You see and this is why I will never PvP under this system.
You are going to have to teach players how to play a game they have been playing? Yes, it is as bad as it sounds.
Have you seen the Arcana posts of how PvP works? You literally would require a degree in math to work out what is happening and why.
And this is why people hate MM's in PVP.
How to PVP in CoH: Have billions of influence, make FotM character, purple the heck out of said character.
Nothing else competes. Ever.
Oh, and be sure to bring along a pocket empathy defender and fire blaster.
Characters!:
Pinny - Scrapper
Shadewing - Defender
@Pinny
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More people than not prefer PvE over PvP, but that can be said about pre-i13 PvP as well...I agree that the new system hasn't helped. I do casual zone stuff and PvP is a nice break from..."Go Save Scientists" from a cave full of CoT.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
You see and this is why I will never PvP under this system.
You are going to have to teach players how to play a game they have been playing? Yes, it is as bad as it sounds. Have you seen the Arcana posts of how PvP works? You literally would require a degree in math to work out what is happening and why. |
Even with the wacky mechanics (which aren't difficult to grasp really), the challenge is a good distraction from PvE sometimes.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
I've always been interested in joining a small casual group and experiencing what PvP is like, but this Boot Camp thing sounds like an opportunity to maybe give PvP a try just from a general perspective.
On the whole though, I approve of the idea of making an event for this sort of thing. PvP is nevertheless an aspect of the game often overlooked by players who might be timid towards fighting other players, compared to the general indifference of beating up (or being beaten up) by computer-controlled NPCs.
(Also figured I'd offer a post that doesn't merely criticize the PvP aspect of the game, but rather focuses on the offering made by this group; the subject of the topic! It's groovy to see folks of the City of Heroes/Villains community offer a non-partisan event inviting people to learn more about the other half of the game they play. Of course I work at exactly 2100 on Fridays, but I'd still be interested in hearing about the sessions and how they operate.)
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
You see and this is why I will never PvP under this system.
You are going to have to teach players how to play a game they have been playing? Yes, it is as bad as it sounds. Have you seen the Arcana posts of how PvP works? You literally would require a degree in math to work out what is happening and why. |
I understand and respect your hesitation about the PvP aspect of this game.
The truth is there is a learning curve to all aspects of this game, when you first started playing CoH, you went through a tutorial that gave you some basic information about how the game mechanics works.
Some new aspects of the game also have tutorials on how they work: Crafting and AE. Some aspects of the game people excel at while others just don't understand how things work- look at set bonuses, I often field questions from people about what set bonuses exempt down and how far. What are procs and how do they work.
PvP- is no different, it has a steep learning curve, no one would argue this somethings work, somethings don't. That is the whole point of this event, to share the knowledge of what works and why in PvP. Think of it as the PvP tutorial that they forgot to include in the game.
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Originally Posted by Pinny
How to PVP in CoH: Have billions of influence, make FotM character, purple the heck out of said character.
Nothing else competes. Ever. Oh, and be sure to bring along a pocket empathy defender and fire blaster. |
You have some misconceptions of PvP, but more importantly about this event we are hosting.
Someone once told me that success in PvP is based on 4 components:
1) Your character- yes you are 100% right in your statement that "FoTM" characters flourish in PvP, there is a reason the said characters are popular- because they work- just as there is a reason why the most popular car is the most popular car (its reliable), or the most popular phone is the most popular phone (its does what you want it to do). People toss the term "FoTM" around as if its a bad thing but things are popular for a reason, I mean we all are playing the most popular Super Hero MMO right?
2)Your Build-building a character is just as important as selecting the right character for PvP. Your statement about "Billions" is a very true one, most PvPers spend many billions of inf on their PvP characters. However, purples as a rule are not always the best IOs to slot on a pvp toon.
3) Skill- There is some misconception that PvP is just buttonmashing-rock/paper/scissors. If you bring X and I bring Y, X will always win. The truth is there are some aspects to the PvP game (especially team based PvP which is what this event is all about) that actually takes some skill and practice.
4) Luck-RNG plays a roll in PvP just as it does in PvE.
So out of those 4 aspects of PvP what we are trying to do in PvP Boot Camp is to control as many of them as we can:
1) We will be asking players to create tried and true team based PvP characters (so you have an effective character in PvP).
2) I personally will be making all the builds for the players in this event, and to remove the *gear* from the equation no purple IOs and PvP IOs will be allowed to be slotted in this event. This also opens up the event to players who do not wish to invest *billions* in a pvp character but may wish to try this aspect of the game.
