Flight power - essential or not even close?


Bright

 

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Originally Posted by Jaxson B View Post
The first one that comes to mind is super speed - with a few responses along the lines of "super jump and flight, with super jump primarily for melee and flight primarily for ranged", are people choosing these over super speed for any particular reason? Is it for mobility in a PvE/PvP setting? Just the fact that you have greater vertical range, instead of just relying on ground speed? Or are the pre-reqs (I'm guessing people go with Air Superiority and Combat Jumping) just better than Hasten (as a new player coming from a mainly WoW background, this bit I don't get - Hasten seems like a fantastic power for most archetypes, potentially almost doubling dps).
Super speed = fastest ground movement, no vertical movement, potential aggro issues.

Super Jump = fast distance covered, medium vertical movement, you have to watch where you land to avoid aggro.

Flight = slow distance covered, unlimited vertical movement, safest travel power, least chance at aggro in most cases, can step away and likely be ok when you return.

Teleport = decent distance covered, unlimited movement, possible to teleport into mobs, good chance at falling into a mob (and if you fall far enough you'll be at low HP), requires you to be present.

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Originally Posted by Jaxson B View Post
The second question pertains to Super Jump itself - because I haven't had a chance to test many power pool powers out myself yet (and I'm hesitant to bloat my second tree with it just to test it, as I don't want to throw away respecs unnecessarily), does it actually increase movement speed? Like, am I going to get places significantly faster with Super Jump than with just sprint?
Suggestion: At level 10, you get an alternate build. Have two builds with different travel powers and see for yourself.




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

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Originally Posted by Jaxson B View Post
with super jump primarily for melee
Here I think it's the mobility of Combat Jumping while fighting, and for Def based toons the +Def Combat Jumping gives.

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and flight primarily for ranged
Ranged toons can "hover at range" and use their attacks, while avoiding melee attacks from enemies.


 

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One of the disadvantages of Hasten is that because you've got powers recharging faster, you're going to be using them more often which means your endurance recovery may not be able to keep up. Especially, if you're using AOEs more since they cost more endurance. Plus, Hasten itself has a back ended endurance cost, ie it takes a chunk of endurance when it expires. The worst case scenario is not paying attention and suddenly zeroing out on endurance and your armors turning off.

In regards to Super Jump and meleers, typically the reasons are the prerequisite Combat Jump and the later Acrobatics. Combat jump includes immobilization protection and can take defense enhancements. Acrobatics includes minor hold protection and good knockback protection. Both are especially appealing by those who take the Fire Armor powerset because its anti-mez armor lacks immobilization and knockback protection, along with having no defense component in its armors. Fire Armor was all the rage a few years ago back before the Burn power was "fixed" for being overpowered. Fire Armor is the extreme example, though. The secondary effects of the powers are also good for adding additional to existing similar attributes of other powersets.


Teams are the number one killer of soloists.

 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
Teleport = decent distance covered, unlimited movement, possible to teleport into mobs, good chance at falling into a mob (and if you fall far enough you'll be at low HP), requires you to be present.
Teleport is, heads and shoulders above all else, the fastest travel power. Unless you're just going a few feet, Teleport will win on speed by a large margin, and there's ~2 seconds of hover time after each teleport. It's not hard to teleport very large distances, sans fly/hover, without falling. Plus, you can teleport up into the air and totally avoid mobs, or use teleport in a mission (where space is confined) to teleport past a mob (something SS can also pretty much do- thanks to the included stealth component).


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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!

 

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Originally Posted by SerialBeggar View Post

In regards to Super Jump and meleers, typically the reasons are the prerequisite Combat Jump and the later Acrobatics. Combat jump includes immobilization protection and can take defense enhancements. Acrobatics includes minor hold protection and good knockback protection. Both are especially appealing by those who take the Fire Armor powerset because its anti-mez armor lacks immobilization and knockback protection, along with having no defense component in its armors. Fire Armor was all the rage a few years ago back before the Burn power was "fixed" for being overpowered. Fire Armor is the extreme example, though. The secondary effects of the powers are also good for adding additional to existing similar attributes of other powersets.
Fiery Aura has become quite popular again. Burn no longer causes enemies to run away, and has its damage frontloaded. Also, Consume a Fiery Embrace both recently had very nice buffs. SS/FA is one of the current favorite farming builds.

