Dm/Fire . Scrapper or Brute ?
By
BrandX,
Posted on: 2011-03-27 23:09 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Well it looks like you are just going for damage and scrapper is the win, you go brute if you want near scrapper damage and tankage.
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Originally Posted by Redd Rumm
i want to run a new toon an i was wondering what AT would benifit more from the souldrain/burn combo a brute or a scrapper my goal; mass desrtuction! so whats better a brutes rage or a scrappers higher damage cap?
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From a purely numbers perspective...
Brute imo.
I say this as someone who preferes Scrappers, and I only have one lvl 50 Brute and like 13 lvl 50 Scrappers.
Fire Armor just pays off with Brutes more so than Scrappers!
Fiery Embrace is effected by Fury, not so by Crits.
Burn is effected by Fury, not so by Crits.
Healing Flames and Siphon Life give bigger heals due to Brutes higher health.
90% Fire Resist (Brutes) vs 75% Fire Resist (Scrappers).
Blazing Aura, also effected by Fury and not by Crits.
I don't recall the Single Target DPS difference. And Scrappers do make out better on Soul Drain.
But, with it being a DM/FA pairing, I'd say Brutes make out better on this combo than Scrappers.
And as a Brute you can add in Gloom.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Just FYI, Brutes have a higher damage cap than Scrappers.
Brute +675%
Scrappers +400%
Also I'll agree with BrandX that I'd go with a Brute on this combo. /fire really benefits from a brute's higher base hitpoints.
I finally saw a 51+1 DM/Fiery Brute in action and I have to vote for Brute and only because Burn gets +damage from Fury and also the healing is going to be a bit better on Brute.
However, I don't think DM/Fiery Scrapper is that far off. Which AT do you prefer? If you've been playing on the blue side, then feel free to try Brute (and vice versa).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I have a DM/Fire Brute, and I do not have a DM/Fire scrapper, so I have a bias.
That being said, BRUTE!
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
/FA does not have a taunt aura for scrappers, but does for brutes. Scrappers may have situationally better damage output than brutes (with no damage buffs or with capped damage buffs, specifically), but brutes win out in every other aspect, here.
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Originally Posted by hemmingway3
/FA does not have a taunt aura for scrappers, but does for brutes. Scrappers may have situationally better damage output than brutes (with no damage buffs or with capped damage buffs, specifically), but brutes win out in every other aspect, here.
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ummmmm, i think you are wrong about the taunt aura... both scrappers and brutes get blazing aura. and if they don't, my fire/fire scrapper has got some 'splainin to do.
Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.
screw your joke, i want "FREEM"
Scrappers get blazing aura, but the scrapper version doesn't taunt.
Edit: blazing, not fiery.
He's right...they both get the power, but the scrapper version doesn't have a taunt component.
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Which, as a QoL things, is one of the reasons playing a brute can be 'easier.' They may have to chase their fury, but they don't have to chase foes as much. Taunt aura+gauntlet mean many foes 'stick' to a brute, while they high-tail it off when scrappers freak them out.
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Originally Posted by Supermax
He's right...they both get the power, but the scrapper version doesn't have a taunt component.
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Just maintaining 50% Fury (and I think the avg Fury is 60% isn't it? I can't recall), Brute Burn surpasses Scrapper Burn by quite a bit.
That's without Soul Drain being factored into the equation however.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
This|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Fire Armor just pays off with Brutes more so than Scrappers!
Fiery Embrace is effected by Fury, not so by Crits. Burn is effected by Fury, not so by Crits. Healing Flames and Siphon Life give bigger heals due to Brutes higher health. 90% Fire Resist (Brutes) vs 75% Fire Resist (Scrappers). Blazing Aura, also effected by Fury and not by Crits. I don't recall the Single Target DPS difference. And Scrappers do make out better on Soul Drain. But, with it being a DM/FA pairing, I'd say Brutes make out better on this combo than Scrappers. And as a Brute you can add in Gloom. |
The only thing I would add is that Blazing Aura for brutes has taunt and Scrappers doesn't. Just because of that I can't play a /FA Scrapper anymore. The mobs are always running away when I play with my /FA Scrapper
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
Frankly, it really depends on what you want to use it for, and how you plan on building the character.
For me, the answer is scrapper. (For reasons stated in the link in my sig.)
If you want it for farming/tanking purposes, a brute is probably a better choice. (Though it is possible to farm on a DM/Fire scrapper--you just have to be on your toes about it. )
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You don't think a DM/FIRE Brute would kill faster than a DM/FIRE Scrapper?|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Frankly, it really depends on what you want to use it for, and how you plan on building the character.
For me, the answer is scrapper. (For reasons stated in the link in my sig.) If you want it for farming/tanking purposes, a brute is probably a better choice. (Though it is possible to farm on a DM/Fire scrapper--you just have to be on your toes about it. ) |
Better AOE damage with the Brute, and I don't think the ST is really that far off to make a big difference, especially with Fiery Embrace giving better returns on the Brute.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Okay! Time to explain the damage scalars again.|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
Just FYI, Brutes have a higher damage cap than Scrappers.
