Veteran powers (not badges) Respecs Tailor tokens Costume pieces Pool A-E pre-crafted untradeable enhancemens New pre-crafted untradeable enhancements New inspirations Enhancement-unslotting Astral merits Empyrean merits Reward merits Favor of the Well Notice of the Well +Loot/XP drops Halloween costume toggles |
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Since crafting and marketing are important mini games that keep a healthy chunk of any mmo's player base playing I doubt this will happen.
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That list is a condensed form of another list from early May, long before CoH: Freedom was announced. It was an investigation into NCSoft's partnership with PlaySpan. The items in the list appeared alongside the patch to add NCSoft Launcher support.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Anything that can be sold on the market is bad. That means inspirations, loot table benefits, and reward/incarnate merits as those can be turned into recipes.
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That's not to say everything in that list will make it to Live, but you can bet those things have been heavily considered. Feedback in beta will very likely alter things.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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