For reference, Jax, there are IOs that prevent knockback, so armor sets without built-in knockback protection don't pick up Acrobatics as much as they used to.



 

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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight View Post
Teleport is, heads and shoulders above all else, the fastest travel power.
Teleport needs to be slotted with some EndRedux and Range, but yes once you do you can teleport like mad provided you have clear spaces to TP to. Long distance travel it's faster than super speed, or medium distance or tricky terrain about as fast as Super Speed.

The disadvantage is that over short distances it's a pain to aim and TP. TP is much slower for short hops than say Combat Jumping, Fly/Hover, etc. Forget caves.


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sans fly/hover

To expand on this, you can run many travel powers at the same time. Running Hover (or Fly) and TPing around you can TP into mid air and just hang there. You'll never fall (unless hit by -Fly or similar) and you'll never have to worry about server lag when you TP. Hover also gives you "short range tactical maneuvering" that TP lacks.

The disadvantage is that it soaks up a second pool power which arguably you could have been better used for other things.


 

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<delete - was off topic>


 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
Because Ninja Run and Beast Run are classed as temp powers. All temp powers are disabled for the duration of the Incarnate Trials. I don't see that changing with future Incarnate Trials.
Is there really that much need for Travel Powers though? I haven't tried it yet but I haven't seen the need for Temp Travel Powers on "Master Of" Task Force runs besides it being slightly annoying getting from place to place.


 

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Mmm...

Getting flight as a power or a temp, is a matter of perspective. I am essentially a role-player, thus all of my alts have biographies and are concept characters as well: Thus each of their powers they utilize must have a reason for being, as a result my alts are not going to win any awards for exceptional performance.

As a role player, in my mind, flight is a badge of distinction, the real cool and powerful heroes usually fly, there are exceptions, but to me, if you are really super you fly.

Now for the tech minded super types, the flight graphics does not make sense, and thus are revolting to a role player or concept character maker. As a result the jet pack is the way to go from an asthetics perspective.

If you are a min-max type of player, you really should by pass flight as a pool power and seriously consider leap, for combat jumping is an excellent power in the pool which adds full defense against all forms of attacks, you also choose maneuvers's defensive power and fight pool's weave and bam! You just got yourself as much as 12% defense against all forms of attack, and if you are wise during leveling you can have these bonuses available even in the lowest leveled TF/SF. You could actually use "hover" instead of combat jumping and get the same effect, but hover is broken with regards to "follow" it never closes in to allow for melee combat ranges.

If you don't acquire flight, for max defense gain and ease of play. Do buy a flight pack from your most convenient vendor and keep it for a rainy day, you may be going to Fire base Zulu where you will definetly need or for a Positron part II where they come handy, but if I remember right, Positron TF gives yo the flight temp as well, but not sure, I don't do Posi very often ( I don't like the excessive number of ambushes in part I)

Hugs

Sue


 

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All the cool kids Fly.

Superjump is cool for playing 'cross the zone without touching the ground' when you're waiting on some friend to log on or a TF to form up.

Super Speed is faster than Teleport, until you get used to using Teleport. Also looks cool and is fun to careen around the city.

Teleport is fastest way to get long distances but does take some getting the hang of. Hover is almost a necessity during the learning curve and for short distances that require maneuvering around buildings, it's slow because you have to keep jumping past points and turning around. Once you get the hang of using buildings as stopping points without blocking your next jump, it gets less bothersome.

Super Jump plus Super Speed makes you an awesome looking bouncing comet.

