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I think the fact that they are willing to change for Blaster means they know the set isn't fitting. Yeah, this is probably not cottage rule but if they changed something from an original set, they could re-name it. In fact, 3 powers are different in Blaster's Dark Blast. That's how much they are willing to change what's in the original set. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Cottage Rule only applies in terms of affecting existing characters. There are no existing Dark Blasters so when Proliferating the set there's no Cottage Rule violation if you change the powers around a bit. Je Saist gave a good rule of thumb elsewhere, if the change means characters slottings become invalid or ineffective then it's probably violating the cottage rule.
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Propel makes sense in Controller design but not in Dominator. The attack is so slow and the damage isn't impressive for the time spent. I wish they could have taken it out or made it better.
I once suggest that they classify all the "Objects" in two types. Smaller objects like Chair do normal damage but large objects like a Car do more damage. The more damage part can be a "proc". However, some people told me that what I see on my screen (the object) is different from what other see on the screen?
(They've also changed Energy Aura like 2 times and this time they actually changed the powers and not just add some effects. Cottage Rule is meant to be broken if certain things just don't work right and I give credits to the current power team that is not so stubborn. Blaster could easily get the original Dark Blast and explain it as "control heavy at the sacrifice of burst and single damage, so if your Blaster doesn't have good burst damage with Dark Blast, suck it!
)
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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This is correct. Back when I used propel I'd get comments from people who weren't familiar with the power, that would go like "omg you just threw a forklift at him, awesome!!!" when I saw, say, a chair... or my personal favorite, a lamp.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I once suggest that they classify all the "Objects" in two types. Smaller objects like Chair do normal damage but large objects like a Car do more damage. The more damage part can be a "proc". However, some people told me that what I see on my screen (the object) is different from what other see on the screen?
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I don't like the idea though because giving a power that takes so long to cast a random effect seems like it would be frustrating.
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I just felt a Car should do more damage than a Chair. That's all. lol |
Originally Posted by Machariel
This is correct. Back when I used propel I'd get comments from people who weren't familiar with the power, that would go like "omg you just threw a forklift at him, awesome!!!" when I saw, say, a chair... or my personal favorite, a lamp.
I don't like the idea though because giving a power that takes so long to cast a random effect seems like it would be frustrating. |
The random effect will make this power "interesting". Right now, it is only graphically satisfying, although many objects only hit a dead body....
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
If they were to just change Dimension Shift into an AoE version of Lift...man it would be my favorite set.
If that's the case I want it to pulse like Earthquake but way more often.
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See, I think that [Dimension Shift] should become a Toggle, and [Lift] should be made into a chain power á là [Jolting Chain]|
Originally Posted by Colossal
If they were to just change Dimension Shift into an AoE version of Lift...man it would be my favorite set.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Mind you I kinda agree that the Cottage Rule should just be a strong guideline and if a power needs to be changed in order to bring a set up to par then it should be broken.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
They need to totally throw the cottage rule out the window on this one.. Every control set is better than Gravity... every one... It doesnt have to be the BEST one.. but it could be a LOT less mediocre..too much hard control.. one hard control thats hard to use...no soft control that anyone wants...
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If Gravity is brought up above something else, then all of the dedicated players of that set will get all mad that now THEIR set is the worst, and that from that fact alone, it needs to be improved. I guess my point is that just because a set is the worst at something, doesn't automatically mean it needs to be improved... there will ALWAYS be a worst no matter what the Devs do unless they make all of them the same.
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Eh that would slightly improve things but I just don't see the use in an AoE intangible power 95% of the time (at least for my playstyle, I don't solo much). Any power that is only useful less than 10% of the time isn't worth it IMO.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
See, I think that [Dimension Shift] should become a Toggle, and [Lift] should be made into a chain power á là [Jolting Chain]
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Plus I just really want an AoE lift power rather than a chain because it would just be cooler. Just take out Dimension Shift, give it any old name (Mass/Group Lift would even be fine), put it on a 30-45 second recharge timer and call it a day. And the whole "chain" effect makes sense thematically for electric, but for gravity it really doesn't. I'm sure there is a way you could spin it to fit thematically for gravity but everyone would know it doesn't really fit.
