Share Incarnate XP and drops across the League.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-11 19:06 in Suggestions and Ideas
Well, last night I was on a raid that tried to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory. 
We were going for the "Keep Em Separated" badge. It was only because we managed to get everyone to the "safe" spot near the ambushes that we managed to recover. It wouldn't have been needed if people could have stayed in set groups (1 on Siege, 1 on Night Star, and 1 on Ambushes). If some of team siege is on Night Star, and the rest are defeated, the AV continues to hold aggro on the team and moves.
Besides, everyone is working towards a common goal and should be treated equally. It is just the decent thing to do.
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Every time I'm on a BAF and the league leader tries to specify that an entire team is to work on the ambushes, I always suggest that he have 2 people from each team on ambushes while everyone else works on the AVs. Most BAFs I've been on already run this way, but there's the occassional PUG with an inexperienced (or jackass iXP hoarding) leader.
For one, 8 people are not needed to handle the adds, especially once they've got some of the new Incarnate abilities slotted. Six attackers are more than sufficient, and it's entirely feasible with 4 (if you wanted to split the league into 4 teams of 6, which we do sometimes during the final phase).
Secondly, and more obviously, this means that everybody on every team will get some of the iXP for the ambushes.
EDIT: Not that I'm arguing the point of the suggestion. I vote "hell yes!" even though that'll make it easier for people to sponge.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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I take exception to those labels. I am neither inexperienced or a hoarding leader (I don't assign myself to the ambushes). It is the simplest way to keep the trials from failing because it is (a) clear, (b) quick to get across, and (c) easily followed.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Every time I'm on a BAF and the league leader tries to specify that an entire team is to work on the ambushes, I always suggest that he have 2 people from each team on ambushes while everyone else works on the AVs. Most BAFs I've been on already run this way, but there's the occassional PUG with an inexperienced (or jackass iXP hoarding) leader.
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There is also the issue that if the group is trying to keep the AVs separated, then if the group on the AV dies or mass disconnects (and it happened to a trial I was on last night), the AV keeps aggro and moves across to where the teammates with the principal aggro is on (even if they are not in the same area).
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
For one, 8 people are not needed to handle the adds, especially once they've got some of the new Incarnate abilities slotted. Six attackers are more than sufficient, and it's entirely feasible with 4 (if you wanted to split the league into 4 teams of 6, which we do sometimes during the final phase).
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Secondly, and more obviously, this means that everybody on every team will get some of the iXP for the ambushes.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
EDIT: Not that I'm arguing the point of the suggestion. I vote "hell yes!" even though that'll make it easier for people to sponge.
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My only concern is that the reward system should, like it does everywhere else, make some effort to reward merit. Suppose two teams split on a Lambda and one team is far better than the other, not just getting all their assign weapons but also clearing more critters in the process, and *then* having lots of spare time left over to go help the other team. The current system would, I would imagine, reward that team with somewhat more iXP. Shouldn't it? |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Besides, everyone is working towards a common goal and should be treated equally. It is just the decent thing to do.
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The problem is really that while that situation presents roughly the same situation to both teams and then gives them both equal opportunity to excel over the other (and its rare one team really does excel so far over the other that it impacts iXP too badly), the adds in BAF create an opportunity for huge asymmetry if the leader allows it. But while I think something needs to be done, I'm just a little uncomfortable saying that since everyone on the team is working to a common goal all rewards should be split perfectly evenly among all participants because that's only fair option. If there was a better way, I would suggest it. I don't have a better way in mind at the moment, though.
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Arcana, the exact same thing happens to a smaller extent now with a regular team of 8 players. Even in your example, one team could be all melee and plow through the area while the other group stealths and is selective about their targets.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My only concern is that the reward system should, like it does everywhere else, make some effort to reward merit. Suppose two teams split on a Lambda and one team is far better than the other, not just getting all their assign weapons but also clearing more critters in the process, and *then* having lots of spare time left over to go help the other team. The current system would, I would imagine, reward that team with somewhat more iXP. Shouldn't it?