3)The whole point of this event is to teach players the mechanics of what works and why in team PvP.
4) Damn you RNG- we just have to play by it like everyone else.
Thanks for you attention and we hope to see some of you at our event.
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Originally Posted by Grant_Hammerhoof
I've always been interested in joining a small casual group and experiencing what PvP is like, but this Boot Camp thing sounds like an opportunity to maybe give PvP a try just from a general perspective.
On the whole though, I approve of the idea of making an event for this sort of thing. PvP is nevertheless an aspect of the game often overlooked by players who might be timid towards fighting other players, compared to the general indifference of beating up (or being beaten up) by computer-controlled NPCs. (Also figured I'd offer a post that doesn't merely criticize the PvP aspect of the game, but rather focuses on the offering made by this group; the subject of the topic! It's groovy to see folks of the City of Heroes/Villains community offer a non-partisan event inviting people to learn more about the other half of the game they play. Of course I work at exactly 2100 on Fridays, but I'd still be interested in hearing about the sessions and how they operate.) |
It is unfortunate you work right when we will be hosting this event- If you did want to read along most of the information taught is posted on a few threads- the key one is in my sig Victory PvP University.
Thanks for your support.
Yes, wut masq said!
Just poping in to voice my support for the PvP community! I was with you guys up until i13 playing with the good ol' Renegades but I just gave up after i13. I would love to join this but I have a previous obligation in RL that I must attend to but I really hope that you guys get some new blood looking into PvP.
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
I... will pass on this. PvP is a joke. Besides, I wouldn't want to take a class (something I hate doing) on something I hate doing.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Well, when your main is a Fire/Invul Brute, you aren't going to get very far in PvP, even though I'm after the PvP bagdes only. I still have to deal with the notion I'll get randomly picked off even though I'm not actually PvP'ing.
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So my level 20 character still in DOs can beat your level 50 with maximum purples and PVP sets because I'm more skillful?|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
3) Skill- There is some misconception that PvP is just buttonmashing-rock/paper/scissors. If you bring X and I bring Y, X will always win. The truth is there are some aspects to the PvP game (especially team based PvP which is what this event is all about) that actually takes some skill and practice.
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Not going to happen.
Even a level 50 in SOs/standard IOs has no chance against a character specifically built for PVP.
Hell, even a level 50 with a few sets here and there has no chance against a character specifically built for PVP. They will have soft-capped defenses regardless of their AT, permahasten, tons of +damage and +HP/Regen over you.
There's no skill at all involved in CoH's PVP. It's all about whoever pumps the most money into their character.
Characters!:
Pinny - Scrapper
Shadewing - Defender
@Pinny
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I agree with you to an extent, but you are talking apples and oranges. I don't think M was comparing a DOd/SOd toon to an IOd toon for the sake of his discussion. If you take two players that pump the same amount of money into the same build...don't you think the more "skilled" PvPer will usually win?|
Originally Posted by Pinny
So my level 20 character still in DOs can beat your level 50 with maximum purples and PVP sets because I'm more skillful?
Not going to happen. Even a level 50 in SOs/standard IOs has no chance against a character specifically built for PVP. Hell, even a level 50 with a few sets here and there has no chance against a character specifically built for PVP. They will have soft-capped defenses regardless of their AT, permahasten, tons of +damage and +HP/Regen over you. There's no skill at all involved in CoH's PVP. It's all about whoever pumps the most money into their character. |
Also, he is talking about what the heart of this thread is based, team oriented PvP. One person with a purpled out toon and a meh team isn't going to beat a solid team of non purpled members consisting of support, damage etc.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Pinny, this person is here to organize an event for the benefit of those who wish to learn. Your posts do nothing to promote discourse.
While I will not be joining this event, I'm glad to see it happening!
What'd I'd LIKE to see is PvPers helping people's EXISTING BUILDS work. That's about the best way you'd get people interested, especially on Virtue where people care more about their CHARACTERS, not "random avatars with optimal powers". I, as a player, don't want to win so much as I want my character to win.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Actually it has been said many times if you take the same toons and max out ones build and so the other. That an skilled and experienced person playing the SO'd toon would easily beat the unskilled person on the max io'd build. Skill does matter. Also with the current system you build for HP, and recharge not def. |
Originally Posted by Pinny
So my level 20 character still in DOs can beat your level 50 with maximum purples and PVP sets because I'm more skillful?