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While I agree to a degree with this, Gravity has been lacking for SO LONG that it's ABOUT DAMNED TIME some other set was at the bottom for a bit.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
First, see my above comment. Secondly, there will ALWAYS be a set that is the worst. That's just the nature of ranking things.
If Gravity is brought up above something else, then all of the dedicated players of that set will get all mad that now THEIR set is the worst, and that from that fact alone, it needs to be improved. I guess my point is that just because a set is the worst at something, doesn't automatically mean it needs to be improved... there will ALWAYS be a worst no matter what the Devs do unless they make all of them the same. |
Yes, improving Gravity just means there'd be a new "worst" control set, but such is the nature of MMOs. "Someone's gotta be at the bottom" would be/is an exceedingly poor excuse for not improving an under-performer.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Originally Posted by Colossal
If they were to just change Dimension Shift into an AoE version of Lift...man it would be my favorite set.
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Same here. I know Dimension Shift has a use but it is super situational. I think some people are finding "excuses" to pretend that this power is useful but it is not.
I want a power that I can use REGULARLY. The honest truth is I've only used it 3 times that I can remember on my perma Gravity/Fiery and each time I used it, I needed to explain to people what happened because the mobs can't be attack even though THEY ARE ATTACKING. It is confusing as well.
Here is how I see it:
1. Make Propel a WHOLE LOT better to the point that it is worth it to take it as a control power or as a heavy hitter or both. Right now, it is neither.
Or
2. Change Dimension Shift to something that can be used regularly and not confuse people.
If they can do one of the above, then I would consider Gravity pretty balanced for Dominator. It doesn't need to be the best but it shouldn't have two powers that are sooooo skippable and have questionable uses on Dominator.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
The idea of making Dimension Shift to a pbaoe Toggle that has a chance to Lift Up nearby enemies is VERY INTERESTING.
I'll definitely try it and it sure beats a power that I don't use 99% of the gaming time.
However, Gravity set favors range-only style because its group hold is target aoe and Singy encourages you to stand behind it for extra protection.
Maybe just change it to Ice Slick kind of power but it checks for Knock Up instead of Knock Down? They can increase the recharge from 90s to 120s and decrease the frequency.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I'd prefer wormhole bunching mobs tightly into one small spot so we can AoE them to death. Now, that would be control. 
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Really just any form of an AoE lift would make the set far more enjoyable, I'd rather it NOT be a PBAoE (especially not a PBAoE toggle, I fear they would reduce it's usefullness to match that of World of Confusion) but rather a click power like Stalagmites, a "pulsing" field like Static Field, or something like Ice Slick.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
The idea of making Dimension Shift to a pbaoe Toggle that has a chance to Lift Up nearby enemies is VERY INTERESTING.
I'll definitely try it and it sure beats a power that I don't use 99% of the gaming time. However, Gravity set favors range-only style because its group hold is target aoe and Singy encourages you to stand behind it for extra protection. Maybe just change it to Ice Slick kind of power but it checks for Knock Up instead of Knock Down? They can increase the recharge from 90s to 120s and decrease the frequency. |
I feel propel needs tweaking as well, I would just like to see it's cast time brought down to 2-2.5 seconds and changing the KB to KD is all I need. Lift and Propel are two of the coolest and most unique powers in the game. Those and Wormhole are the reason for playing the set (and Singy, but he's not as unique- as every set save Mind gets a pet) so it would be nice if Propel was made actually useful and instead of a dumb AoE Intangibility we got an AoE version of lift. Those two changes would make Gravity at least on par with some other sets while still keeping it's unique feel.
Maybe if [Dimension Shift] were made into both a Toggle AND to mimic [Detention Field] more, it would be great... since Detained enemies are immobile and don't attack or anything. And on my Troller, [Detention Field]'s effect is made as obvious as possible (bright orange currently).
As for the AoE [Lift]? I really think that [Lift] itself should be changed to be a Chain as I said earlier (no need to change the icon then) and should simply do less damage to each target effected. This would solidly increase the amount of fast recharging controls Gravity has at its disposal.
