I think I know what bothers me about Tip writing


Arilou

 

Posted

It really doesn't bother me. If it was changed it would undoubtedly conflict with my character in another way and be the exact same issue, dressed up differently. I know they can't accomodate everyone so don't get irritated about it.


 

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
Sam, second-person narrative is a staple of RPGs. I don't know how they do it in whatever language you speak, but in English, it's done this way. It always has been and always will.

For example, if I am DMing a session of D&D and you're one of the players, and I'm describing a scene to you I don't say to you: "As I enter the tomb, I feel the temperature drop precipitously around me."

No, I say to you instead: "As you enter the tomb, you feel the temperature drop precipitously around you."

The first implies I'm talking about myself. The second implies I'm talking about you.

There is nothing wrong with the pronoun use in the tip missions. If it was done your way in the first person, I'd be wondering who the mysterious "I" was and why I was doing his stuff.
Actually, Sam being a non-native English speaker might be exactly why he's seeing the narrative the way he is.

Back when I was in High School, I took a single year of German and the German language teacher, Frau Ley, mentioned that non-native Germans speak more 'proper' German once they learn enough, even if they live in Germany. The reason? They go home and speak English to their family while the German kids speak the more slang and stylized German.

One of my friends is Afrikaans and speaks a very proper English to me when we're chatting online or yelling bloodthirsty obscenities during Team Fortress 2 (and if he didn't have such a small monthly bandwidth limit, I'd have him on CoH by now). That's because he learned the exact way English works and not how we chat/talk to others in shorthand, local dialects and such.

Heck, talking to people once I moved to Georgia was a learning experience.

"Hey"
Yeah?
"Yahaight?"
Hungry but yeah. Djeet yet?
"Nah, joo?"
Yumpto?
"Ahhight."


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It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

 

Posted

It would be pretty weird havng the little info windows as you enter a mission use the word "I" instead of "you" - it's just meant to set the scene, not be an actual conversation, like when we talk to NPCs


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Uh, Sam, first person narrative really can't be used since the point of view of this mode can and does change, i.e. the one narrating can switch from the character (in the example, your character looking into Feymouth's case) or the example (in the example, maybe Feymouth making a statement on the news). When first person is used, the text is usually colored differently (indicating its a letter or what is being heard over a news report) but should not be relied upon simply because it'd be confusing.

Second person narrative is more concise in that, it will always refer to 'whomever it concerns'. There's a reason this mode is used for things like role-playing, self-help and how-tos.


 

Posted

The issue is not (as I see it) the difference between using the first or second person narrative.

Whichever is used, the cardinal sin here is...

Instructing the player what to think and feel.

Those are two incredibly personal things. The narrative should present the player with all the cues and information necessary to think and feel for themselves. It doesn't need to go over the line to be a good story.

I don't like the Tip missions writing because it tells me what to think about what I'm doing. I ignore it. I make the choices and do so for my -own- reasons.

If I want to trash Frostfire's trophies it's because he looked at me funny the first time we met, or it's because I think he'd find me spray painting smilie faces on them funny (I'm warped), or it's because I want to take a couple and trashing the lot is a good cover, or whatever. The emotional response to the Tip Mission's is the player's own, or the character's own.

It is not for the game to decide for them.

In tabletop terms, I guess it's the difference between saying...

"This could be one of the scariest things you've faced yet. Even the walls are bleeding!"

As opposed to...

"You're more scared than you've ever been before. The bleeding walls are terrifying you!"


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
For example, if I am DMing a session of D&D and you're one of the players, and I'm describing a scene to you I don't say to you: "As I enter the tomb, I feel the temperature drop precipitously around me."
If you inferred that that's what I was suggesting, then you missed the point. I'm not suggesting that the omniscient narrator speak in first person. I'm suggesting that the omniscient narrator NOT SPEAK. At all. When I refer to first person, I refer to letting my character speak for himself. If the game is going to tell me how my character feels, it may as well do so in his words out of his mouth.

If pen and paper RPGs have always been done in second-person narrative, then that's just one more reason to not bother with them, given my general distaste for real-time roleplay. I don't enjoy letting other people write for my characters, and this is precisely what this second-person narrative does. And it isn't necessary, because the choices don't need to be explained to me. The choices can be given to me as-is. When a situation fails to give me an explanation of the morality of a choice, it forces me to come up with my own morality, which in turn forces me to explore my characters deeper and make them more compelling.

