It shouldn't be balanced around Incarnates or Inventions, but they should be taken into account. A 65 percent global recharge reduction is plenty of a penalty for going Granite, I should think. Not to mention the vast speed debuff and the 30% damage reduction, which by the way makes a lot of sense as it's well known that coating your fists in soft, pillowy granite greatly lessens force of impact. Still, it would be nice to be able to go up a 3 foot tall ledge without having to detoggle my armor...
Either that or change the power completely to augment the rest of the set rather than replace it so that, as a whole, it becomes versatile and fun to play while leveling up and not just "that set that really sucks until you get to level 32 and respec out of all of the other armor powers that you no longer need and won't be using since they can't be active at the same time as the only power that matters, and even then it's really kind of hard to tolerate unless you have a kin with you all the time." Either option would work for me.
I'd be completely fine if they reworked Granite Armor to be significantly less powerful (though still good, say maybe 20-30% resistance and 7.5-10% defense added) and able to be active with the other armors (overriding their graphical effects) so long as the penalties for using it were severely diminished.
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And there lies the main reason I deleted my SA/SM Tanker. |
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
It shouldn't be balanced around Incarnates or Inventions, but they should be taken into account. A 65 percent global recharge reduction is plenty of a penalty for going Granite, I should think. Not to mention the vast speed debuff and the 30% damage reduction, which by the way makes a lot of sense as it's well known that coating your fists in soft, pillowy granite greatly lessens force of impact.
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I can understand the debuff to accuracy, I mean encasing yourself in rock might well cause a bit of a visibility reduction, ergo might miss, even recharge times increasing. But damage decreasing? Whut!?
Why would a stone covered, superhumanly strong body hit less hard? It makes no sense.
Rooted, I get, no problem there, but well, just seems accross the board, you got too many penalties with Stone Armour.
I fear it is just a case of flavor trumping good mechanics.
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iirc, it used to be a -acc, but this caused problems with gauntlet and agro holding. -dmg was the next bext compromise.
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Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
I can understand the debuff to accuracy, I mean encasing yourself in rock might well cause a bit of a visibility reduction, ergo might miss, even recharge times increasing. But damage decreasing? Whut!?
Why would a stone covered, superhumanly strong body hit less hard? It makes no sense. |
From what I've seen Granite is either the 'Oh Snap My Butt is Getting Whooped' power if your getting beaten OR the 'I'm Facing Tower Buffed Recluse/Nictus Rommy/4 Archvillians/Big Bad Mean Thing And I Need to Survive So I Can Hold Aggro' power. It's used when it needed, but if it's not you just leave it off.
I have to agree with the general sentiment of this thread, Stone should have more of its strength spread throughout the rest of the set. Though I probably wouldn't "nerf" Granite so much as, buff its debuffs. Something like, leave its defense values as-is and increase the recharge and damage debuffs to 100% and 75% respectively, but give a power boost to taunt effects so tanking isn't inhibited.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Unless you're IO'd to the gills, it's needed pretty often in regular gameplay unless you aren't going to be the main tank or you have people buffing you. Without using Granite, it's probably the least survivable Tanker set (or close to it) without offering anything in return (such as Shield/Fire giving extra damage). If you're going to take the alpha of an 8-person team you're going to want Granite armor on.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
From what I've seen Granite is either the 'Oh Snap My Butt is Getting Whooped' power if your getting beaten OR the 'I'm Facing Tower Buffed Recluse/Nictus Rommy/4 Archvillians/Big Bad Mean Thing And I Need to Survive So I Can Hold Aggro' power. It's used when it needed, but if it's not you just leave it off.
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I flat out dropped the other armors completely, save Minerals (for Psychic Clockwork and other things like that). I was Energy Melee anyways so the damage debuff wasn't really a big deal to me since my damage was already pretty bad...
Suppose I could take them now that I have 3 extra powers due to Inherent Fitness but... don't see much of a point.
I have bruted a lot, I have tanked some. I have always looked down on Stone armors. The 1st reason for this is simple. I really really (no, really) enjoy the character design screens. To design a great stone themed character and have that disappear everytime I hit granite toggle. Wow. It was that bad for me.
But, that did not completely stop me, I do love character design, brutes and tanks. I have run a number of lowbie Stoners. They look way cool. Love the lava armor, the crystals, etc. I even love rooted. Although toggling mez prot on/off is kinda F-ed up. Some of my stoner brute designs are way cool (I think) if maybe a little derivative.
Anyways, for me, the penalties just have always outweighed the benefits of Stone. If they had a non-graphic tier 9, i might be a little more down with it, even though the first time I hit that bad boy and watched my recharge drop down to the ground I was "What the f....?"
They could do ojne quick solve, that would make all that game balanced (to me.0 I still would not run it until they fixed the tier 9 costume eater, but in my opinion would balance it all back out. Plug the Psi hole.