Then, if you alter Wormhole to apply the stun FIRST and then notify mobs they have been hit... remove the KB from the power and you are golden! Oh, and significantly decrease the animation time on [Propel]... possibly make it a small radius Cone?
Thus, you would have:
- One ST Immob
- One ST Hold
- One Chain/AoE KU power (soft-control)
- One AoE Stun/Enemy Teleport
- One AoE Hold (fairly long recharge)
- One AoE Immob (short recharge)
- One High Dmg Cone (unique to Control Sets)
- Singularity (an awesome Controller pet no matter how ya slice it)
- And, one power that (at your command) can take an entire ambush out of the fight
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I think there would be a TON more use for it if you could turn it off at will. It would become, in some ways, better than [Detention Field] which is a power I LOVE... hell, without that power, I would not have been able to duo the Recluse's Victory AVs with a friend of mine.|
Originally Posted by Colossal
Eh that would slightly improve things but I just don't see the use in an AoE intangible power 95% of the time (at least for my playstyle, I don't solo much). Any power that is only useful less than 10% of the time isn't worth it IMO.
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| Plus I just really want an AoE lift power rather than a chain because it would just be cooler. Just take out Dimension Shift, give it any old name (Mass/Group Lift would even be fine), put it on a 30-45 second recharge timer and call it a day. And the whole "chain" effect makes sense thematically for electric, but for gravity it really doesn't. I'm sure there is a way you could spin it to fit thematically for gravity but everyone would know it doesn't really fit. |
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
While I agree to a degree with this, Gravity has been lacking for SO LONG that it's ABOUT DAMNED TIME some other set was at the bottom for a bit.
Yes, improving Gravity just means there'd be a new "worst" control set, but such is the nature of MMOs. "Someone's gotta be at the bottom" would be/is an exceedingly poor excuse for not improving an under-performer. |
And while "someone's gotta be at the bottom" is a horrendous reason not to improve a set, likewise "my set is the worst" isn't, in and of itself, a justification to improve it... since the fact remains that there will always be a worst set.
I've heard Lift right now's actually a power worth replacing the tier 1 Assault attacks with. If they changed it into an AoE, that niche would be lost. Not to mention change of IO slotting. In the end, AoE Lift would be too drastic a change for not enough justification.
Honestly, Gravity would become a lot more playable with just fixes to Propel and Wormhole, enough to almost completely fix it. Completely throwing Dimension Shift out and replacing it wouldn't be that disruptive, most likely. Far less disruptive than an AoE change to Lift.
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Actually, it is, provided the improvements don't bring it to above the level of the 'best' set and therefore serve to bring all of the sets closer together in power level, which, presumably, is the goal of balancing.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
...likewise "my set is the worst" isn't, in and of itself, a justification to improve it... since the fact remains that there will always be a worst set.
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IMO:
Lift, Crush, Gravity Distortion, Crushing Field, Gravity Distortion Field, and Singularity are all perfectly fine and can be left alone.
Propel needs to cast faster, Wormhole needs a variety of minor problems fixed (aggroing before the stun happens, long casting time, teleport happens before power finishes so queueing up nontargeted PBAoEs doesn't work), and Dimension Shift could be reworked entirely in a variety of different ways, or, once Propel and Wormhole are fixed, just be left alone.
Personally I'd still like to see it turned into a single-target intangible.
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I'm not saying Lift should be changed. I'm saying Dimension Shift should be changed to an AoE version of lift. Making normal lift a chain power makes no sense thematically for gravity like it does for Elec so I wouldn't like to see that. Also a chain is not nearly as effecting as a normal AoE power. |
Originally Posted by Alef_infinity
I've heard Lift right now's actually a power worth replacing the tier 1 Assault attacks with. If they changed it into an AoE, that niche would be lost. Not to mention change of IO slotting. In the end, AoE Lift would be too drastic a change for not enough justification.