Really the travel power you choose is more about style than function. Only in the really large zones is it ever going to make more than about five seconds difference in travel time from mission door to mission door. A lot of people I know choose their travel power based on the lead in power chosen.

Hasten is quite popular with many people, making Super Running one of the more common travel powers.

Teleport Friend is very common as well, being able to grab your friend out of trouble, or after a kill that has left an AV standing over him. Or just to get him to the mission door faster because he joined late or had to stop and level up.

Hover and Combat Jump both have defensive value. Combat Jump has a thematic feel for a lot of toons and used to be popular with the melee crowd to move around a skirmish but with everyone having Hurdle now it's becoming less needful. Hover gives one of the best defensive bonuses in the 'below ten' game. I call it the "Out of Reach" defense. The ranged attack is the weakest attack of many low level mobs. And if they have a target in range of their primary attack they may shift aggro to pop it off instead of continuing to use a weaker attack at you.

Other than a few 'badge spots' which require special means to reach, you do not 'need' any single travel power to do anything in the game. And for those hard to reach spots you can almost always find someone with teleport friend who will bring you over if you do not have a temp travel power to make it on your own.

But all the cool kids Fly.


"SARS, Bird Flue, 9/11, Anthrax in the Mail, Mad Cow Disease. Pope John Paul didn't die, he preboarded." - Christopher Titus "5th Annual End of the World Tour"

 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
Suggestion: At level 10, you get an alternate build. Have two builds with different travel powers and see for yourself.
Probably the best advice in the entire thread.

Try it out. Even if a power isn't 'Teh Fastest' it might be more fun. Or you might just like it better.

Also, totally disagree with some of the others. Teleport is not 'Head and Shoulders' above the rest in speed. Not unless you're traveling the entire length of Independence Port. And unless you've got the endurance slotted up well, you're gonna have to stop and rest and the Super Jumpers and Super Runners will still beat you and the Flier will almost tie you.

[Edit]
Just to stress a point here. Teleport is the only power which takes more endurance than you can effectively recover while in use without slotting. For example, while Flying, Running or Jumping, I can recover endurance while using. On the Gripping Hand, Teleport will flatline you from a full endurance bar if you have any real distance to travel. So if you're on a Task Force and have to go from the middle of Independence Port to the train station, hop to Atlas and then go into Perez Park; the runners, fliers and jumpers can start with nearly empty endurance bars and be fully rested by the time they get to the mission door. The teleporter could start with a full endurance bar and he will still have to stop and rest along the way and very likely be exhausted by the time he reaches the door.
[/Edit]

Short of the Shadow Shard and IP, you're almost never going to be traveling long distances in a super straight line anyways. Most often you'll be trying to maneuver around buildings in Steel Canyon trying to drop by the trainer, stop at a store to sell and then find a the entrance to a mission door; a door which is almost always going to be on the other side of the building from where you are so you will have to teleport past it and then 'port back. And that's not even considering the mission doors in Skyway and Bricks that are underneath things.

Also, if you are searching an outdoor map for glowies, or just street sweeping, or doing any sort of search then teleporting is next to useless.

To reiterate what I said in my other post, even if I accede to the claims people make about how much faster Teleport is over the other powers, it's rarely more than a five second difference. You're never going to find a reasonable player who will kick you from a team because you have Flight instead of Teleport. Or Super Jumping with Jump Kick instead of Combat Jump.

Try one out. If you don't like it, you've got your second build to try something different. If both turn out to be not what you're looking for, hit up Terra Volta for a respec. If waiting for that is intolerable, make a new character. It doesn't take that long to get to level ten after all.


"SARS, Bird Flue, 9/11, Anthrax in the Mail, Mad Cow Disease. Pope John Paul didn't die, he preboarded." - Christopher Titus "5th Annual End of the World Tour"

 

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A side effect peeve with taking up the Teleport pool is that you will encounter team mates who assume that you picked up Recall Friend as the prerequisite power and thus expect you to chauffeur them to every mission door.

There is no need to speed.


Teams are the number one killer of soloists.