In simple terms, being told that "You chose to save these people because they're innocent and they don't deserve to die and you've sworn to protect the innocent!" just causes me to go "Oh, OK. I'll go with that." By giving me an option to save these people but not explaining why I took it, the game forces me to ask the obvious question: "So why DID I choose to have my character save these people? Would he choose to save them, really? Does it fit his personality? How can I explain this?"

Writing thoughts into player characters' heads is bad storytelling, because it corrupts one of the driving forces behind the game's fiction - creating our own characters from our own ideas. The more the game encourages people to think for themselves, the better it is overall.

---

And, really - when when the game does not give us any way to make our characters speak in such a way that the game accepts it, I see no problem with putting in a little first-person dialogue. If the game needs to tell me how my character feels, then let him say so on his own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Tip mission briefings appear to have been written in the first person, and then personal pronouns swapped from I/my/mine to you/your/yours. I'm serious. Look at a tip mission some time and try reading it as though it's written in the first person. In fact, let me give you an example.

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Senior Agent Freymuth has a long and decorated history with Longbow. You're sad to see he's been blinded by his anger at the system to resort to acting as judge, jury, and executioner.
This is a direct copy/paste of a 40-50 Tip mission, as told by a disembodied narrator about the player (you) as narrative. Now re-read that as a statement coming from the character, and written as though in a journal. I'll swap just a single word (well, two words, technically) to do this.

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Senior Agent Freymuth has a long and decorated history with Longbow. I'm sad to see he's been blinded by his anger at the system to resort to acting as judge, jury, and executioner.
See what I mean? Not only does the language come off significantly less clunky, it actually also carries quite a bit more weight as a basic statement, not to mention how much more personal it sounds.
Can't you just solve the problem by leaving out the personal pronoun altogether so it would read thusly?:

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Quote:
Senior Agent Freymuth has a long and decorated history with Longbow. Sadly, he's been blinded by his anger at the system to resort to acting as judge, jury, and executioner.
This seems like better writing to me and leaves it up to the readers to decide if they feel sad or if that is just a judgment by a third party narrator with whom they don't agree. Frankly, the whole last sentence seems awkward in the way it uses the verb "blinded" to do a lot of heavy lifting all by its lonesome. I'd put it more like this:

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Sadly, he has been so blinded by his anger at the system that he's resorted to acting as judge, jury, and executioner.


 

Posted

Oh, I agree. That's the kind of writing I'd like to see, but that would also prevent the writers from putting thoughts in our heads. It's the "second way" to do things that I talked about.

In general, I feel that this is how a disembodied narrator should be telling stories about indeterminate characters. It avoids writing for them while still allowing the narrative to pass judgement on events and present its own spin. What makes this better is that this is a spin on the world in which the character exists, which still allows said character to interpret it and react to it as is appropriate for his or her concept.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
I ran a Call of Cthulhu campaign, along with any number of horror (sometimes Lovecraftian) themed scenarios in my ten year or so superhero campaign (run across three different rulesets) without doing this. It really is not that hard.
Without ever making a sanity check?

Because that's describing how your character feels. (in a fairly extreme way)

It gets even more interesting when you start to get into the stuff that's somehwere in-between ("You open the door to a stinking pit of voles." In D&D I'd roll a fortitude check to see if you puked, but in other systems that might be trickier


"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."

 

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Without ever making a sanity check?

Because that's describing how your character feels. (in a fairly extreme way)
Sanity checks were the result of unusual influences on the character. (I only required them for actual supernatural critters and such, not for "mundane" shocks like finding a dead body.) Likewise for things like charm spells or mind control or such.


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"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
It gets even more interesting when you start to get into the stuff that's somehwere in-between ("You open the door to a stinking pit of voles." In D&D I'd roll a fortitude check to see if you puked, but in other systems that might be trickier
See, that's not a problem, because it's a physical reaction to a physical stimulus. Now what would be a problem is, after having the player make the fortitude roll, telling the player, "You're extremely happy about throwing up all over your boots."


