Captain America vs. Wikileaks
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2011-04-30 12:54 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Just as well WikiLeaks didn't do that then.
| not if they're going to leave the names of confidential informants un-redacted. |
It's impressive how utterly infantile they make the whole thing look.
Yeah, if they wanted to make actual relevant political commentary it'd help if they mirrored what actually happened.
-k
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I agree you'd honestly think Cap would be more against the treatment of Bradley Manning the whistle blower in question. Especially since he too is a former soldier and was under the UCMJ.
So you mean you'll put down your rock, and I'll put down my sword; and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people?
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Well this time Cap can shove it up his ***.
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What Manning did was against the UCMJ and technically punishable by death in time of war (See: Afghanistan)
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Originally Posted by catsi563
I agree you'd honestly think Cap would be more against the treatment of Bradley Manning the whistle blower in question. Especially since he too is a former soldier and was under the UCMJ.
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Shame they forgot to declare war then really...
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
What Manning did was against the UCMJ and technically punishable by death in time of war (See: Afghanistan)
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Hey, people used to be executed because of shell shock, I'm sure one more unjust execution won't be a problem.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
What Manning did was against the UCMJ and technically punishable by death in time of war
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"Espionage as a capital offense. Capital punishment is authorized if the government alleges and proves that the offense directly concerned (1) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack, (2) war plans, (3) communications intelligence or cryptographic in-formation, or (4) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy. See R.C.M. 1004 concerning sentencing proceedings in capital cases."|
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
Shame they forgot to declare war then really...
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No need to have a formal declaration based on R.C.M 1004.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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What Manning allegedly did. He hasn't been tried yet. And the UCMJ also has a few things to say about how prisoners are to be treated.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
What Manning did was against the UCMJ and technically punishable by death in time of war (See: Afghanistan)
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There is no mistreatment of said soldier. He is currently on his way to Levenworth (or is already there), and is being treated as per regulation.
What he did was a heinous crime against his country.
To even remotely think that this wikilinks ordeal is good for anything is absurd. There are people dead now because of it. Not possibly dead, really dead. People that risked their lives for whatever reason, to bring truth to light.
These kinds of secrets must be kept because there are evil people in this world, and one of the ways to guard against it is with clandestine activity.
The only people served by wikilinks are the enemies of the western world. People that want to bring destruction, death and harm. Assange is not a hero, he is an accomplice of evil men around the world that live only for the atrocities they commit.
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So basically, "We can do what we like, because we're the righteous good guys and if anyone has proof that we're not, they're as evil as the eeevil badmen we're trying to stop."|
Originally Posted by Draugadan
There is no mistreatment of said soldier. He is currently on his way to Levenworth (or is already there), and is being treated as per regulation.
What he did was a heinous crime against his country. To even remotely think that this wikilinks ordeal is good for anything is absurd. There are people dead now because of it. Not possibly dead, really dead. People that risked their lives for whatever reason, to bring truth to light. These kinds of secrets must be kept because there are evil people in this world, and one of the ways to guard against it is with clandestine activity. The only people served by wikilinks are the enemies of the western world. People that want to bring destruction, death and harm. Assange is not a hero, he is an accomplice of evil men around the world that live only for the atrocities they commit. |
Also, I highly doubt anyone was killed because of these, all identifying information was removed. I think the newspaper's probably wouldn't have published them themselves otherwise.
Yeah, that's right, the newspapers published these things as well, or do you support censoring the press too "for the greater good"?
You should be angry at your own government for doing these things, not wikileaks for uncovering them.
Then again, I suppose ignorance is bliss.
Cap's view as presented in the comic seems in keeping with the character, irrespective of any similarities to real world situations.
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Meh. It doesn't do me any good to be angry at my government, what with being powerless to stop them.
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Originally Posted by Zikar
You should be angry at your own government for doing these things, not wikileaks for uncovering them.
Then again, I suppose ignorance is bliss. |
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Yes, because clearly, the United States is a terrible blight on the world, a blight that should be undermined at every opportunity. No government takes espionage lightly. Frankly, a lot of Americans are fed up with their government for various reasons, but it's hard not to get just a little defensive when everyone else in the world is piling on too. Our government is a damn sight better than most any of the alternatives; it takes an extraordinarily perverse view of history to harp endlessly on the USA when the far worse flaws of her enemies are staring everyone in the face. Or, perhaps it's just cowardice: after all, the USA never threatened to decapitate a cartoon artist over a caricature.|
Originally Posted by Zikar
So basically, "We can do what we like, because we're the righteous good guys and if anyone has proof that we're not, they're as evil as the eeevil badmen we're trying to stop."