 

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Originally Posted by SerialBeggar View Post
Villain side: from Mercy Island, take the Ferry to Grandville. Run up to the central plaza where the Trainer Arbitor is. Behind and to the right is the Jet Pack vendor, who looks like another Arbitor. Again, 10K Inf for the Jet Pack.
An alternative transport from Mercy to Grandville is by helicopter. New toons will arrive in the north base in Mercy. Behind Kalinda is a helicopter. Click on the pilot or heli door. Select Grandville.
When you arrive in Grand, run up the ramp to a wide street. Head towards Lord Recluse's statue. Near the statue is a jetpack vendor. When you buy it, you will hear a 'bing' sound which indicates that you bought it. If you don't see it in your tray, go to Powers->Temporary box. Drag the jetpack icon to your tray and you're good to go!
To get back to Kalinda in Mercy, fly over to the helicopter and select Mercy North.
In terms of power selection, I don't pick fly since I can use the jetpack and purchased the Martial arts pack for Ninja run. I usually pick Teleport for Recall friend and sometimes Superspeed.


 

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Certain areas require fly or teleport. Grandville and the Shadow Shard are the only places that require such travel. Luckily, that is where you can buy jetpacks.


The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.

 

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Originally Posted by Jaxson B View Post
Thanks, it's great to hear that I don't even need to worry about getting my hands on a constant stream of recipes. =P

Been planning out my MM, and hated feeling like I had to take Hover just in case, so it's a load off knowing I can give the slot to a more relevant power. =)
Thats funny. At 49 I took hover on my master mind because I couldn't come up with anything better to take.


 

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Originally Posted by Roughtrade View Post
Also, totally disagree with some of the others. Teleport is not 'Head and Shoulders' above the rest in speed. Not unless you're traveling the entire length of Independence Port. And unless you've got the endurance slotted up well, you're gonna have to stop and rest and the Super Jumpers and Super Runners will still beat you and the Flier will almost tie you.
I had to poke my head in at this. Unlslotted, this is undoubtedly true. You'll be tired if you teleport more than ten or so times, and find you have to get to a rooftop quickly to catch your breath or fall to the concrete below.

Once you have the endurance to manage it though, and once you've got a little range slotted, teleport is a monster. My namesake has it, and as long as nobody gets a head-start and we're travelling more than twenty feet, I almost always arrive first. With each teleport, the superspeeder gets lower on my screen until I can't see them anymore and am just this flash that keeps appearing in the distance.

Unslotted teleport is nasty. Slotted teleport is fantastic.


 

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Not even close to essential. I don't have fly on a single character, and pretty much only my blasters take hover.

For the majority of my characters, I just make sure I have a jetpack power and that meets any flight needs I might ever have.


 

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Originally Posted by TheUnnamedOne View Post
Is there really that much need for Travel Powers though? I haven't tried it yet but I haven't seen the need for Temp Travel Powers on "Master Of" Task Force runs besides it being slightly annoying getting from place to place.
On the Lambda trial, once you have entered the complex there are some turrets on the wall. To get to them you either need super jump(gve jumppack works) or fly or a very frustrating wallride up certain arches. The turrets hurt so the usual plan involves destroying them.


 

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The travel powers I choose are mostly dictated by what the concept of that particular character, so I have experience with all four of them.

My main, and my namesake character Spectreblade is a Broadsword/Dark Armor Scrapper, and I have Leaping as my power pool on him, and have all four powers in that pool. Jump Kick, while probably not the best attack power out there, is useful as a low-level attack-chain filler and another damage type in my arsenal, and Combat Jumping and Acrobatics shore up the holes in Dark Armor's mez protection. While Cloak of Darkness provides Immobilize protection, I have to turn it off when escorting hostages, which would strip me of that protection if I didn't have Combat Jumping, while Acrobatics provides Knockback protection that Dark Armor lacks entirely.