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
If you inferred that that's what I was suggesting, then you missed the point. I'm not suggesting that the omniscient narrator speak in first person. I'm suggesting that the omniscient narrator NOT SPEAK. At all. When I refer to first person, I refer to letting my character speak for himself. If the game is going to tell me how my character feels, it may as well do so in his words out of his mouth.
Unfortunately first-person narrative in such a way would be confusing and jarring for most native English speakers. Like I said, I'd be wondering who this "I" person was that was seemingly talking to me.

Clearly there is more about English you need to learn such as context.

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If pen and paper RPGs have always been done in second-person narrative, then that's just one more reason to not bother with them, given my general distaste for real-time roleplay. I don't enjoy letting other people write for my characters, and this is precisely what this second-person narrative does. And it isn't necessary, because the choices don't need to be explained to me. The choices can be given to me as-is. When a situation fails to give me an explanation of the morality of a choice, it forces me to come up with my own morality, which in turn forces me to explore my characters deeper and make them more compelling.
Oh, so your real issue is the fact that the text narrates your feelings to you. Regardless, it's still a fair use of second-person narrative as we native English speakers are familiar with.

I have some good news for you; generally in pen and paper role-playing, unless we're dealing with some kind of status effect or character trait you chose during character creation, the DM doesn't dictate your emotions and thoughts to you. Generally. As I listed though, there are a few exceptions.

Physical sensations such as sight, hearing, sound, taste, and smell are another matter completely.

However! ....

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In simple terms, being told that "You chose to save these people because they're innocent and they don't deserve to die and you've sworn to protect the innocent!" just causes me to go "Oh, OK. I'll go with that." By giving me an option to save these people but not explaining why I took it, the game forces me to ask the obvious question: "So why DID I choose to have my character save these people? Would he choose to save them, really? Does it fit his personality? How can I explain this?"

Writing thoughts into player characters' heads is bad storytelling, because it corrupts one of the driving forces behind the game's fiction - creating our own characters from our own ideas. The more the game encourages people to think for themselves, the better it is overall.
Then you are clearly unfamiliar with another medium of second-person narrative: Gamebooks. I was an avid reader of gamebooks in my childhood. My favorite series was Lone Wolf by British writer, Joe Dever. A more popular series in gamebooks that you might recognize; however, is Choose Your Own Adventure. In these gamebooks, the reader is allowed to choose where the character goes in a limited choice of options ("If you choose to go down the twisted, narrow path, turn to page 6. If you choose to climb the staircase into the cave, turn to page 37." And so on). Often in the text, my emotions and thoughts as I discovered the worlds within were described to me as much as the sights and smells.

It was hardly bad writing. Not even close.

Having read those books in my youth, I hardly have a problem with CoH doing the same thing as its mission briefings these days are very similar to what was found in the gamebook genre.

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And, really - when when the game does not give us any way to make our characters speak in such a way that the game accepts it, I see no problem with putting in a little first-person dialogue. If the game needs to tell me how my character feels, then let him say so on his own.
Once again: Confusing. Who is this "I" and why am I setting out on the mission he decided to go out and do for himself? It might work in German, but it doesn't work in English.


 

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Originally Posted by sleestack View Post
See, that's not a problem, because it's a physical reaction to a physical stimulus. Now what would be a problem is, after having the player make the fortitude roll, telling the player, "You're extremely happy about throwing up all over your boots."
But nausea while a physical reaction is also a mental one: It's accompanied by a sense of disgust.


"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by galadiman View Post
I like the second person narrative better. First person is confusing and wierd to me in this context.
This.


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It was hardly bad writing. Not even close.
I used to sell those books when I ran a game store, and you're right, they weren't even close to bad writing. It was TERRIBLE writing.


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"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
I used to sell those books when I ran a game store, and you're right, they weren't even close to bad writing. It was TERRIBLE writing.
Wrong.


 

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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
I used to sell those books when I ran a game store, and you're right, they weren't even close to bad writing. It was TERRIBLE writing.
Lol, in what context?

I used to tutor english comp. when I was in community college. There's a difference between terrible writing and writing you just don't care for.


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Lol, in what context?

I used to tutor english comp. when I was in community college. There's a difference between terrible writing and writing you just don't care for.
Venture doesn't like it. Therefore, it's awful and no one else should. Duh.


