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Yeah but you are complaining about it on undoubtedly the most overpowered controller power set combination in the game right now. For every one person that doesn't like it and voices their opinion of their dislike there are probably 100 more that are in love with it and to busy playing the game to voice their love.|
Originally Posted by FrostyG
I don't find it at all fun in sleet...
It overwhelms everything else about my toon, which was carefully and meticulously crafted. My sleet now makes old PSW look like consume from a damage standpoint... I can walk through a x8 mission using one power and finish faster than I could before using my entire build (multi billion ill/cold that is undoubtedly faster than the vast majority of builds out there to begin with). That's fun for about 2 mins to me and then gets incredibly boring. No doubt it is terrific for actual attacks, it is a great and strong proc. But in fast ticking rains it is beyond ridiculous. |
I have issues with the rest of the Interface tree to be honest. The others are hot garbage. Let's take Diamagnetic for example. The -Reg got people excited...until they saw how horribly low the amount was. The the way AVs resist -reg it becomes pointless. If they had made the rest of Interface as good and balanced as everything in Destiny (omg everything in destiny is great) then we wouldn't be proclaiming how amazing reactive is (or complaining). We would be going "omg I am worried what we are going to be fighting because HOLY CRAP I'M SO AWESOME RIGHT NOW". People should feel that way about ALL of Interface. Not just one part of it. People feel that way with Destiny though. I have T3-T4 versions of every Destiny and they are all amazing.
I understand it may seem extremely powerful, but isn't it just stacking up the dot to the 5 limit faster than it would be if you had to click on 5 individual powers, or is it somehow breaking the rules?
I've used it in my Rain of Fire and it was very powerful. I just don't know how they can fix it without fundamentally changing the way psuedopets work or the way the proc works or just cherry picking certain powers to gimp on an individual basis, which doesn't seem fair to me. Didn't they test this issue for months? Didn't they already say it's working as intended? As long as these psuedopet powers aren't breaking the 5 limit stack rules I really don't think it needs to be changed.
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I don't really think they are. All they do is quickly stack the maximum number of DoTs on everything, but on a team anything strong enough to last more than a few seconds against the standard AoE barrage is going to have a max stack of DoTs on it anyway just from all the attacks it'll be taking. About the only thing rains + reactive procs do is let you solo normal mobs easier, but since Incarnate abilities are supposed to be Phenomenal Cosmic Power we kind of should do that...
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Originally Posted by JayboH
I know. Rains MAYBE, but not auras people. Auras are not broken, but rains might be.
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Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
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I'm definitely aware of where ill/cold lines up in the grand scheme. I'll just leave it at that.|
Originally Posted by TommyTrD
Yeah but you are complaining about it on undoubtedly the most overpowered controller power set combination in the game right now. For every one person that doesn't like it and voices their opinion of their dislike there are probably 100 more that are in love with it and to busy playing the game to voice their love.
I have issues with the rest of the Interface tree to be honest. The others are hot garbage. Let's take Diamagnetic for example. The -Reg got people excited...until they saw how horribly low the amount was. The the way AVs resist -reg it becomes pointless. If they had made the rest of Interface as good and balanced as everything in Destiny (omg everything in destiny is great) then we wouldn't be proclaiming how amazing reactive is (or complaining). We would be going "omg I am worried what we are going to be fighting because HOLY CRAP I'M SO AWESOME RIGHT NOW". People should feel that way about ALL of Interface. Not just one part of it. People feel that way with Destiny though. I have T3-T4 versions of every Destiny and they are all amazing. |
But the power of ill/cold just highlights how out of whack this proc is in rains. It overshadows the most powerful controller build just by using sleet. Where does that leave cold and storm trollers that aren't nearly as strong? What of all those toons that don't have a rain power? Should having access to a rain power be a given right to have a nuke that is up every spawn?
It is broken in rains, it is really that simple. It will be altered at some point. If you are enjoying it (I think it is fantastic in non-rains, strong, but not ridiculously so) then all the power to you. But don't be too surprised when it finally gets altered.