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Then you get to the "What is more valuable, damage vs buffing?" How are you to determine relative worth for various factors? I've said it above, and I'll say it again: I have yet to see a single player try to leech a trial.
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Very much /signed!
I ended up DCing during my first real run of a BAF, and I ended up on a solo 4th team in the event. Since I apparently got locked that way (there's supposed to be an icon could be used to unlock my character, but I sure as heck couldn't find one... I don't know how I got 'locked' in the first place.) I ended up with next to nothing to show for the entire trial.
This is not really encouraging me...
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I've seen that happen to someone on a league I was leading once. The problem is that if you're on a solo team in a league you don't get access to the team management controls and can't unlock the team to allow yourself to be moved to a "real" team.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
I ended up DCing during my first real run of a BAF, and I ended up on a solo 4th team in the event. Since I apparently got locked that way (there's supposed to be an icon could be used to unlock my character, but I sure as heck couldn't find one... I don't know how I got 'locked' in the first place.) I ended up with next to nothing to show for the entire trial.
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You should be able to use /leagueToggleTeamLock to unlock yourself.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Very much /signed!
I ended up DCing during my first real run of a BAF, and I ended up on a solo 4th team in the event. Since I apparently got locked that way (there's supposed to be an icon could be used to unlock my character, but I sure as heck couldn't find one... I don't know how I got 'locked' in the first place.) I ended up with next to nothing to show for the entire trial. This is not really encouraging me... |
Thanks for your support!
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Very much /signed.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Right now, all Incarnate XP and drops are based on what your individual team does. This should instead be spread out over the entire league.
The same thing applies to Hamidon Raids and Rikti Mothership Raids. |
Last night, I was on a league doing a BAF, and the amount of bickering in the league on who gets to fight the adds was huge. People complaint about the low exp, demanded to be put in the add team. Rather unpleseant experience, a situation that should not even be there.
The BAF is a team (as in the whole league) effort, and iExp should be split between the league, not the groups. I am fairly sure the community is capeable enough to deal herself with leechers and simply kick them if needed.
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I see no way in which the game would benefit from that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My only concern is that the reward system should, like it does everywhere else, make some effort to reward merit. Suppose two teams split on a Lambda and one team is far better than the other, not just getting all their assign weapons but also clearing more critters in the process, and *then* having lots of spare time left over to go help the other team. The current system would, I would imagine, reward that team with somewhat more iXP. Shouldn't it?
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Benefit from what?
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Originally Posted by rsclark
I see no way in which the game would benefit from that.
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I guess it comes down to whether you view leagues as a "team of teams" or a single large team that is broken into sub-groups for organizational purposes.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My only concern is that the reward system should, like it does everywhere else, make some effort to reward merit. Suppose two teams split on a Lambda and one team is far better than the other, not just getting all their assign weapons but also clearing more critters in the process, and *then* having lots of spare time left over to go help the other team. The current system would, I would imagine, reward that team with somewhat more iXP. Shouldn't it?
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Personally I take the latter view and as such believe that they should not receive more than the other team. If one team is substantially faster than the other it means that the league leader failed to balance the power levels of the two teams adequately (which is hard since it's partly a matter of player skill which is hard to access). Additionally the success or failure of the trial as a whole is dependent on everyone. I don't entirely oppose merit based awards but I think they should be based on individual contributions rather than the contribution of your sub-group, especially in situations where the assignment of your subgroup to a particular task has a larger impact on your rewards than actual skill.
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I take the view of 2-50 players focused on a single task is "one team". This includes Missions, TFs, Trials (both "old" and incarnate), and Raids (CoP, Hami, Rikti Mothership). If the teams were working at cross purpose (PVP, Base Raids), then they should be judged separately.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I guess it comes down to whether you view leagues as a "team of teams" or a single large team that is broken into sub-groups for organizational purposes.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Personally I take the latter view and as such believe that they should not receive more than the other team. If one team is substantially faster than the other it means that the league leader failed to balance the power levels of the two teams adequately (which is hard since it's partly a matter of player skill which is hard to access). Additionally the success or failure of the trial as a whole is dependent on everyone. I don't entirely oppose merit based awards but I think they should be based on individual contributions rather than the contribution of your sub-group, especially in situations where the assignment of your subgroup to a particular task has a larger impact on your rewards than actual skill.