That's right. Stone armor should have a good amount of Psi Res and Def thrown onto it. Just bury bits in each power. With crystals getting a big boost.
2 reasons. 1) Stone armor is just hating life in i20 compared to the great armor sets out there and how they work in the game. 2) How exactly does it make sense that Psi powers work against rock? Justify that to me. I would love to see comic where some Psi blaster came up to a rock golem and is like "I control your mind...." Cause the next scene is a rock golem walking away from an unidentifiable smear on the ground. that stuff never gets old. again 2) IMO Rock is not really that vulnerable to Psionics. Give the big guys a break and let them be the big guy on campus for a issue or two again. Seriously, most people still wont run them for various reasons, and those that are willing to deal with all the stone armor lifestyle stuff deserve something.
-to those that make the argument "they already are the most survivable in granite so it would not be fair" You answer the point. They are the most survivable. Period. This is not gonna put it over the top, it just means we will see a few more of them in the RWZ. And that could even work in that movie I heard a rumor about. If you got a powerset this archetypal, why not pimp that thang and put it onscreen?
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Wait a second...|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Plug the Psi hole.
That's right. Stone armor should have a good amount of Psi Res and Def thrown onto it. Just bury bits in each power. With crystals getting a big boost. |
WHAT psi hole?
Using only SO's and a Steadfast res/def IO I got my Stone/fire scranker to about 44% Psi def.
Since I actually got round to putting a full build together for him, I've got 50% psi def.
That's more Psi mitigation than exists in ANY other tanker primary.
Drop into Granite and psi becomes a headache (pun not intentional), but that's just a tactical consideration of using Granite.
Minerals is pretty damn useful in and of itself in i20 anyway, since it includes Confuse protection, and having confuse protection in the prisoner escape section of the BAF is a Good Thing (tm).
If however, you want Psi protection adding to Granite, there's not a snowballs chance in hells boiler room of it happening. You want one power in the entire set to provide effective immunity to all damage types AND full mez protection?!?
Stone Armour != Granite Armour.
Oh, and as a side note, Granite is not necessarily you turning into a lump of stone, it's Granite Armour, and that name quite easily implies to me that somewhere inside all that Granite is a nice squishy human(oid/ish) brain for psi powers to grab hold of and twist...
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
Like I said, I am not good on Stone Armor. But I think it should get a Psi def/resist boost. Yep, I do. You make good sense. And, I still think it should get a boost.
To be clear, I think the penalties on the set are so huge, it should be relatively reasonable to be able to get the build to near indestructible vs. everything on an expensive build for it. I mean, lotsa DEF, and lotsa resist.
That is how bad I think stone armor is.
My biggest problem with Granite (and SA in general) is how exclusive it is. None of the other sets I've seen have a power where 'OMG I've hit 32 now I can respec out of every other power in the set!'
None of the other Tank sets has a T9 toggle.
None of the other sets has a power (two actually counting Rooted) that requires you to take Teleport to be able to step over a crumb on the floor. This game is all about choices but Granite and Rooted take choices away.
None of the other sets dictates how you'll look when a power is activated. No color choices, no costume options. A 3-foot tall fairy with dainty wings turns into the same hulking pile of stone as everyone else. Sad.
SA is not terribly broken but it's in need of an overhaul IMHO.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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Sounds like a good and unbalanced approach to me. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Like I said, I am not good on Stone Armor. But I think it should get a Psi def/resist boost. Yep, I do. You make good sense. And, I still think it should get a boost.
To be clear, I think the penalties on the set are so huge, it should be relatively reasonable to be able to get the build to near indestructible vs. everything on an expensive build for it. I mean, lotsa DEF, and lotsa resist. That is how bad I think stone armor is. |
Considering Granite is nigh indestructible as it is, I see no problems with the penalties it has. Rooted on the other hand, really is a bit excessive on it's -run. Could the set use some rebalancing? Yeah, I think it could. But complaining about penalties on a power that makes you incredibly hard to kill is pointless.
Every set has it's hole. The fact that Psi in Granite is Stone's ONE AND ONLY gap I'd say the penalties are more than reasonable when running the armor.
Asking for more Psi protection on the only set in game that can soft-cap it with SOs, Weave and a Steadfast, just makes you look moronic. At this point, you're just whining for an "I WIN" button. If you need one, just build your Stone tank to soft-cap S/L/E/N/Psi, and you'll be doing just fine.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
I know quite a bit about Stone Tanks and to be honest I have yet to find a tank that can survive what I can be put through.
You can max def and res with the Alpha Power now. You can also get your run speed to around 30mph in Granite which is fast, believe me.
You have to have the psi hole as it would not be a challenge anymore. Plus I also managed to get my tank to 21 psi def which is not that bad in granite and I use elusive mind or 2 purples and I am good.
Although if I am running carnie missions I change into my other def powers. With my build I actually use them to carry my lotg recharge and runspeeds, but I am well over cap on psi and capped on smashing lethal fire and cold.