I'm not sure I necessarily agree that the other interface choices are that disappointing. I mean compared to reactive yes definitely. I mean diamagnetic in a rain gives you what 30% tohit debuff? That is as strong as slotted defender darkest night.. If reactive wasn't overwhelmingly OP'd in a rain, that would be a very attractive aspect to add to a power like sleet.
Same goes for the damage debuff of paralytic. In something that insta layers it to the limit it is indeed very good. Actually same for the -rech (not sure of the strength of the -special) of gravimetric.
With the way rains function with these procs they are all actually very very good (or at least I consider being as strong as a signature defender power good). but you'd be a fool to take it over the ability to turn that same power into an every spawn nuke...
*the -regen proc takes flak. I suspect given the strength of the other debuffs found in interface that the decimal is in the wrong spot. Fully layerd it is probably meant to be ~600% -regen (or slightly better than something like lingering rad).
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Would you agree that having a rain type power is a large advantage over not having one?|
Originally Posted by StrykerX
I don't really think they are. All they do is quickly stack the maximum number of DoTs on everything, but on a team anything strong enough to last more than a few seconds against the standard AoE barrage is going to have a max stack of DoTs on it anyway just from all the attacks it'll be taking. About the only thing rains + reactive procs do is let you solo normal mobs easier, but since Incarnate abilities are supposed to be Phenomenal Cosmic Power we kind of should do that...
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When you look across the game what 'damaging attacks' are capable of being fired off 5 times per second?
Maybe a MM with all pets attacking can stream attacks close to that fast? But in a large aoe with 16 (or more given how rains work) targets easily put to the max limit.
What's the possibility that was overlooked when they put these powers into the game? I mean take a look across the game, most toons attack at a rate in excess of once per every 1.5second (proly closer to once every 2 seconds. A rain power hits 7-10 times in that same time frame.
Logically, if it is actually working as intended in a rain then it would stand to reason that it is under-performing in virtually all other powers. The rate of occurrence is just that far apart.
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I would argue that the power is working exactly the way it was designed to work and made it all the way through beta and had previously been stated to be working as intended. The reactive proc is exceptionally powerful in AoEs and even more so in rain type powers. That said, as far as we know there's never been a quantitative analysis (though I'm sure Arcana is hard at work with it) over how much this aspect of the power actually puts players at an "advantage" over others. |
Originally Posted by FrostyG
Would you agree that having a rain type power is a large advantage over not having one?
When you look across the game what 'damaging attacks' are capable of being fired off 5 times per second? Maybe a MM with all pets attacking can stream attacks close to that fast? But in a large aoe with 16 (or more given how rains work) targets easily put to the max limit. What's the possibility that was overlooked when they put these powers into the game? I mean take a look across the game, most toons attack at a rate in excess of once per every 1.5second (proly closer to once every 2 seconds. A rain power hits 7-10 times in that same time frame. Logically, if it is actually working as intended in a rain then it would stand to reason that it is under-performing in virtually all other powers. The rate of occurrence is just that far apart. |
If you cherry pick the scenario, like an AE ambush map, yes it's incredibly impressive due to the fact that it can recycle targets faster than anything and you're surrounded by 100 enemies. When you're looking at an actual team play scenario there's a pretty good chance that the combined AoE assault of 8 people will wipe out the majority of the spawn near instantly. In fact, I know they do because I've been running trials constantly and these big groups of level 54 mobs are being knocked over like crash test dummies 2 seconds into the fight. You'd be lucky to even activate your rain power before everything is 75% dead.
Against things that matter, like EBs and AVs, it's a nice thing to have but the DoT has no chance of matching the DPS you'd be getting out of even a bad ST attack chain.
An Elec/Shield scrapper can deal something in the area of 1200 damage in about 4 seconds flat with a combined lightning rod/Shield charge combo. That's under a BU and AAO but no other damage boosting abilities. A perma-dom dominator can have absolute control over everything at all times and unleash massive AoE damage at the same time and have amazing ST damage. I haven't played or heard of an AT powerset combo that is more "overpowered" than my Plant/Psi/Fire Dominator feels. A Bots/Traps MM can go AFK and solo AVs. SS/Fire/Mu Brutes can clear AE ambush maps at +4 with bosses turned on in 2 minutes. The point I'm making here is that while the Reactive proc in rain powers is very powerful, it's not an exclusive level of power and it's not even the most powerful thing you can have in the game.