Also, I highly doubt anyone was killed because of these, all identifying information was removed. I think the newspaper's probably wouldn't have published them themselves otherwise. Yeah, that's right, the newspapers published these things as well, or do you support censoring the press too "for the greater good"? You should be angry at your own government for doing these things, not wikileaks for uncovering them. Then again, I suppose ignorance is bliss. |
FWIW, my problem with Wikileaks is that it's so obviously fishing for embarrassing details to release. If there are real abuses to reveal, then fine, cloak yourself in that peculiarly European self-righteousness that comes after 70 years of relying on the United States to provide free defense. Go to town. But releasing private diplomatic dispatches? What higher purpose could it possibly serve to let the wider world know that a US Ambassador thinks another country's king is a dweeb? Those kinds of details are gratuitous, purely intended to undermine what could be important relationships.
This is typical balance of power stuff here; the United States is seen as worse than it is -- viewed with jealousy and/or fear -- simply because it is the most powerful. It's hard to do, but I'd urge you to sit down and think -- really think -- about what every other powerful nation in history has done by contrast. Or, if you prefer, just wait awhile. We may very well see what happens when the United States loses its place in the world sooner rather than later. That won't be a happy day, not even for the most wild-eyed UCLA poli-sci professor.
In the meanwhile, I'd like to give a hearty shout out to our forum-moderator overlords.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
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The thing is, if you're going to say you're the best country in the world, standing up for freedom and democracy, then you have to do that in private as well as public.
How can you expect any other country to take you seriously when you are doing all the thing you're telling them not to do?
There are some horrible, horrible countries and governments out there, a million times worse than the US, but that doesn't change the fact that these thing took place and one of the things that make our countries better is that when evil things are done, they should be exposed and punished, not covered up and allowed to continue.
Also, well done for slipping a "you're just jealous of us" message in there.
I don't hate America or Americans, far from it. But it often feels like you deceive yourselves into thinking America is pristine and shouldn't be criticised by outside sources.
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There's thousands and thousands of files, the "juicy gossip" gets attention because that's how the media operates. That's one of Wikileaks great features- it opens the information up to anyone, we don't have to wait for it to be filtered through the unreliable media.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
FWIW, my problem with Wikileaks is that it's so obviously fishing for embarrassing details to release. If there are real abuses to reveal, then fine, cloak yourself in that peculiarly European self-righteousness that comes after 70 years of relying on the United States to provide free defense. Go to town. But releasing private diplomatic dispatches? What higher purpose could it possibly serve to let the wider world know that a US Ambassador thinks another country's king is a dweeb? Those kinds of details are gratuitous, purely intended to undermine what could be important relationships.
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WTB: A moderator to close this stupid thread.
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As they say, just because everyone else might be worse than you, it doesn't mean that what you're doing is good |
Originally Posted by Obitus
Our government is a damn sight better than most any of the alternatives; it takes an extraordinarily perverse view of history to harp endlessly on the USA when the far worse flaws of her enemies are staring everyone in the face. Or, perhaps it's just cowardice: after all, the USA never threatened to decapitate a cartoon artist over a caricature.
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As for the Cap storyline, I suspect it's nothing more than a rather transparent attempt to increase sales, much in the same way as Supes' supposed plan to abandon his US citizenship because he keeps being associated with their actions.
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Absolutely they should be punished. And they almost always are punished. There's a difference between saying that the United States should act honorably and openly and saying that the private correspondence of individual diplomats should be open for all to see, though. Diplomacy is about putting a nice face on. How'd you like your boss to have access to recordings of your every off-the-cuff mutter?|
Originally Posted by Zikar
There are some horrible, horrible countries and governments out there, a million times worse than the US, but that doesn't change the fact that these thing took place and one of the things that make our countries better is that when evil things are done, they should be exposed and punished, not covered up and allowed to continue.
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| Also, well done for slipping a "you're just jealous of us" message in there. |
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| I don't hate America or Americans, far from it. But it often feels like you deceive yourselves into thinking America is pristine and shouldn't be criticised by outside sources. |
The world is not a pretty place.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
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Or viewed as a younger sibling, who is free of our baggage yet seems set on repeating all of our most grievous errors.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Yes, because clearly, the United States is a terrible blight on the world, a blight that should be undermined at every opportunity. No government takes espionage lightly. Frankly, a lot of Americans are fed up with their government for various reasons, but it's hard not to get just a little defensive when everyone else in the world is piling on too. Our government is a damn sight better than most any of the alternatives; it takes an extraordinarily perverse view of history to harp endlessly on the USA when the far worse flaws of her enemies are staring everyone in the face. Or, perhaps it's just cowardice: after all, the USA never threatened to decapitate a cartoon artist over a caricature.
