While I feel there might be some overhyping in this OP, in general I have to agree. I have a fair number of MMs, and it feels like with every new issue, their problems are just adding up. While fixing the ranged AI wouldn't help Ninjas, unfortunately, I'd love to see my mercs and bots stop running into melee and getting splatted into their component parts.
Then there's the aforementioned level difference in incarnate stuff. While I understand it's necessary, it does put a pretty hefty penalty on MMs. The basic minions are summoned at -2. I don't know if the "purple patch" numbers apply to pets, but I assume they do. So if the Mastermind has one level shift, the 3 pets are hitting for a whopping 30% of their damage. If the MM hasn't gotten a shift yet, it's 15%. Sure, the level difference affects everyone. Can't deny that. But it hits 5/6 of an MM's pets even harder than everyone else, even before one considers how squishy they are.
Next of course there's the loot issues, but I take their word that the system is being lookg at. So I won't go into that again.
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I disagree. The only place where I find it hard to keep pets alive is the weapon phase of Lambda. The rest of the time I am not losing pets fast enough for it to be a major concern.|
Originally Posted by Yorukira
MM are by far under-performing in the new contend.I have a lv 51 Ninja/Dark/Soul and I'm running 80% of the time petsless in this Trial. Pet aren't even worth Upgrading anymore, they get one shot in every mob like a balloons in the grass.
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| They should buff MM by eliminating the lv difference of pets and make all the same lv of the MM. Also, they should add a oneshot kill on pets, Make it so that pets always keep 1 HP if they have full hp and get hit by the lv+5 target. |
The solution I like is to make all of the pets the same level as the MM but reduce the damage scalars and apply a debuff that roughly corresponds to the effect of the pets fighting an enemy that is +0 to the MM. (As a side effect this would actually work as a buff for Poison since Noxious Gas wouldn't scale as much on different pets).
So the change would be as follows, first value is tier 1 pet, second is tier 2:
Reduce damage and debuff scales on powers by 20%/10%
Apply a debuff power with the following:
Resistance Debuff (resistable): -22%/-11%
To Hit Debuff (unresistable): -19%/-10%
Elusivity Debuff (unresistable): -20%/-10%
This means that minions would be the same effectiveness against +0 enemies. Against higher level enemies they would be slightly more effective offensively but a little weaker defensively (enemies would do about 3% more damage at +4).
Importantly for Thermal Radiation the resistance debuff is resistable which should (if I have the mechanics correct) mean that it works out about the same in terms of total damage after applying the shields.
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I'm sure your not a Ninja MM...|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I disagree. The only place where I find it hard to keep pets alive is the weapon phase of Lambda. The rest of the time I am not losing pets fast enough for it to be a major concern.
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Pets in general are weaker, but they get over it by their numbers and tactics, but this new enemies are much stronger!!, they weren't desing for this new massive trail events. They aren't able to hit hard or last enough to be able to make a different.
I'm just saying they need to buff pets to be able to deal with this massive amount of lv 54 TF/trials.
I want /Fire stalker. Because nothing says stealth like dumping a can of gasoline on yourself and lighting a match. -Morac
Eh, once you get your incarnate shifts, you'll be wishing your pets died more often so you can actually USE your powers and get higher then a uncommon component reward table...
Stupid reward tables being balanced around participation (whatever that means..)
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See, that's a different issue. Ninjas probably could use a buff but that is different from buffing all MMs, especially if the buff involves removing the level debuff on the lower tier pets (which would be a HUGE buff to MMs).
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Originally Posted by Yorukira
I'm sure your not a Ninja MM...
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It's that a Bad thing?
I want /Fire stalker. Because nothing says stealth like dumping a can of gasoline on yourself and lighting a match. -Morac
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Yes. While some MM primaries (especially Ninjas and Mercs) do underperform to one degree or another that is not the same as the AT as a whole needing a buff. Bots and Thugs in particular are very strong so anything that buffs them is a bad idea.
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Originally Posted by Yorukira
It's that a Bad thing?
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"Buffing" MM's is sort of an odd topic in itself. They're good at what they do, but you need to stop and really look at the Mastermind to figure out that something may be wrong.
The primary issue is that pets don't scale. Once you hit 32, you've peaked. This is a bit of an issue itself.
The fact that pets don't benefit from IO's is also an issue, granted the game isn't balanced around it, doesn't mean Masterminds should be left out in the cold.
The lack of pets having proper attack chains is also ludicrous, and is the primary reason why a lot of the 'ranged' pets go right into melee. Recharge times need to be reduced, really.