 

Posted

Eh, it's Venture. I don't think there's a single thing on the face of this Earth that he likes.


 

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
Eh, it's Venture. I don't think there's a single thing on the face of this Earth that he likes.
You know, just because someone criticizes something you like doesn't mean they don't like anything.

I've seen some of what Venture likes, and some of it is, you know what? Good. Some of it is even--oh the horror--funny!

Me defending Venture. What is the world coming to?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
You know, just because someone criticizes something you like doesn't mean they don't like anything.

I've seen some of what Venture likes, and some of it is, you know what? Good. Some of it is even--oh the horror--funny!
Wait, wait, wait... Evidence... please. In just about every post I see him make, he's saying how "horrible" something is and saying we also shouldn't like it. I have yet to see him speak fondly of anything.


 

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Senior Agent Freymuth has a long and decorated history with Longbow. Sadly, he's been blinded by his anger at the system to resort to acting as judge, jury, and executioner.
"Sadly" to whom? You're not solving the perceived problem just by taking out a pronoun. What you're really shooting for is:

'He's been blinded by his anger at the system.'

No qualifiers, no judgements, just facts. Heck, even the 'he's been blinded' part might be too much:

'He's angry at the system and resorting to acting as judge, jury, and executioner.'

--------


I don't see Tip Mission writing any different than any other writing in this game. You as a player (or your character) needs a reason to be doing the task you've been assigned. The game is supplying you one. You can ignore it, as many do, or you can immerse yourself in it. The only thing different in the Tip writing is an attempt to distinguish between the two paths you can choose. Heroes act different than Vigilantes, and Villains act differently than Rogues. Sometimes they have a different point of view on the same situation, and that's what the writing is trying to convey.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
Wait, wait, wait... Evidence... please. In just about every post I see him make, he's saying how "horrible" something is and saying we also shouldn't like it. I have yet to see him speak fondly of anything.
Venture used to do AE reviews, in which he 4- and 5- starred a significant number of arcs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash View Post
I don't see Tip Mission writing any different than any other writing in this game. You as a player (or your character) needs a reason to be doing the task you've been assigned. The game is supplying you one. You can ignore it, as many do, or you can immerse yourself in it. The only thing different in the Tip writing is an attempt to distinguish between the two paths you can choose. Heroes act different than Vigilantes, and Villains act differently than Rogues. Sometimes they have a different point of view on the same situation, and that's what the writing is trying to convey.
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It turns out Senior Agent Freymuth is no longer an official member of Longbow. He was identified by a captured informant as the individual responsible for the recent deaths of several notorious villains.

Longbow officials are already en route to take Freymuth into custody, though they expect significant resistance.
Taken straight from the tip mission briefing. He killed some villains, Longbow kicked him out, and now they're going to take him in. Want more incentive?

For heroes:
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Putting a stop to this yourself before things escalate will prevent those loyal to him from having to choose between him and the Corps, and will allow some small measure of healing to begin.
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Senior Agent Freymuth took justice into his own hands. It's time he answers for that. You might also be able to discover clues as to what Freymuth has been up to.
For vigilantes:
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Those he stands accused of dealing with were all killers themselves, the lowest of the low..... If Freymuth can elude this dragnet, he'll have an opportunity to clear his name and make his detractors see that he's only doing what's best for the city.
Those aren't good enough reasons for your character to do what they're going to do?


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Venture used to do AE reviews, in which he 4- and 5- starred a significant number of arcs.
Is that 'Four minus' and 'Five minus'?


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Those aren't good enough reasons for your character to do what they're going to do?
Well sure, but then you start running into the problem of 'dry writing'. If we were reporting this as an unbiased source of information like a news publication or for simply referential purposes, stating just the facts and nothing more, is perfectly good.

But this is creative writing. You're telling more than events, you're captivating the reader. Not saying the in-game stuff all does this or that you need to dictate what the reader is feeling all the time to ever emote, but something needs to be said to make one care about what you're reading.


 

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But this is creative writing.
That's debatable....

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You're telling more than events, you're captivating the reader. Not saying the in-game stuff all does this or that you need to dictate what the reader is feeling all the time to ever emote, but something needs to be said to make one care about what you're reading.
And the point is that you can do that without stepping on the players' toes. Many, many people have done it in AE.


Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"