What is the advantage of a scrapper over a brute?
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2011-04-04 10:44 in Scrappers
Scrappers have a higher base damage, so they benefit more from damage buffs than brutes. At their damage caps, scrappers do outdamage brutes.
The largest benefit, in my mind, is not having to chase a Fury bar. Jumping into a spawn and doing full damage with your first attack is something important to a lot of people.
Another benefit is that most scrappers do not have taunt auras. Then again, some people like taunt auras. But if you don't want a lot of attention from the mobs, then a scrapper will be more fun for you.
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And you don't have to spend any time redside, if you don't like their slums or being a villain.
A Scrapper can go from 'cold' to full damage on their first attack. This is a good thing if you've got a problematic mob in a spawn that absolutely positively has to go the the Zig NOW. There's a Sapper? Build up, Soaring Dragon, Golden Dragonfly. I see no Sapper.
A Brute takes a little while to get up to speed (Unless they've got the Villain Alignment power, which means instant 100% Fury <grin>), but is more robust due to higher HP and higher Resist caps (if you can get anywhere near them). The slightly slower start can make it interesting if your first spawn includes a troublesome mob, but once you're rolling then you're golden, assuming you've got your endurance under control.
A Scrapper only gets the aggro they want (barring sets with taunt auras like Invuln/WP/Shield, and those sets WANT the mobs sround them for the buffs from those taunt auras), and can exist easily on a team of multiple scrappers, forming a sort of mobile blender.
A Brute wants aggro. Because Aggro means Fury which means SMASH! Multiple Brutes form an uneasy partnership, fighting each other for precious Aggro/Fury/SMASH!
(please note, the above are gross generalisations, and I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who those generalisations don't fit, but they're the main differences that occurred to me 
)
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
Brutes are awesome once they get going and can remain going. I find playing one 1-20 one of the more unfun ATs to do so. I have a love/hate relationship with fury. Scrappers are pure unadulterated "Go." I have a number of scrappers, but I'll only ever have a small number of brutes.
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Or you can start in Praetoria.|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
And you don't have to spend any time redside, if you don't like their slums or being a villain.
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Originally Posted by Canine
A Brute wants aggro. Because Aggro means Fury which means SMASH! Multiple Brutes form an uneasy partnership, fighting each other for precious Aggro/Fury/SMASH!
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Other brutes/tanks on the team doesn't make near the difference it used to.
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Which is why I try to let the Brutes take aggro when I'm on my tanker unless they're a few seconds from dying. At which point I taunt them off near them so they can have a breather to heal.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
rutes and aggro for fury does make it tougher with teammates that diminish a brute's aggro. Tankers are probably the worst for that since they compete with a brute for aggro but don't get any fury benefit for it.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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I hate to pick on Regeneration, but it just isn't what it used to be. Every mitigation options has it's strengths and weakness; so they will excel in some scenarios and struggles in others. In the balance of excel vs struggle, I find Regeneration struggling more often then excelling. That's my experience and I state that knowing full well some players do extremely well with Regeneration scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
Sorry if this topic has been discussed to death, I'm not smart enough to find anything relevant with the search.
My main is a claws/regen/fire scrapper, and he is what I consider my best built character (ill post my build when I get home). I still get the impression that brutes survive better and kill faster than I do, though I haven't compared the math in any detail. What is it that scrappers do better than any other AT? |
As to the scrapper vs brute debate, it varies greatly from set to set. Obviously some power sets are not shared, but when comparing identical builds, some brute variations will be superior, while with others scrappers will be superior.
Now these are my personal experiences.
DM/DA is considerably more powerful as a scrapper vs a brute. DM is weaker than other attack sets for building Fury and Dark Armor mitigation toggles (CoF or OG) are counter productive to building fury. Combined and DM/DA brute is constantly struggling for Fury while a DM/DA scrapper jumps in and goes to town immediately.
DB/WP works really well for damage output as a brute as it does a scrapper. At this point, the scales tip rather favorably for the brute as WP becomes more survivable the more HP you have. Barring external buffs, advantage goes to the Brute.
Now that's just two examples of identical power sets. You can't just generalize brute vs scrapper as the difference varies greatly with each set combo.
IMHO, there is not clear cut superiority.
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Huh? DM to me has always been one of the best attack sets for building fury, the first two powers are like a buzzsaw.