Honestly, Gravity would become a lot more playable with just fixes to Propel and Wormhole, enough to almost completely fix it. Completely throwing Dimension Shift out and replacing it wouldn't be that disruptive, most likely. Far less disruptive than an AoE change to Lift. |
I get what Thirty's saying about turning Dimension Shift into a toggle so it can be turned on/off. That would make using it teams less confusing for everyone and slightly more effective..but really it would still be the most useless and situational AoE control in any of the controller sets. I'm sure you (Thirty) can make intangibility work well but for most playstyles it's largely useless and any other form of control would be better (The AoE hold is just as good for stopping ambushes and does not cause your teammates to waste endurance trying to attack them, even when you have it obviously colored there will be accidental targeting of effected mobs). My proposed changes to gravity wouldn't change the sets unique feel, you'd have:
ST Lift, ST immob, ST hold, ST (or possibly cone) faster animating KD power (propel), AoE immob, AoE Lift (pulsing field a la Earthquake or targeted AoE a la Stalagmites prefferably), AoE hold, AoE Stun (wormhole), Pet (Singy).
Wormhole's numbers could use a little tweaking as well but I would be fine if it just did not cause aggro and changing it's KB to KD would be a cherry on top.
Oh, okay. I wouldn't object to turning Dimension Shift into AoE Lift. Really, all Gravity Control needs are fixes to Propel's animation time, something to make Dimension Shift a bit more useful (even just turning it into a ST Intangible would be a notable improvement in usability) and Wormhole's animation time, aggro timing, and radius as well as possible swapping with Dimension Shift's place in the levels.
Plus giving Controllers the damage fix that Dominator Lift got. =P
But yeah, those would make Gravity just fine as a set.
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But this was specifically done just for doms to counteract the "gravity is better for controllers" argument. It is funny that people still make the argument though and seemingly have completely forgotten about the lift fix. "The grass is always greener on the other side," and human psychology is more at play than anything else here I think with all of the complaints.|
Originally Posted by Alef_infinity
Plus giving Controllers the damage fix that Dominator Lift got. =P
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I honestly think many people who complain about gravity just don't really play the set or want it to be another fire control or something. It really only needs very minor fixes to be absolutely competitive.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
I have done both a Grav/FF Controller and a Grav/Fire Dom.
Gravity has it's weak points, but the only one I really noticed in Doms was propel and that was just ecause of damage and the slow animation not building domination effectively.
Dimension shift is no more effective or less annoying on a Controller as it is on a Dom.
Propel is always too slow and while the damage on a troller is better than a dom it's slow and necro kills to often. However works well on AV's and EB's and has it's place. But there is no point in thinking it's better on a controller if the enemy you fling it at is dead already which you will see a lot if it is an essential part of your chain in later levels.
The Imobs and Hard Controls are amazing on both doms and controllers.
Worm Hole in Domination has a much better chance of landing on a Dom.
Im not seeing much of a concern here? Grav is not resisted well by enemies amd Doms make it much less resistable in Domination.
So generally speaking I can't say that Grav is bad. It has no sleep, confuse, or fast attack method, but at least 3 skippable powers, freeing up more attacks from assault.
(Warning. Not trying to open a can of worms, or derail this thread...But)
Generally speaking, I cannot, and I mean cannot understand why the people who freak about Gravs Control issues want Illusion as a Primary for
Doms.
It has even less control and powers that could be effected by domination, minus a slight boost to DPS. Unless you break the signature powerset that is illusion by removing one of the invis. Because the pets wont or should not be causing domination effects considdering the powers they use are NOT coming from you.
So...I just don't get why people say Grav is bad, but desire illusion.
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Oh, I agree that it only really need minor fixes, too. All the propositions about major shifts to the set, and I'd be happy with just a couple of animation time fixes (on Propel and Wormhole) and some power tweaks to Wormhole. Plus ST Dimension Shift or I suppose I can just skip it. Hell, even if they only fix Wormhole, it would make the set drastically more playable on my Grav/Storm controller. That's how little it would take.|
Originally Posted by _Ail_
But this was specifically done just for doms to counteract the "gravity is better for controllers" argument. It is funny that people still make the argument though and seemingly have completely forgotten about the lift fix. "The grass is always greener on the other side," and human psychology is more at play than anything else here I think with all of the complaints.