FWIW, my problem with Wikileaks is that it's so obviously fishing for embarrassing details to release. If there are real abuses to reveal, then fine, cloak yourself in that peculiarly European self-righteousness that comes after 70 years of relying on the United States to provide free defense. Go to town. But releasing private diplomatic dispatches? What higher purpose could it possibly serve to let the wider world know that a US Ambassador thinks another country's king is a dweeb? Those kinds of details are gratuitous, purely intended to undermine what could be important relationships. This is typical balance of power stuff here; the United States is seen as worse than it is -- viewed with jealousy and/or fear -- simply because it is the most powerful. It's hard to do, but I'd urge you to sit down and think -- really think -- about what every other powerful nation in history has done by contrast. Or, if you prefer, just wait awhile. We may very well see what happens when the United States loses its place in the world sooner rather than later. That won't be a happy day, not even for the most wild-eyed UCLA poli-sci professor. In the meanwhile, I'd like to give a hearty shout out to our forum-moderator overlords. |
The history of Europe is a litany of horrific crimes against our selves and others, just getting our leaders to stop randomly massacring "troublesome" groups and kicking the church out of affairs of state took us a thousand years.
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Kinda sorry I started it myself. |
Originally Posted by Daemodand
WTB: A moderator to close this stupid thread.
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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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How can you say that? The Commander in Chief already said he's guilty. They'll get around to the formality of having a trial soon enough.|
Originally Posted by JKCarrier
What Manning allegedly did. He hasn't been tried yet. And the UCMJ also has a few things to say about how prisoners are to be treated.
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And, sure, he may have been treated in a very unpleasant fashion for the last several months, but does a guilty man deserve less?
Next you'll be claiming that imprisoning and torturing foreigners for years based on nothing more than the accusations of their neighbors makes them a risk for attacking the US if released. They're evil or they'd know that the US' superior moral position in the world makes anything we do justified and accept what happened to them as being necessary.
Like, Obitus said, the crimes do get uncovered, and those who committed them punished. (Well, with a number of exceptions, like ordering torture or following those orders.) Sometimes the crimes are uncovered many decades after all the principles involved are dead, but gosh we can still give their tombstones a stern talking to.
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Thank you for elaborating on the wider context I referenced. You do yourself a disservice, however, by arguing that the USA is intent on repeating "all of [Europe's] most grievous errors." Just read your second paragraph. Read it again.|
Originally Posted by Cass_
Or viewed as a younger sibling, who is free of our baggage yet seems set on repeating all of our most grievous errors.
The history of Europe is a litany of horrific crimes against our selves and others, just getting our leaders to stop randomly massacring "troublesome" groups and kicking the church out of affairs of state took us a thousand years. |
We are not free of your baggage, btw. The Middle East remains to this day marked by European meddling. For instance, whose bright idea was it to put the Kurds inside Iraq's at-the-time arbitrary border? Hell, extremists over there are still angry about the frelling Crusades. Which isn't Europe's fault, but it is worth mentioning.
Also, and this may sound like a nitpick, but it addresses a bit of a peeve: America as a cultural entity is much much younger than its cousins in Europe. The United States as a continuously running government is no younger than most of the current systems in place in Europe, and significantly older than a lot of them.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
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No, I think the question is not whether Wikileaks (or any newspaper) has the right to publish the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may sound. They are, and any attempts at censorship should be severely punished by the courts. I also think that the attorney general should seriously look at some of those dirty little secrets and determine whether any crimes against the US constitution or the Bill of Rights were perpectuated by the authorities, but it won't happen.|
Originally Posted by Zikar
So basically, "We can do what we like, because we're the righteous good guys and if anyone has proof that we're not, they're as evil as the eeevil badmen we're trying to stop."
Also, I highly doubt anyone was killed because of these, all identifying information was removed. I think the newspaper's probably wouldn't have published them themselves otherwise. Yeah, that's right, the newspapers published these things as well, or do you support censoring the press too "for the greater good"? You should be angry at your own government for doing these things, not wikileaks for uncovering them. Then again, I suppose ignorance is bliss. |
The real question is whether you can allow an inside man who willingly took an oath to serve the US Army to just sell confidential and possibly life-threatening information. For profit. Slimeball. I'd defend Assange with my life. Manning? If guilty, let him rot.
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http://kotaku.com/#!5797236/captain-...n-on-wikileaks
Im with Cap on this, but many are not.
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