The reactive proc damage is supposedly the result of a lot of testing and is working the way it was designed. It has a stack limit and rain powers are particularly useful at quickly getting there. The way I see it once you unlock a good portion of the incarnate slot powers everything is overpowered in normal play. Isn't that kind of the point?
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When I can walk up to a spawn of level 53 Longbow on my Demon/Storm MM (who is 50+1) with BG mode on, and hit Freezing Rain and then just stand there as every Lt and minion dies, something is not right.|
Originally Posted by StrykerX
I don't really think they are. All they do is quickly stack the maximum number of DoTs on everything, but on a team anything strong enough to last more than a few seconds against the standard AoE barrage is going to have a max stack of DoTs on it anyway just from all the attacks it'll be taking. About the only thing rains + reactive procs do is let you solo normal mobs easier, but since Incarnate abilities are supposed to be Phenomenal Cosmic Power we kind of should do that...
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While my experience leads me to believe the issue is only in fast ticking powers, it is possible the DoT proc itself is too strong even in regular powers.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It would be a moot argument because obviously the power is working as designed. The question is whether it is working as intended.|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
I would argue that the power is working exactly the way it was designed to work and made it all the way through beta and had previously been stated to be working as intended. The reactive proc is exceptionally powerful in AoEs and even more so in rain type powers. That said, as far as we know there's never been a quantitative analysis (though I'm sure Arcana is hard at work with it) over how much this aspect of the power actually puts players at an "advantage" over others.
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The fact that is has made it to live is indication of next to nothing about the future of this power. It will just join a long list of powers that players have indicated were not functioning in an ideal manner for the balance of the game only to later be adjusted when developer time/research permits.
Additionally the WAI statement by the devs has already partially been recanted and they are now "examining" it.
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| If you cherry pick the scenario, like an AE ambush map, yes it's incredibly impressive due to the fact that it can recycle targets faster than anything and you're surrounded by 100 enemies. When you're looking at an actual team play scenario there's a pretty good chance that the combined AoE assault of 8 people will wipe out the majority of the spawn near instantly. In fact, I know they do because I've been running trials constantly and these big groups of level 54 mobs are being knocked over like crash test dummies 2 seconds into the fight. You'd be lucky to even activate your rain power before everything is 75% dead. |
And indicating that teams kill stuff fast isn't really addressing the state of reactive+rains. Or at least no more than it addressed it with something like shieldcharge.
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| Against things that matter, like EBs and AVs, it's a nice thing to have but the DoT has no chance of matching the DPS you'd be getting out of even a bad ST attack chain. |
But a person wouldn't 'just' cast sleet against an AV and call it a day (although you can now do that against many normal spawns).
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| An Elec/Shield scrapper can deal something in the area of 1200 damage in about 4 seconds flat with a combined lightning rod/Shield charge combo. That's under a BU and AAO but no other damage boosting abilities. A perma-dom dominator can have absolute control over everything at all times and unleash massive AoE damage at the same time and have amazing ST damage. I haven't played or heard of an AT powerset combo that is more "overpowered" than my Plant/Psi/Fire Dominator feels. A Bots/Traps MM can go AFK and solo AVs. SS/Fire/Mu Brutes can clear AE ambush maps at +4 with bosses turned on in 2 minutes. The point I'm making here is that while the Reactive proc in rain powers is very powerful, it's not an exclusive level of power and it's not even the most powerful thing you can have in the game. |
Many of the pseudo pets attack 7-10x faster than the typical player powers. To combat this aspect in the past they put the 10 sec limiter on these kind of powers (because rains would have always been broken with any of the procs if allowed to fire it on each tic...think back to old pgt kind of broken except maybe moreso...). On the interface procs they have instead implement a stacking limit (though this isn't new as we already saw similar in achilies for instance). If you are allowed to stack the proc 6 times and the pseudo pet attacks 7+x faster than the average power it will just default down to stacking/attacking 6x faster with this proc than the avg powers.
Attempting to balance around that vast of a performance difference would be challenging to say the least.