Not going to happen. Even a level 50 in SOs/standard IOs has no chance against a character specifically built for PVP. Hell, even a level 50 with a few sets here and there has no chance against a character specifically built for PVP. They will have soft-capped defenses regardless of their AT, permahasten, tons of +damage and +HP/Regen over you. There's no skill at all involved in CoH's PVP. It's all about whoever pumps the most money into their character. |
To give an example I was a ringer emp in boot camp 1, I didn't max out the build because it wasn't needed I played with something like 1300 hp (normally my PvP emps would be close to max) and 102% recharge (hardly perma hasten) I was still able to evade and not die though i was targeted numerous times because I had more experience.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
smallz aren't you posting those sign ups in the wrong thread dear
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
LOL I posted on the wrong thread. DURRR
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This is true! I called her every other target and she wouldn't go down cause of her awesome evasion skillz.
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Originally Posted by Phillygirl
To give an example I was a ringer emp in boot camp 1, I didn't max out the build because it wasn't needed I played with something like 1300 hp (normally my PvP emps would be close to max) and 102% recharge (hardly perma hasten) I was still able to evade and not die though i was targeted numerous times because I had more experience.
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Originally Posted by Pinny
So my level 20 character still in DOs can beat your level 50 with maximum purples and PVP sets because I'm more skillful?
Not going to happen. Even a level 50 in SOs/standard IOs has no chance against a character specifically built for PVP. Hell, even a level 50 with a few sets here and there has no chance against a character specifically built for PVP. They will have soft-capped defenses regardless of their AT, permahasten, tons of +damage and +HP/Regen over you. There's no skill at all involved in CoH's PVP. It's all about whoever pumps the most money into their character. |
Your level 20 against my level 50 would have the same outcome as your level 20 against a level 50 NPC in PvE. So I am not sure what your point is as far as that.
As far as my point- I will state it again there are 4 things that go into a sucessful PvP character: 1) The Power Choices, 2) The Build, 3)Skill and 4)Luck. The purpose of this event is to minimize the learning curve for PvP by controlling as many of these as possible leaving only #3-Skill which is what we will be attempting to impart upon the players who join and attend this event.
This event is not about winning (I guess maybe I didn't make that as clear as it should have been) this event is about teaching players about PvP, about what works, about how to create PvP builds, last boot camp I actually also taught marketing skills and profit margins to players so they could afford to IO out their characters. By the end of the last session, everyone who stayed in BC had a pvp viable toon.
It is clear to me that you haven't ventured into a pvp zone or arena match in many issues as since I13 it is impossible to Soft-Cap anything in PvP (outside of running elude), you can not reach perma hasten without numerous outside buffs and even then you will be gimping your character by building for +recharge over +HP. I understand you hesitation and even your apprehension about PvP but you anger is misplaced by directing it at myself and this event.
@EmperorSteele- ty for you kind words of support. I actually have a thread posted on Victory for people to ask for build advice for characters in PvP and have made multiple builds for people on Victory. I would love to see Boot Camps (or PvP Universities) on each server to help assist any player with interest or questions about PvP.
I apologize to anyone if they feel these posts are trying to jam PvP down your throat, this is certainly not the case. Anyone new to PvP who would wish to learn about this aspect of the game we all enjoy is more then welcome to join us.
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Proof that Super Reflexes and Ninjitsu will never go out of F-ing style.|
Originally Posted by Smallzies
This is true! I called her every other target and she wouldn't go down cause of her awesome evasion skillz.
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Well, least my Ninjas have backstories.
Ninjitsu = FTW
My SO'd stalker regularly killed IO'd characters both before and after i13. Skill is the great divide between winning and losing.
Good luck with this effort. I hope it helps grow PvP in this game.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Hi.
Hi Pixel. How have you been?
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Hello Virtue,
PvP University is hosting a Boot Camp on the Victory Server. This event is geared towards players who would like to try team based PvP and those who would like to learn the basics of PvP mechanics.
While there are many barriers to players venturing into PvP: expense of IOing a PvP character; learning a whole new set of game mechanics (powers that work one way in PvE work totally different in PvP); and just the basic knowledge of what works and what doesn't. This event tries to remove these barriers by teaching players the basic skill of PvP while not requiring too much of an investment (time and influence) to do so.
The only requirements to joining this event are: you must be a player new to PvP; you must have a free character slot on the Victory Server; you must be free Fridays at 9pm est; and you must be willing to download Ventrilo (while it would be best for you to be able to both talk and listen to instructions, the ability to at least listen to lessons and your team is vital for team based PvP).
Visit http://tinyurl.com/pvpbc2 for more info!