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Originally Posted by Desmodos
DM is weaker than other attack sets for building Fury
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I find it the complete opposite. All your attacks are slotted with two damage SOs 21 levels early as soon as you throw two punches. Once you get going, especially with inherent stamina, you can get to the 140% bonus damage of 70% fury. That's four damage SOs slotted in your powers within moments of stepping off the chopper... and the mobs aren't scaled for that at all.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Brutes are awesome once they get going and can remain going. I find playing one 1-20 one of the more unfun ATs to do so. I have a love/hate relationship with fury. Scrappers are pure unadulterated "Go." I have a number of scrappers, but I'll only ever have a small number of brutes.
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Combined with something like Stone Melee and a group of three minions goes down in three hits and an auto-brawl or two.
I can level a brute to 20 solo in an afternoon without hesitation. Scrappers I pause at 6. Then at 10. Then 14. Then 18. Then 22... and THEN they're fun for me.
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The ideal DM attack chain does not include Shadow Punch.|
Originally Posted by Krogoth
Huh? DM to me has always been one of the best attack sets for building fury, the first two powers are like a buzzsaw.
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For optimal DM ST damage you want to chain Smite-->Siphon Life-->Smite-->Midnights Grasp.
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This saddens me to no end as I mess with MiDS to try and change this.|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
I hate to pick on Regeneration, but it just isn't what it used to be. Every mitigation options has it's strengths and weakness; so they will excel in some scenarios and struggles in others. In the balance of excel vs struggle, I find Regeneration struggling more often then excelling. That's my experience and I state that knowing full well some players do extremely well with Regeneration scrappers.
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For PvE builds, it just seems like Regen is at the bottom of the barrel now. :/
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At least Regen has Ice Armor and Force Field to keep it company at the bottom of the barrel. Both of those sets need attention just as bad as Regen. Ice Armor has the worst mitigation out of all the Tanker sets, and the gap gets worse when comparing IO set builds. Force Field doesn't do much more than buff defense, while the other Defender sets have debuffs, buffs, or desirable (not knockback) status effects.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
For PvE builds, it just seems like Regen is at the bottom of the barrel now. :/
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I agree with both of you. It is something that will hurt me forever I think. It is like that childhood trauma that haunts a person forever. Statesman and Geko will forever be on my poop list because of this. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
This saddens me to no end as I mess with MiDS to try and change this.
For PvE builds, it just seems like Regen is at the bottom of the barrel now. :/ |
On topic: Consistency is the simple answer. My scrapper will do the same damage against one mob, or 10. At the start, and at the end.
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Having an Ice Armor Tanker, I can agree with this. :/ Not that it isn't awesome, but a bit more Defense Debuff Resistance and some S/L Resist would help Ice Armor a lot imo.|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
At least Regen has Ice Armor and Force Field to keep it company at the bottom of the barrel. Both of those sets need attention just as bad as Regen. Ice Armor has the worst mitigation out of all the Tanker sets, and the gap gets worse when comparing IO set builds. Force Field doesn't do much more than buff defense, while the other Defender sets have debuffs, buffs, or desirable (not knockback) status effects.
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I don't know what Regen needs. But I'm trying to make a MA/Regen build I can enjoy more than my DB/WP build, so far, no luck. :/ LESS DPS AND LESS SURVIVABILITY! Grrrrrr!
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The BrandX Collection
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Ahhhh...|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I don't know what Regen needs. But I'm trying to make a MA/Regen build I can enjoy more than my DB/WP build, so far, no luck. :/ LESS DPS AND LESS SURVIVABILITY! Grrrrrr!
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I see the problem there..... and it's not Regen
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Well, I'm open for tips and/or suggestions |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Ahhhh...
I see the problem there..... and it's not Regen |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Lies! The aggro cap prevents that =(
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Originally Posted by Canine
A Scrapper only gets the aggro they want
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the problem is you need moar moneh!|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, I'm open for tips and/or suggestions
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
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I've started leveling a new brute, and every brute has been the same for me as well: the early levels are immensely easier than for scrappers. Its never been hard to generate a lot of fury, and the current incarnation of Fury means it lingers even longer between spawns than it used to. I've actually Rested after a spawn and left rest with a lingering 40% damage buff, which is bordering on ludicrous. And at lower levels, the break even point between Scrappers and Brutes when neither are doing much in the way of damage slotting is just about 60% damage. About 30% fury. That is trivial to generate and average. Not only does this mean you kill faster, it also means you burn less endurance per kill which is important before you slot up Stamina or start slotting attacks with significant endurance reduction. Averaging +100% damage (50% fury) - which I'm finding to be a very conservative estimate even solo - a low level Brute is dealing about 20% more dps and is about 20% more endurance efficient than a comparable Scrapper. It evens out a bit at the high levels when the break even point jumps to about +130% damage buff (+65% fury), but at low levels Fury is much more decisive.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
I find it the complete opposite. All your attacks are slotted with two damage SOs 21 levels early as soon as you throw two punches. Once you get going, especially with inherent stamina, you can get to the 140% bonus damage of 70% fury. That's four damage SOs slotted in your powers within moments of stepping off the chopper... and the mobs aren't scaled for that at all.