Brute +675% Scrappers +400% |
This isn't actually painting an accurate picture, because of the damage scalar, which is easiest to think of as a multiplier applied to the damage of all attacks. Scrappers have a 1.125; Brutes have a 0.75. The reason the Brute cap is higher is so that they can have room for fury.
1.125[Scrapper scalar] x (100%[base] + 400%[capped bonus]) x 1.1[crit] = 6.1875
0.75[Brute scalar] x (100%[base] + 675%[capped bonus]) = 5.8125
In most circumstances, Scrappers will do more damage than Brutes, especially in sets with any kind of sustainable self-buff - because a given damage buff to a Scrapper is almost twice as good as a damage buff to a Brute. Actually, it's 1.875 times as good. Scrappers get 100% value from powers like Build up applied to their damage scalar of 1.125; Brutes get 80% applied to their 0.75. Soul Drain at high recharge falls into this category and is an incredible damage buff.
That said, Brutes do get more out of resist-based sets because of their higher cap, the self-heal will be stronger because of the Brute's higher HP, and Firey Embrace is a special case these days in terms of damage buffing, one I haven't had a chance to fully analyze - Though Scrapper Soul Drain would apply to Firey Embrace damage and cause a huuuuge multiplier.
Oh wow. I think I actually have to go and look at the numbers and think about this one.
Always go Brute for /FA.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Okay! So I went and did some of the math.
I did a whole host of calculations through the magic of the spreadsheet, and here are my findings:
A given DM or FA attack, even with Firey Embrace active, will do more damage from a Scrapper on even one Soul Drain target than it will on a Brute.
Let's take a typical example, Smite.
According to Mids, the scrapper version does 90.84 base damage. Firey Embrace adds 37.16 Fire Damage. These numbers already account for criticals in the base damage only.
On a Brute, these numbers are 55.05 and 24.77, respectively.
Scrapper:
Base Smite Damage, Firey Embraced: 128
Smite, Enhanced to 95%: 249.6
Smite, Enhanced and 1-target Soul Drain: 326.4
Smite, Enhanced and 3-target Soul Drain: 352.0
Smite, Enhanced and Max Soul Drain: 441.6
Brute:
Base Smite Damage, Firey Embraced: 79.82
Smite, Enhanced to 95% and with 75% Fury: 275.4
Smite, Enhanced, Furied and 1-Target Soul Drain: 323.3
Smite, Enhanced, Furied and 3-Target Soul Drain: 339.2
Smite, Enhanced, Furied and Max Soul Drain: 395.1
This pattern follows for all attacks in the primary; The moment Soul Drain enters the equation with even one target, the damage evens out, and the more soul drain targets you have, the further the Scrapper pulls ahead.
Firey Armor favors brutes with that resist cap, and the higher self-heals, but Soul Drain strongly favors Scrapper damage. So in this combo - It's as it should be.
Do you want to do slightly more damage, or live slightly longer?
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While I have no doubt the Scrapper will likely make outbetter on the ST damage.|
Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
Okay! So I went and did some of the math.
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How does it work out in the long run, with AOE damage (I'd think the Brutes would do more damage here) and with Brutes using Gloom (if I recall correctly, adding Gloom to the standard Dark Melee DPS string, increased it's DPS).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I think the answer really depends on how well you can leverage soul drain.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
While I have no doubt the Scrapper will likely make outbetter on the ST damage.
How does it work out in the long run, with AOE damage (I'd think the Brutes would do more damage here) and with Brutes using Gloom (if I recall correctly, adding Gloom to the standard Dark Melee DPS string, increased it's DPS). |
I can't speak for DM/FA, but I have a top end DM/SD build and with fully saturated AAO & Soul Drain running the top DM chain for brutes (which includes gloom) I get around 240-255 DPS, I still can't touch the top end chain for scrappers which is like 280-310 DPS.
My DPS using the standard Scrapper ST DM Chain was less than the Gloom Chain.
So while Gloom does give an improvement to the Brute - and you want it on the brute build for sure - I'm not sure it provides enough boost to overtake a Scrapper with fully saturated AAO.
The Brute's advantages are pretty well laid out in this thread.
Some extra HP, ability to self cap Fire Res, Taunt in BA, higher heal in siphon and access to Soul mastery for an excellent ranged DoT, Dark Obliteration (which I'd prefer to have over Shadow Maul) and Darkest Night (to increase survivability even further).
The Scrapper will have better ST DPS, and the more +Damage that is available on the team the further and further the Scrapper will pull ahead.
Quote:
I'm sorry, I don't... understand the question, which concerns me. What factor am I missing that says that the brutes with the same powersets and under the same set of conditions do more AoE damage?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
How does it work out in the long run, with AOE damage (I'd think the Brutes would do more damage here).