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There is an even bigger problem that this that I've noticed though and which I'm quite sure is WAD. It seems to me that toons which deal quite a lot more devastation upon the enemy get to have a greater chance to roll on the higher tables (very rare and rare instead of uncommon, common, or dud) as well. I haven't finished getting a fully representative sample but I do know this, my brute who is normally placed on the ambush team has done 40 BAF and gotten 1 VR, 11 Rare, 26 Uncommon, and 2 Common. My debuffing controller who always fights the AVs on the other hand has done 15 and gotten 5 uncommons and 10 commons.
The good part of the design above is the one time I was on my MM, died and had to go to get the phone I got the dud (10 threads) pool only....I have no objection to that.
The bad part is my debuffer is clearly going to fall well behind my brute in incarnate slotting for doing what she's supposed to. That is poor design and lame.
I've been on a BAF recently which failed because people have begun to exploit the problem and we had 16 people fighting the adds and 8 fighting the AVs......time ran out before the AVs died.
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As it turns out, it just might.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I don't entirely oppose merit based awards but I think they should be based on individual contributions rather than the contribution of your sub-group, especially in situations where the assignment of your subgroup to a particular task has a larger impact on your rewards than actual skill.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
I can see a concern over league-wide shared drops from zone events, like MS raids, but really, so what? You already get partial credit by one toon on a team spamming AoEs and doing minor damage on as many mobs as he can hit. Sharing kills among the league would actually cut down on that practice and encourage players to kill what's in front of them.
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Hate to say it, but I've done this. On one MSR I was on the lag was so bad for me that if I fired off an attack I was rooted in place for as much as 5 minutes. As long as I didn't hit an attack I was fine, I could move around. So, out of pure frustration I just moved from mob to mob letting my AoE toggle do minor damage to everything I got close to.So, yes, any concern about giving too many v-merits is a foolish concern since by using this tactic one can pretty much insure a merit for every rikti defeated during the entire event anyway.
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I would like to be able to use Recall Friend on league mates. It makes no sense that I can't teleport a dead league mate to safety. It reminds me of back in the day when we couldn't give Isnpirations to teamates who were oppisite factions. I understand you don't want us sharing team buffs leauge wide because 64 people with Artic Fog would be crazy unbalanced. But Recall friend would not be over powered like that. Its a simple quality of life issue just like being able to pass awakens was back then.
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Yeah it has always sort of bugged me that the League doesn't share the XP, etc.. Now the newer tactics where both AVs are pulled to the helipad (the ADD Spawning point) does allow all three teams more access to both the AVs and the ADD and I did notice a significant increase in the amount of XP I got that way but still... If 24 peope are attacking the BAF then all 24 sould get IXP and share in salvage, recipes and reward drops.
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/Signed. I feel that some leaguers get the bum rap too often.
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I'm happy to note that with Issue 20.5 this will not be as much of a problem:
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Originally Posted by Avatea
Incarnate System
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I didnt know this. I thought everyone got the same.|
Originally Posted by baron_inferno
I agree with all of the above. This can get especially frustrating if some league leaders tend to group players together based on their AT/role. For example damage groups, tanking groups or support groups. As far as I can tell, right now the distribution of iexp is based on on the amount of damage each group has done on a mob. That formula makes no sense because not all ATs were created equal when it comes to damage output. Even ATs that have a plethora of lighter hitting AoE damage options will be more welcome than a ST AV-killing specialist.
Edit: This current damage based iexp distribution formula also encourages the forming of *stacked* kill-steal groups that we see oh so often in other MMO's raids. Not an encouraging thought at all. After all, wasn't encouraging cooperation and team play the whole point behind these multi team trials? Why have a reward mechanic that literally sets the teams against one another in a competition to see who can hog the most iexp? |
P.S. I thought all ATs damage was equal j/k lol. Tell that to my poor defenders.
Still, anything that causes people to elect to not follow directions to the actual detriment of the raid should be carefully reviewed.
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