Even the notion of it being ok in a team because you can't have multiple copies of it still doesn't explain away why some powers are permitted to wield the proc with such greater efficacy where the largest difference one would expect to see would be between a fast set like iceblast and a slow set like broadsword...which wouldn't even be a factor of 2x as fast.
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| The reactive proc damage is supposedly the result of a lot of testing and is working the way it was designed. It has a stack limit and rain powers are particularly useful at quickly getting there. The way I see it once you unlock a good portion of the incarnate slot powers everything is overpowered in normal play. Isn't that kind of the point? |
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As I'm reading some of these comments, a thought comes to me - |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
When I can walk up to a spawn of level 53 Longbow on my Demon/Storm MM (who is 50+1) with BG mode on, and hit Freezing Rain and then just stand there as every Lt and minion dies, something is not right.
While my experience leads me to believe the issue is only in fast ticking powers, it is possible the DoT proc itself is too strong even in regular powers. |
We may end up with a fix that balances "Too strong" in normal content (like what you mention) but "just right" or "not quite strong enough (unless added to other powers) for Incarnate content.
I'd *think,* if that's the case, we'll see more things just fall under the level shift style mechanic (post-Alpha.) X power does # ticks of # damage in normal content, but in Incarnate flagged content, it does #++ damage for #++ ticks. (Or whatever the individual power is going to be - Lore pets having nfaster recharge in Incarnate content, for instance, or whatever the later ones will be.)
This would still give the player the feeling of "I'm an Incarnate and more powerful than a regular 50" in normal content (and keeping the "shifted everywhere" Alpha shift of +1,) while letting Incarnate content be just that much tougher - because it's designed for these.
(Now, when it comes to things like world events - I don't know how it'd work, if we see any.)
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I stopped reading after this part. I don't say this often, but you are wrong and the opinion you have is wrong.|
Originally Posted by FrostyG
I'm not sure I necessarily agree that the other interface choices are that disappointing.
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Honestly, LTs/Minions are a joke before/after I19. If those mobs are what you are basing your opinion on then go +4x8 and load up boss/EB/AVs. There is a difficulty slider in this game and I believe a lot of people have forgotten about it.
If you were solo-ing AVs before this barely changes anything and it allows some ATs tosolo AVs now. I don't see a problem with this. I'm fairly sure the new content down the line will be extremely challenging and make the current perception of reactive a joke.
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That is unfortunate as you seem very undereducated in this area. But if your baseline is a team sized nuke that is up every 15 seconds, then everything under performs - including reactive for anyone lacking a rain.|
Originally Posted by TommyTrD
I stopped reading after this part. I don't say this often, but you are wrong and the opinion you have is wrong.
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Edit: maybe content will scale up but if it makes reactive rain look weak then pretty much every existing power in the game will be weak. Which wouldnt be very good game design.
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Cute.|
Originally Posted by FrostyG
That is unfortunate as you seem very undereducated in this area. But if your baseline is a team sized nuke that is up every 15 seconds, then everything under performs - including reactive for anyone lacking a rain.
Edit: maybe content will scale up but if it makes reactive rain look weak then pretty much every existing power in the game will be weak. Which wouldnt be very good game design. |
If it wasn't already clear by my post before, that was my semi-polite way of me saying "you don't know what you are talking about". Either that or you come from the Emmert school of MMOs. Not sure which is worse.... People arguing about fun and ridiculous powers in a SUPER HERO MMO is always a bit mind boggling to me. So what if people mow through minions and LTs like they are quadriplegic kittens? When they square off against that Hero/AV class enemy that is NOT the case (most of the time). It's fun, working as intended (stated by the devs), and only being "looked at" now because of people crying on the forums.
Also I've been playing since launch and I know the mechanics of this game extremely well to say the least...people that play with me can account to this. I am well aware of how this proc works and I EXPECTED it to work this way in pseudo pets considering how these abilities have always worked. Personally I am very happy with reactive and it's hilarious and fun to make use of. Lots of people love it, especially for the fact it's given new life to some of the weaker builds. You like to argue "but woe are the people that don't have any rain powers!". My favorite character isn't my most powerful, not even really close, and he doesn't have any rain powers. That doesn't change my opinion on reactive. Not to mention my first 50 was a claws/regen...which if you know anything about the game you already understand why that character being horrible, comparably anyways, to every other scrapper secondary is disheartening. Yet you don't hear me crying to bring other secondaries in line to regen?