Additionally, animation times have their own share of issues. There are an overwhelming number of huge animation time abilities, and we know why it exists - so cooldowns can be higher. Both need to be reduced.
Why? Because let's face it. When you get down to really gearing it up, there's three more AT's that can do what Masterminds do - Support and Damage. They, however, do it better.
A Mastermind may be better at soloing stupid crap (Sans Illu/Rad Controllers and the like), but people who view "HOW GOOD I SOLO AV IS HOW OP MY AT IS" need a slap to a face.
Masterminds do generally under perform. And with the pets being so, let's face it, not-fun to play with due to their random little issues? We really could use some looking at.
I don't know about the rest of you, but balance =/= play Thugs or Robotics. Because both sets also have their TIMMY! moments.
Masterminds need to be looked at. Stop saying they don't.
I always read someone saying "that MM are OP" and "My MM do fine".I'm sure is true but none ever show of prove of it. Then when I say
Example:" My Bot's don't die alot to be a issue"
Of course Not!! They are away from the AoE ;but are they hitting they target or making 80% of the dmg they do?
Lets forget about surviveable and focus on dmg for a sec.With one lv +1 pets should be 49,50, and 51, vs lv 54 minion,Lieut,boss,ect. The new contend is balance around +20 players teams, incarnation and dare to say IO too.
MM need to be focus on one target to make heavy dmg(At least for ninjas), but with the lv diferents,targets resistan, and the amount of enemies, Pets make a lot less dmg!
Example: Smoke bomb on my lv 51 Oni, He then use Firebreath!! on the Mob that was under my tar patch! That my MM stronger Attack!!! Only Minion get any significan dmg, Lieut and up rank get tick of critical 8 or 10 dmg, boss and EB get 5 or less!!
How I'm suppose to kill a Lv 54 if Smash/Lethal is soo heavy resisted! Tehy only one that is making dmg is the one b/c of his lv and fire attack.
Buff MM!! Remove the lv scale on the incarnation trials! Seriously!!
I want /Fire stalker. Because nothing says stealth like dumping a can of gasoline on yourself and lighting a match. -Morac
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I never said it did. However, a general buff to all MMs needs to take into account the fact that a general MM buff results in Bots and Thugs being even more OP.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
I don't know about the rest of you, but balance =/= play Thugs or Robotics. Because both sets also have their TIMMY! moments.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Yorukira
MM need to be focus on one target to make heavy dmg(At least for ninjas), but with the lv diferents,targets resistan, and the amount of enemies, Pets make a lot less dmg!
Buff MM!! Remove the lv scale on the incarnation trials! Seriously!! |
1. Make all pets the MM's level. The problem with this is that it makes MMs as a whole significantly stronger in non-incarnate content. I think that any buff to MMs in Incarnate content needs to avoid buffing them at +0.
2. Remove the level scale on the incarnate trials. Not going to happen. The devs have decided to use the purple patch to balance the incarnate content. Reducing enemies to level 50 just to help MMs makes balancing the content overall a whole lot harder.
The solution I proposed in my second post is an attempt to fix that. Changing all pets to be the MM's level means that they scale at the same rate as other ATs and applying a debuff to them avoids improving their performance at +0.
While a MM is at a disadvantage in the destroy objects phase of Lambda, they tend to shine in the Escapee phase of BAM. They have specific strengths and weaknesses that you have to work around.
Before you do the iTrials, make sure your Alpha shifted +1. Then go for the Barrier Incarnate power (AoE Def). It helps if you can fit in the four +Res/+Def IOs into your build.
During the destroy objects phase, let your pets die off with each attack. Stealth to next one and resummon. If adopting the tactic of constantly resummoning is abhorrent... then you're being as inflexible as melee toons who couldn't hit and move dealing with Battle Maiden. Adjust tactics.
BTW, the OP's point was the problems of MMs in iTrial content. Anyone who wants to make the point that MMs need a buff in general for all content will get nowhere with that assertion. MMs are one of the fastest leveling ATs in the game.
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PvP and Masterminds. Two things that will never be addressed. I don't mean to cry doom, really, but at this point it seems like the only thing Paragon is going to let the devs do is make new shinies. There's nothing wrong with that. Just sucks for MMs I guess. Maybe I'm just in a bad mood right now...
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I wouldnt say buff MM but buff just the ninja set and maybe zombies. All the other sets are overpowered for teaming. None of them have to deal with pets with paper thin defense that get slammed before they even get to melee to do their damage. All the other sets have more range to some degree that does good damage or they have resistance thats worth a damn.