I just have to build it "right", and I say right as I like speed in my build, while others would be more than happy to key bind the teleport with CTRL and click.
Just depends on what you like.
I do agree on the look. I hate looking like all the other granites and wish you could change the texture to some degree and at least the color!!!
Rooted's penalties are very harsh to be honest.....but you can get over them.
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Except you can't actually reach the same levels of survivability.|
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
you can basically reach the same levels of survivability with none of the drawbacks.
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Rooted, aside from being the most complete status protection toggle in the game, also happens to add more regeneration than fast healing.
This is in the same set that also has as self heal that is as strong as Dull Pain and adds just as many HP (EDIT: Removed) as well as Granite which can be near 80% resistance to all except Psi in addition to 31% def to all types except Psi - all on basic IOs.
You can argue whether any of this makes sense, or if the set is so antiquated as to no longer be relevant for most of the game, or that the penalties are extremely harsh.
But you really can't say that these penalties are there for flavor.
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Originally Posted by Silas
I bash it all the time because its a terribly designed set which I'd otherwise like to like. Granite/Rooted is also the epitome of everything wrong with Tankers, IMO.
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Earth's Embrace is on the same recharge as Dull Pain. Obviously, if you use Granite, this may affect the situation, but out of the box, the power's recharges are identical. Also, EE grants 20% enhanceable Toxic resistance, which DP does not do.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
This is in the same set that also has as self heal that is as strong as Dull Pain and adds just as many HP (yes, it is on a much longer timer)
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I have no problem with stone set's design. Changing it after so many years would be minor joy for people who might want to try the changes and massive pain for people who actually play it all the time right now.
Put some regen debuff resist in rooted and it would all be good.
And yes, stone has a psi hole except to almost pure psi damage. You can't use minerals in granite, and you aren't as tough as other tank sets that can actually move unless you're in granite.
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I need to check my mids when I get home, I'm not sure why I thought EE's recharge was longer.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Earth's Embrace is on the same recharge as Dull Pain. Obviously, if you use Granite, this may affect the situation, but out of the box, the power's recharges are identical. Also, EE grants 20% enhanceable Toxic resistance, which DP does not do.
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Good catch.
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Dull Pain is faster activating than Earth's Embrace, but the recharges are identical, according to tomax.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I need to check my mids when I get home, I'm not sure why I thought EE's recharge was longer.
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The longer activation time can, and has several times for me, ended up with a faceplant as enough damage arrives in those two seconds to flatten you.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
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This happens to me on my Controller with EE often. I can't recall having it happen on my tanker yet, but it probably has, just not as often thanks to the extra HPs and other mitigation.
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Originally Posted by Canine
The longer activation time can, and has several times for me, ended up with a faceplant as enough damage arrives in those two seconds to flatten you.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
My first and so far only tank is a Stone. I have 3,000+ hours on him.
As far as the movement penalty goes, if you build some speed boosts in, you are only really crippled in linear situations when you stack Rooted and Granite.
But stepping over low obstacles is just silly restrictive. Particularly in Granite, where you are always about 8 feet tall. Stand on 1 foot, lift your leg so you thigh bone is parallel to the ground, that is a minimum step you should be able to handle. I am 6' 1" and I get about an 18" clearance. That would be about 24" for an 8' tall thing. So any in game barrier 2' or less a Stone Tank in Granite should just step up / over . A Stony not in Granite but rooted should be able to bend a leg higher than parallel, so 2' works there too. I know this is a game and not a simulation. That's my opinion anyway.
Futher, a Granite tank can be knocked down and stand up, even when rooted. I have been there and done it. So you should be able to hit a barrier 4' tall and FALL DOWN to Cross it / Mount it - then stand up. Mobility enhanced but Concept / Penalty preserved.
Finally, there should simply be Two Versions of Tier 9 - Granite Armor.
1) Granite Armor Classic - what we have now.
2) Granite Armor Custom - something that lets us have at least some access to the costume designer and individuality.
You pick one and only one at Tier 9. All Stone Armor users get a freespec on implementation.
Problem solved! Devs praised! Tens of Thousands of Stone Armor alts dusted off and played! Everybody wins and City of Heroes scores another industry leading coup! Great Press!! More Subscribers for the Game That Listens - The Game that CARES!!! All the other ATs benefit, too, as higher revenues lead to even more free content!!!!
That's the way I see it in my vision of Tanker Heaven. Drink the Nectar of the Stone Gods and join me.
Jak
PS - Re: Psi hole. With Weave, Manuevers, and set bonuses, I have 'some' defense vs Psi and to all positions also. When I wear my Nerve Alpha instead on a Musculature or Spiritual, Melee goes to 16.46% with AoE and Ranged over 17%. A small purple pretty much pulls the teeth of most Psi attacks that don't have a 2nd typed component. With 50-70 HP/sec regen I have very seldom been bothered by Psi.
I hope they expand the power customisation tables for granite and other things.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.