As for the other pools, One thing I've noticed while playing Motoko Michi, my Willpower/War Mace Tanker with the Teleport pool, is that it's the only travel power with no suppression, and the only one unaffected by slows. On many occasions, I've found myself in a slow patch like Quicksand or Caltrops, and responded by teleporting behind the offending foe and sending him twinkling off into the distance with a well-placed Jawbreaker. Stone Armor Tankers and Brutes often take this as their travel pool for similar reasons, as it's also the only travel power they can use at the same time as Rooted (mez protection) and Granite Armor (T9).


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I almost always pick Flight. Not because it's the safest or the easiest for navigation purposes, but because for me it's just flat-out FUN to fly. I like my crew getting around that way.

(The only two characters of mine who don't fly both have Super Jump, which is also quite a lot of fun. Go-Go super bouncy-Bane! XD)


@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...

 

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Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
I'm the same opinion as Rodion, SJ for melee, flight for ranged. Not a hard rule but 90% of the time true. Only break it for theme reasons.
I'm in the same boat. With the exception of my two zombies (ever wonder how the zombie always appears behind their victim, even when they've outrun them by miles? Zombie Teleport, duh!) and one scrapper, my ranged toons are flying and my melee toons are jumpers.


 

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wow, i'm in the minority.

every single character i have has super speed + combat jumping. super speed will put you close to the movement speed cap, and combat jumping will allow you to clear most minor obstacles with ease. once you know the game maps (and i started in 2004...), i've found this combination to be the fastest and most reliable way to travel.

i tried really hard to use just hover + siphon speed, which put me at the fly speed cap. i did it for years even, but the last respec on my main, i went for SS+CJ because i was sick of siphoning all of the time. i realize this is a outlier, but i can't stand fly as my only travel power. with all of the temps, any time i really need to have vertical movement, i have the pocket D jetpack, and then temp flight powers if i need more than 30 seconds.


50: Ill/Kin(A+,R,J)-1047 badges RE/Dark(A) Fire/Elec Warshade BS/Regen Necro/Poison Ice/Fiery(A+) Son/Son Bane(A) FM/DA(A) DM/Nin Grav/Icy
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Originally Posted by starphoenix View Post
Certain areas require fly or teleport. Grandville and the Shadow Shard are the only places that require such travel. Luckily, that is where you can buy jetpacks.
For grandville I have no idea.

For the shadow shard you are absolutely wrong unless you refuse to use geysers. The Shadow Shard is MASSIVE but once you get used to geysers with them making you move faster then anything else can besides TP friend you can get from one end Firebase Zulu to the other with SJ before you could go top to bottom of IP.(this changes for the other 3 of course because even though the horizontal movement is similar you also have to go up to a mile and a half up)


 

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Originally Posted by psycheout View Post
For grandville I have no idea.

For the shadow shard you are absolutely wrong unless you refuse to use geysers. The Shadow Shard is MASSIVE but once you get used to geysers with them making you move faster then anything else can besides TP friend you can get from one end Firebase Zulu to the other with SJ before you could go top to bottom of IP.(this changes for the other 3 of course because even though the horizontal movement is similar you also have to go up to a mile and a half up)
Hell, I have Fly or TP on most of the characters I run SSTFs with and I still use the geysers to get around. It's just that much more fun!


 

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Originally Posted by starphoenix View Post
Certain areas require fly or teleport. Grandville and the Shadow Shard are the only places that require such travel. Luckily, that is where you can buy jetpacks.
Like psycheout said, this is not true for the Shadow Shard, as the gravity geysers will get you anywhere you want to go, and will do it much faster than by flying.

You also don't need fly in Grandville. There are elevators scattered around to ensure that. It's possible to get the Master of the Airwaves badge without even using the elevators, just walking.

You can get every exploration badge with Super Jump. A handful are impossible with only Super Speed, but they're quite rare. A lot of the ones that look impossible, really aren't. For example... it's possible to get the exploration badge on top of the Terra Volta reactor dome with only Super Speed. It's very difficult, but it's possible.


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