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I would vote brute probably due to some bias..but being that i have tried FA out on both sets, the brute seems to work better for survivability purposes..the longer you live the more you get to kill.. my 50 dm/fire brute is one of my favorite toons i have, i can blaze through just about anything at a high rate of speed... i also have a spine/fa scrapper which i like but just doesnt seem comparable, i wont truly judge the 2 until i hit 50 on the scrapper. I agree with the above posted though it does all come down to how you build the toon. I will include my dm/fire brute build if that will help aid your decision.... i pretty much have an aoe up at all times.i hardly ever use my ST dmg attacks..plus i only am using 40% S/L DEF and with the fast killing and high HP, more than a scrapper, its not an issue not soft capping out at all.....enjoy
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
DaSlaya aka Chris revamped: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- KntkC'bat-Knock%(A), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Fire Shield -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), RctvArm-EndRdx(9), S'fstPrt-ResKB(9), RctvArm-ResDam(40), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(40), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(42)
Level 2: Shadow Maul -- Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Oblit-%Dam(11), Oblit-Dmg(11), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(19), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(23), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23)
Level 4: Healing Flames -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(25), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(25)
Level 6: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(36), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- KntkC'bat-Knock%(A), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(27), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(27), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(29)
Level 10: Temperature Protection -- RctvArm-EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam(29), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(34), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(37)
Level 12: Kick -- KntkC'bat-Knock%(A), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(13), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(13), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(19)
Level 14: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 16: Plasma Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-EndRdx(37), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(37), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(39)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Oblit-Dmg(43), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(43), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(45), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 20: Vengeance -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 22: Consume -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Oblit-Dmg(46), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(48), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(48), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48)
Level 24: Blazing Aura -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 28: Burn -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg(31), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(31), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(34)
Level 30: Tough -- RctvArm-EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(39), RctvArm-ResDam(39), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(40)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- GravAnch-Hold%(A), GravAnch-Immob(33), GravAnch-Immob/Rchg(33), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx(33), GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(36), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36)
Level 38: Super Jump -- Zephyr-ResKB(A), Winter-ResSlow(45)
Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Superior Conditioning -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(45)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- Heal-I(A)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(50), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 50: Spiritual Radial Boost
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- KntkC'bat-Knock%(A), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- RgnTis-Regen+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(15), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(15), Numna-Heal(17), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(17)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21)
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I could be totally off on this, but I think this is coming down to DPS calculations. Brutes have a fury damage modifier that plays into and boosts their DPS, Scrappers have criticals. Brute's Fury boosts their blazing aura/burn damage, but neither can critical in the hands of a scrapper. So while brutes get fury+soul drain+fiery embrace on these powers, scrappers get only soul drain+fiery embrace. As such, I think it's being assumed that the three boosts for those powers on a brute will make the AoE DPS skew in the brute's favor, compared to aoe performance of a scrapper. I'm no numbers dude, but blazing aura and burn obviously do make up a big chunk of a DM/FA's AoE, so I think I get that.|
Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
I'm sorry, I don't... understand the question, which concerns me. What factor am I missing that says that the brutes with the same powersets and under the same set of conditions do more AoE damage?
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...Or I could be totally off and wrong.
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Well, figure Fury effects the damage of Burn, Blazing Aura, and added Fiery Embrace damage. Crits do not.|
Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
I'm sorry, I don't... understand the question, which concerns me. What factor am I missing that says that the brutes with the same powersets and under the same set of conditions do more AoE damage?
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Does Soul Drain on Scrappers give enough of an advantage to keep Scrappers ahead on the AOE damage front as well?
I tried checking Mids, but Scrapper's Fiery Embrace wasn't showing any difference to Burn, while the Brute version was.
Without Fiery Embrace, Brutes were making out (at 60% Fury) just a tiny tiny bit more on Burn's damage (was like 5 points more damage).
Now, Blazing Aura (where Fiery Embrace worked on Scrappers and Brutes) the damage was way more in favor of the Brutes all around, with Brutes doing about 15 points more a tick.
So I was curious as to whether or not Brutes AOE potential made up for Scrappers having more ST potential.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Exactly what I'm asking.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
I could be totally off on this, but I think this is coming down to DPS calculations. Brutes have a fury damage modifier that plays into and boosts their DPS, Scrappers have criticals. Brute's Fury boosts their blazing aura/burn damage, but neither can critical in the hands of a scrapper. So while brutes get fury+soul drain+fiery embrace on these powers, scrappers get only soul drain+fiery embrace. As such, I think it's being assumed that the three boosts for those powers on a brute will make the AoE DPS skew in the brute's favor, compared to aoe performance of a scrapper. I'm no numbers dude, but blazing aura and burn obviously do make up a big chunk of a DM/FA's AoE, so I think I get that.
...Or I could be totally off and wrong. |
ST DPS is nice, I'm a big fan of it, but I also realize that for normal missions, AOE damage is usually what more people want.
Also, when factoring in ST DPS, when it comes to DM/FIRE Scrapper/Brutes, I think one would have to factor in the use of Blazing Aura (maybe not Burn) and the added damage it adds while clicking away with the ST DPS string.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
i want to run a new toon an i was wondering what AT would benifit more from the souldrain/burn combo a brute or a scrapper my goal; mass desrtuction! so whats better a brutes rage or a scrappers higher damage cap?