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Originally Posted by Yorukira
MM are by far under-performing in the new contend.I have a lv 51 Ninja/Dark/Soul and I'm running 80% of the time petsless in this Trial. Pet aren't even worth Upgrading anymore, they get one shot in every mob like a balloons in the grass.
The most obvious problem is that pets are fighting enemies 5lv above then!! Only little lv+1 isn't helping at all. I know they are two new Lv+1 but is a immense pain it because to get it, b/c MM aren't getting the rare reward pool from the trial!! More work for MM. Is already hard to be able to use my powers without running out of end or dying. BG is almost useless now b/c every enemies have AoE. Most of the time my toggles drops while Re-summon pets and upgrading, is becoming a pain. They should buff MM by eliminating the lv difference of pets and make all the same lv of the MM. Also, they should add a oneshot kill on pets, Make it so that pets always keep 1 HP if they have full hp and get hit by the lv+5 target. MM can't play without his pets and this new contend is by far a lot harder that normal PvE. Pets are already weak and the new incarnate doesn't cut it for pets, with +1 or +3 on then they will still get one shot in every mob. For real Buff MM! |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
Yeah lets dont buff masterminds because their pets cant be killed by mobs with no attacks.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
While a MM is at a disadvantage in the destroy objects phase of Lambda, they tend to shine in the Escapee phase of BAM. They have specific strengths and weaknesses that you have to work around.
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Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
I agree with most of this. My only real complaint is that MM's damage is more heavily affected by the purple patch than other ATs.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
While a MM is at a disadvantage in the destroy objects phase of Lambda, they tend to shine in the Escapee phase of BAM. They have specific strengths and weaknesses that you have to work around.
Before you do the iTrials, make sure your Alpha shifted +1. Then go for the Barrier Incarnate power (AoE Def). It helps if you can fit in the four +Res/+Def IOs into your build. |
I don't consider it a deal breaker but it is frustrating that the lower tier pets deal so little damage compared to their normal damage.
At +0 the pets deal 100%/90%/80% of their base damage, this is their "normal" damage. At +3 they deal 65%/48%/30% of their base damage which works out to 65%/53%/38% of their "normal" damage levels. Other ATs will deal 65% of their normal damage consistently so it seems unfair that MMs deal less than that from two of their "attack" powers.
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Except they really don't.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Masterminds need to be looked at. Stop saying they don't.
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Any "looking at" MMs get as a whole would more than likely end up in nerfs.
Yes, my bots/traps can solo GMs. No, that doesn't make him OP. He can also solo +4/x8 missions. That wouldn't make him OP by itself either. The fact that he can do both? Yes, I think it does.
What you people want is for the devs to look at the underperforming MM sets. Specifically ninjas and mercs. Problem is, they're underperforming when compared to things like bots, demons, and thugs. So it's still not going to end with ninjas getting pulled up to the level of bots. It'll end with bots being pulled down.
So, again, no they really don't need "looking at."
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I was referring to their damage output. My uber Defender (at even con) couldn't kill one commando from spawn to exit while my less than uber MM ripped through them.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Yeah lets dont buff masterminds because their pets cant be killed by mobs with no attacks.
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They also excel at AV take downs even though they may have to be resummoned often, since you have a steady stream of pet attacks stacking whatever Incarnate debuff you chose.
I'm doing just fine with Necro on the iTrials. Mostly because I don't regard resummoning as failure.
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i'd have to sat that in general, MMs don't need to be buffed, they're fine as is. however, having said that, there are some places they are at a disadvantage. in normal missions and TFs you can adjust the difficulty so that if your tier 1 pets aren't doing any damage you can fix it, but in the trials, you have no choice but to fight +4s. however, since you can, eventually, get up to +3 with level shifts, giving MMs an overall buff is a bad thing because they will only become overpowered at that lvl shift. i think, if the devs did anything, the only help MMs really need is from AoE attacks while they are still fighting +4s. so, maybe give MM pets a scaling def to AoEs (in trials only) that gets smaller as the MM gains more level shifts. i think that's all they would really need to preform at an equal standing to the other ATs. i really don't think they need any kind of damage boost, because that can be taken care of with proper use of both alpha (+dam) and interface (-dam res) slots.
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Resummoning pets is NOT a failure. The point the OP is making is that pets die so fast you dont even have time to train them after being summoned. Some MM pets are actually just plain worthless in the incarnate trials.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I was referring to their damage output. My uber Defender (at even con) couldn't kill one commando from spawn to exit while my less than uber MM ripped through them.