I honestly think many people who complain about gravity just don't really play the set or want it to be another fire control or something. It really only needs very minor fixes to be absolutely competitive. |
I just thought the damage increase to Lift would be nice. I guess I'm just too used to Levitate on Mind Control. Do you have a link or reference on it being done specifically for Dominators for that reasoning, by the way? I had assumed it was just an oversight.
I wish dimension shift would simply be replaced by a power called gravity shift that functioned exactly like ice slick but that had no visual effects other than the foes bouncing up and down. Of course that might make ice control look silly. So we could change ice controls ranged sleep to a ranged hold but leave it on the same timer it has, and leave glacier in the set. Make ice the king of aoe holds.
Hey a guy can dream, cant he?
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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Thanks for keeping me honest. |
Originally Posted by Alef_infinity
Oh, I agree that it only really need minor fixes, too. All the propositions about major shifts to the set, and I'd be happy with just a couple of animation time fixes (on Propel and Wormhole) and some power tweaks to Wormhole. Plus ST Dimension Shift or I suppose I can just skip it. Hell, even if they only fix Wormhole, it would make the set drastically more playable on my Grav/Storm controller. That's how little it would take.
I just thought the damage increase to Lift would be nice. I guess I'm just too used to Levitate on Mind Control. Do you have a link or reference on it being done specifically for Dominators for that reasoning, by the way? I had assumed it was just an oversight. |
You are right, it is all speculation.http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...highlight=lift
And the like is all I get. I looked again through Castle's various posts in threads around the time of the dominator revamp and he doesn't seem to have let himself get pinned down. Of course, new devs now anyway so I am not sure what a quote from him would have meant now regardless.
You do get all of those "gravity is better for controllers" arguments that keep popping up though (like now in the controller forum) that conveniently forget that lift is better for dominators.
I do think it is interesting though that people keep harping about how gimp gravity is and forget that as far as damage per activation time goes, lift is pretty awesome right now for dominators.
Yeah, propel and dimension shift are lackluster/situational, but all of the older sets have the more throw away powers. Smoke and bonfire aren't all that great to many people, but that doesn't prevent fire control overall from being fine.
As others have said, maybe just some slight tweaks to make wormhole better and everything should be fine (if it isn't already.)
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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Yes, Lift is now a decent and fast and very good soft control power. That's why I chose Gravity/Fiery. I only need attack chain of Lift, Fire Blast and Blaze. I'm all range and I hover in air for extra protection.|
Originally Posted by Alef_infinity
I've heard Lift right now's actually a power worth replacing the tier 1 Assault attacks with. If they changed it into an AoE, that niche would be lost. Not to mention change of IO slotting. In the end, AoE Lift would be too drastic a change for not enough justification.
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Lift doesn't need a buff, which I agree.
I think people just want to replace Propel/Dimension shift or both with something that we can use more regularly and effectively. Group Lift is an excellent idea because I just love that animation so much, watching them get lifted up and fall. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Propel is just too cool and unique to the set to get rid of. I'd rather see it buffed/changed for Doms to make it worth taking. A damage increase, change it into a cone, give it an irresistible KB that can knockdown even AVs, etc.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
The knockback on wormhole is kind of a pain. At least it's not a random direction of knockback - they get knocked back away from you - but that does mean that you need to use the environment to make the most of it. This isn't inherently bad but it does make an already finicky power more so.
But by far, the worst thing about Wormhole is that the teleport happens just after the power finishes casting. This means that if you try to do something cute, like wormhole an entire mob onto you so that you can follow up with a short-range PBAoE, like, say, SOUL DRAIN, what ends up happening is that you start wormhole, queue up Soul Drain, and then Soul Drain goes off without hitting anything right as the teleport from Wormhole finally brings all of them over.
It still works if you have a PBAoE that requires a target (Thunder Strike, Fire Ball, etc).
I've started to really, really like Crushing Field though. It casts fast, recharges quickly, and can take a whopping four damage procs in it (although 3 of them are smashing or lethal). Very useful way for Grav Doms to actually add some decent damage on teams.