Don't cry for nerfs to one power. Cry for the others to get brought in line to be as good.
...even if you consider it a nuke why WOULDN'T you want that? That's AWESOME. Are we playing the same game? Because last time I checked AWESOME is....AWESOME. Not to mention nukes on AV/Heroes are "lol whatever".
The problem is balance, not power. Like how Ion used to be, i actually thought thats how powerful all of judgement SHOULD have been. But when one just is insanely better than all others, hands down. Something is wrong.
But the sad sad truth is that its easier for them to nerf one power than to buff everything else.
It's like what happened to superman. Compared to others in the DCU he was ******* epic (didnt he blow out a star at one point?) so he had to be taken down a notch. Or they could have made all the other superheroes in the DCU that powerful. Which is easier? (or for that matter makes more sense) But that power wouldn't be out of place in something like DBZ where 5 year olds can blow up planets.
But i dont see reactive being that much of a problem, on teams its not even close to as awesome as it is solo.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
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Allow me to ask this: how do you bring the other interface abilities to the same level of performance without adding DoT to them as well? In the presence of such outstanding damage other factors such as debuffs and control become sub-optimal. After all, why slow or debuff the tohit of an enemy that has 4 seconds to live?
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Originally Posted by TommyTrD
Don't cry for nerfs to one power. Cry for the others to get brought in line to be as good.
...even if you consider it a nuke why WOULDN'T you want that? That's AWESOME. Are we playing the same game? Because last time I checked AWESOME is....AWESOME. Not to mention nukes on AV/Heroes are "lol whatever". |
Really even reactive isnt all that usefull against minions/LTs. Yes that one app of rain can kill them but use another couple of AoEs (even more likely to happen on a team) stuff is dead before reactive did any high lvls of dmg. All of the paths are really AV killers imo.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
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Honestly that is a GREAT question. I'd start off making the debuffs unresistable though. I think a lot of people would love if the -regen portion of Diamagnetic was actually worth something.|
Originally Posted by ketch
Allow me to ask this: how do you bring the other interface abilities to the same level of performance without adding DoT to them as well? In the presence of such outstanding damage other factors such as debuffs and control become sub-optimal. After all, why slow or debuff the tohit of an enemy that has 4 seconds to live?
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edit: Actually you know what? make the de-buffs un-resistable AND give them all DOTs. Why not? You would definitely start seeing lots of variety with what people are picking. I know the question was "how without DOTs..." but I personally don't know without just flat out giving them a big old damage proc like some IOs do. Well, actually why not just do that also? Make them all fun.
*disclaimer* I did not put a lot of thought in to the edit portion...but hey, DOTs for all of interface.
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Chemtrails. Chemtrails! CHEMTRAILS!!!
| only being "looked at" now because of people crying on the forums. |
It doesn't even have to be a DoT attached to the other interface powers. Maybe it's just a very small single damage tick, maybe -end, or some other readily appreciable/noticeable proc. In my eyes, it's that the effects are so small, as well as being hard to tell if they've actually landed.
I think adding DoT to them all would be great. However, the DoT from ALL of them should probably stack together. So you still dont get more than 4 or so going at any given time.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
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Originally Posted by ultrawatt
I think adding DoT to them all would be great. However, the DoT from ALL of them should probably stack together. So you still dont get more than 4 or so going at any given time.
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Yeah, not a bad idea for a balancing standpoint. Everything gets a DOT so you have debuff diversity (what the devs want), people have incentive to take the different Interface stuff, and they still get the fun and hilarity of the damage DOTs for their interface without breaking trials.
With that said, I do still think the current effects for the other interface need to be either massively boosted or just flat out un-resisted.