They also excel at AV take downs even though they may have to be resummoned often, since you have a steady stream of pet attacks stacking whatever Incarnate debuff you chose. I'm doing just fine with Necro on the iTrials. Mostly because I don't regard resummoning as failure. |
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That would be Ninjas (without Force Fields boosting their token Defenses).
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Originally Posted by Starmage21
Some MM pets are actually just plain worthless in the incarnate trials.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I run Ninjas/FF. Even with all 3 level shifts, theyre dead before you can bubble em.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
That would be Ninjas (without Force Fields boosting their token Defenses).
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Seriously though until you run Ninja/Poison to lvl 50, no one can say that masterminds dont need buffing, hell you could run Ninja anything and it would be close to the same results. Ninjas need an overhaul badly. The other pet combinations are in much better shape. Its just that ever since they screwed pets with the recharge nerf they have not been right since on damage. Ninjas got the impact the worst in all of this because the AI is different now. To make matters worse the level scaling means while they are standing their deciding if they are even going to attack they get 1 shotted before then.
My proposed fix for ninjas is this, make the summon and buff power for ninjas cost the least out of all the masterminds and make it recharge like 5 seconds. Then the mastermind could be like how it is in the ninja movies where there is like an endless supply of ninjas that the hero has to take down before getting to the big boss. At that point I wont give a crap about them getting 1 shotted if the powers hardly cost end and have faster recharge.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
Just pointing out the fallacy here: Ninjas may be underperforming, but that doesn't mean Masterminds as a whole need a buff.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Seriously though until you run Ninja/Poison to lvl 50, no one can say that masterminds dont need buffing
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Except they really do.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Except they really don't.
Any "looking at" MMs get as a whole would more than likely end up in nerfs. Yes, my bots/traps can solo GMs. No, that doesn't make him OP. He can also solo +4/x8 missions. That wouldn't make him OP by itself either. The fact that he can do both? Yes, I think it does. What you people want is for the devs to look at the underperforming MM sets. Specifically ninjas and mercs. Problem is, they're underperforming when compared to things like bots, demons, and thugs. So it's still not going to end with ninjas getting pulled up to the level of bots. It'll end with bots being pulled down. So, again, no they really don't need "looking at." |
The fact that Bots/FF is such a great class selection is like saying that a Fire/Fire tank is too good in AE Fire farms.
Selectively, if you look at MM with ONLY THAT CLASS, you could assume that MM might just be a bit OP, sure.
But look at Ninjas, or Mercs, even as you mentioned - you're assuming that the devs are idiots and going to just nerf Bots and Thugs because they arn't underpowered and leave Ninjas and Mercs as they are.
The fact that two whole primaries with MMs are almost entirely useless is extraordinarily derp. My favorite MM, my Mercs/Pain was awesome, and I adored him, until I reached level 41 and everything suddenly was taking chunks less damage from my minions, and my soldiers started dieing fast and hard, to the point I literally could not summon them fast enough. Specops are vastly less useful than almost any secondary pet that the MM's get, and the Commando, bless his heart, while trying his damndest, he still relies almost, almost that is, exclusively on lethal damage, which everything suddenly decided was no longer a threat to them.
Why should I have to go back and reroll a bots/FF just to contend as a MM? Why do I have to suddenly take my lashings and accept that my Mercs/Pain is now less damaging, and less helpful than a Defender in task forces, or anything with more than +0?
MM are by far under-performing in the new contend.I have a lv 51 Ninja/Dark/Soul and I'm running 80% of the time petsless in this Trial. Pet aren't even worth Upgrading anymore, they get one shot in every mob like a balloons in the grass.
The most obvious problem is that pets are fighting enemies 5lv above then!! Only little lv+1 isn't helping at all. I know they are two new Lv+1 but is a immense pain it because to get it, b/c MM aren't getting the rare reward pool from the trial!! More work for MM.
Is already hard to be able to use my powers without running out of end or dying. BG is almost useless now b/c every enemies have AoE. Most of the time my toggles drops while Re-summon pets and upgrading, is becoming a pain.
They should buff MM by eliminating the lv difference of pets and make all the same lv of the MM. Also, they should add a oneshot kill on pets, Make it so that pets always keep 1 HP if they have full hp and get hit by the lv+5 target.
MM can't play without his pets and this new contend is by far a lot harder that normal PvE. Pets are already weak and the new incarnate doesn't cut it for pets, with +1 or +3 on then they will still get one shot in every mob.
For real Buff MM!
I want /Fire stalker. Because nothing says stealth like dumping a can of gasoline on yourself and lighting a match. -Morac