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I've seen unslotted brute KO Blow deal 140 damage at level ten while playing solo with no external buffs. For reference, unslotted blaster Total focus does 198 damage at level fifty. And that is a power brutes get at level eight competing with a power blasters get at level thirty eight. Defiance will increase the blaster number by some amount, but its still a remarkable comparison.
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Well here's a quick and dirty....|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, I'm open for tips and/or suggestions
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On topic at hand...
I might have an answer when Scrappers get SS... as is
Hmmm...my build in the end is planned to have about 30% M/R Defense and 21% AOE Defense...think that'd be enough? Maybe I just wasn't thinking that'd be enough to equal my /WP in survival.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Sounds about right. I do pretty well with my regen, but I feel all of my young brutes are going to be much better when they hit 50. Though I made a kinetic/elec scrapper today that also seems like it will be much better than claws/regen, so maybe it is regen that is making me think scrappers arent as good.|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
I hate to pick on Regeneration, but it just isn't what it used to be. Every mitigation options has it's strengths and weakness; so they will excel in some scenarios and struggles in others. In the balance of excel vs struggle, I find Regeneration struggling more often then excelling.
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Anyway heres this, if anyone wants to see it. It isnt perfect, but it gets the job done.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
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Mr. Kingkillaha: Level 50 Natural Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strike
- (A) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance
- (3) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge
- (3) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (5) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage
- (5) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (A) Healing IO
- (A) Harmonized Healing - Heal/Endurance
- (7) Harmonized Healing - Endurance/Recharge
- (7) Harmonized Healing - Heal/Recharge
- (9) Harmonized Healing - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (9) Harmonized Healing - Heal
- (11) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod
- (11) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy
- (13) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge
- (A) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (13) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (15) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (15) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (17) Obliteration - Damage
- (17) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance
- (19) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
- (19) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
- (21) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
- (21) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge
- (23) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance
- (A) Harmonized Healing - Heal/Endurance
- (23) Harmonized Healing - Endurance/Recharge
- (25) Harmonized Healing - Heal/Recharge
- (25) Harmonized Healing - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (27) Harmonized Healing - Heal
- (27) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Kismet - Accuracy +6%
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Miracle - Heal
- (29) Miracle - Heal/Endurance
- (29) Miracle - Endurance/Recharge
- (31) Miracle - Heal/Recharge
- (31) Miracle - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
- (31) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
- (33) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
- (33) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (33) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (34) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
- (34) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/Endurance
- (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (A) Aegis - Endurance/Recharge
- (34) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
- (36) Aegis - Resistance
- (36) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (36) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (37) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage
- (37) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge
- (37) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (39) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Endurance
- (39) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge
- (39) Multi Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (40) Recharge Reduction IO
- (40) Healing IO
- (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
- (40) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (42) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range
- (42) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
- (42) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
- (43) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (43) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge
- (43) Efficacy Adaptor - Accuracy/Recharge
- (45) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
- (A) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Hold
- (45) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Recharge
- (A) Undermined Defenses - Recharge
- (45) Undermined Defenses - Recharge/Endurance
- (46) Undermined Defenses - Defense Debuff
- (46) Undermined Defenses - Defense Debuff/Endurance
- (46) Undermined Defenses - Defense Debuff/Recharge
- (48) Undermined Defenses - Defense Debuff/Recharge/Endurance
- (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
- (48) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (48) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range
- (50) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
- (50) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
- (50) Accuracy IO
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
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Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Healing IO
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
Level 4: Ninja Run
Code:
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*fixed?
Sorry if this topic has been discussed to death, I'm not smart enough to find anything relevant with the search.
My main is a claws/regen/fire scrapper, and he is what I consider my best built character (ill post my build when I get home). I still get the impression that brutes survive better and kill faster than I do, though I haven't compared the math in any detail.
What is it that scrappers do better than any other AT?