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The 'why not' approach to game is slightly ahead of the 'throw a dart at a board' approach. Except occassionally throwing the dart results in a lucky good idea, whereas the 'why not'approach never does.|
Originally Posted by TommyTrD
Honestly that is a GREAT question. I'd start off making the debuffs unresistable though. I think a lot of people would love if the -regen portion of Diamagnetic was actually worth something.
edit: Actually you know what? make the de-buffs un-resistable AND give them all DOTs. Why not? You would definitely start seeing lots of variety with what people are picking. I know the question was "how without DOTs..." but I personally don't know without just flat out giving them a big old damage proc like some IOs do. Well, actually why not just do that also? Make them all fun. *disclaimer* I did not put a lot of thought in to the edit portion...but hey, DOTs for all of interface. |
Are single incarnate powers supposed to be better than entire powersets? Im curious because if they are a dev needs to be beat with a hose for that decision. I know that hey arent but im struggling to grasp why you think they should be - other than 'why not' of course.
Just adding DoT to everything then hoses those people that dont want DoT attached to all of their powers.
The more logical thing to do is make them so they are all viable choices so that a player picks what they want, not what they feel driven to take. Just like how fireblast and sonic blast and darkblast are all viable choices. One may be he clear choice in some cases while another is the better choice elsewhere.
I dont think making all mild variations of the same thing is the answer, nor is jacking them all.up to the debatable strength of reactive.
Then again i think reactive is fine under scenarios that dont distort he normal attack rate.
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OK you don't want DOTs. Easy enough...there are two paths for each tree. One path has DOTs the other doesn't. Fixed.
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Originally Posted by FrostyG
Just adding DoT to everything then hoses those people that dont want DoT attached to all of their powers.
The more logical thing to do is make them so they are all viable choices so that a player picks what they want, not what they feel driven to take. Just like how fireblast and sonic blast and darkblast are all viable choices. One may be he clear choice in some cases while another is the better choice elsewhere. I dont think making all mild variations of the same thing is the answer, nor is jacking them all.up to the debatable strength of reactive. Then again i think reactive is fine under scenarios that dont distort he normal attack rate. |
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Just to add a (belated) data point, fitting Rain of Fire into my Dominator's single-target rotation added ~60 DPS to my non-Lore Pylon run. The only difference between the two runs was the Rain; in both cases I had T4 Reactive.|
Originally Posted by FrostyG
You are woefully mistaken. You'd be casting sleet anyway, reactive actually turns it into one of (if not) the best dpa attack in your arsenal. Sleet casts in 2.25 seconds and can take out a +2 lut. It is astounding from a dpa, dpe, and dps standpoint.
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The problem here isn't Reactive or Rain powers. The problem is the interaction between them. People can reasonably argue one way or the other about the balance of various Interface powers, or about the balance of Reactive on its own, but those issues frankly border on irrelevance.
One can also reasonably argue that because Reactive DoTs don't stack beyond a certain point (IIRC 6), Reactive Rains are only overpowered in a solo context. And what does that really matter? After all, fully tricked out, I-20 Incarnates are already very powerful in generic content.
But not that powerful. My experience on a Mind Dominator -- not a character particularly well-suited to leverage rains, by the way -- shows that Reactive Interface basically turns any Rain power into a ranged, crashless Inferno available on an every-spawn basis.
Reactive Rains are too strong, not because the NPC opponents will object; not even because team Incarnate content will be trivialized. They're too strong because they give an absolutely astronomical and entirely arbitrary advantage to any old build with access to a Rain power. They make a mockery of almost every offensive build decision in a game the appeal of which, to many players, comes down to the rich complexity of crafting builds.
If you (you used generically) genuinely enjoy Reactive Rains in their present state, I can't tell you you're wrong. All I can tell you is that the mere existence of this quirk in the game mechanics has overwhelmed me with ambivalence about the game. I was gonna run my Tanker through the trials after I finished my Dom, but oh wait, why bother if he doesn't have a Rain power? Maybe I should run my Storm Controller instead -- but do I really want to spoil what is inherently a low-offense character by reveling in an anomaly that is almost guaranteed to be fixed?
Engaging games require meaningful choices. Meaningful choices require some measure of balance. One overwhelmingly powerful option is no option at all.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Depends on the pseudopet. Some pseudopets operate by having an autopower aura, other operate by making many, many, many separate attacks.
Although I did say that Rain powers are aura based, not all pseudopets.