Praetorian storyline does not bother me.
By
Arnabas,
Posted on: 2011-03-27 20:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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"Many of the same people" would be more accurate |
Originally Posted by LegionAlpha
I noticed many
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@Golden Girl
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I think it's an awesome storyline, and sufficiently epic enough to warrant the "big arc of the year" feel that at least the "big two" comics publishers often do, especially Marvel. So I agree with Golden Girl that a lot of the noise might be coming from a vocal minority; people who are happy with it are likely less motivated to come and post. Such is human nature. A few unsatisfied customers complain on the forums while oodles of satisfied customers are busy playing the game--something the devs are well aware of without someone like me pointing it out.
The only nitpick I have with the Going Rogue storyline is the same ole nitpick I keep hearing from others, that it may represent a divergence from the mega customization that really put City of Heroes on the map seven years ago. If you're an incarnate, the Well of the Furies is your origin of power--and seemingly, gone are the days when your origin of power was up to you. But the story's not over yet, and I half-expect Paragon Studios to prove me wrong. 
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I have expected the story of "the origin of power" to do what Ultimates series did when they explained mutants at the end of Ultimatum of sorts. But I agree were heading into part two of the story, so anything can happen.
Only thing I don't like about this story is that Cole is now Cosmic Cole. That came outta left field. Other than that, I loved GR and the new TFs. I just wish it wouldn't take up five/six issues like how the Devs seem to plan on it.
No different when they made Thanos a god with the Guantlet or Superboy so powerful he punched a hole in reality(heard this happen but did not read the book), or Hal Jordan go all Parallax. A character going all cosmic is nothing new. But we agree 5 or 6 issues is too long.
I like to add that the issue 19.5 would be cool when they added the animal pack that they came with a story to introduce them like the Kheldians.
Introduce...animal people? I...what?
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Well the classic is to have all the build up with your cosmic big bad, finally take him down and then find out that there was actually an even more powerful evil force behind him and that he was just a puppet. Problem is, they've kind of blown that one by announcing from the get go that that's exactly what's going on |
Originally Posted by Xzero45
Only thing I don't like about this story is that Cole is now Cosmic Cole. That came outta left field. Other than that, I loved GR and the new TFs. I just wish it wouldn't take up five/six issues like how the Devs seem to plan on it.
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What remains to be seen is how well they handle the rest of the plotline and how long they try and drag it out for. They need to be careful to avoid the "Well puppet of the week" trap, because once Cole is gone (at least this time around) they're going to have to find a way to keep the Well featured (so the Incarnate stuff still makes sense) but without rehashing the same story over again. Unless they fill the last 3 incarnate slots in i21 and wrap up the whole incarnate thing in one go, of course.
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Some days I wonder if we didn't suffer for losing Jack Emmert (a scary thought). Sure, the guy had a very *** backwards view of game design, but damned if he didn't at least keep the plot consistent and the story fast and loose. These recent... Developments trouble me. Stories coming out of the aether, story arcs existing with no backstory, no build-up and no lasting point, shoddy writing, railroading plots... I have to wonder how much of a crap anyone on the development team gives about this game's story at all, to say nothing of games as an artistic medium. This approach that "Story is just an excuse to punch things." and "You can just pretend it didn't happen." has the potential to erode one of the core principles of what makes City of Heroes great.
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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
The only nitpick I have with the Going Rogue storyline is the same ole nitpick I keep hearing from others, that it may represent a divergence from the mega customization that really put City of Heroes on the map seven years ago. If you're an incarnate, the Well of the Furies is your origin of power--and seemingly, gone are the days when your origin of power was up to you. But the story's not over yet, and I half-expect Paragon Studios to prove me wrong.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yep. This.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Some days I wonder if we didn't suffer for losing Jack Emmert (a scary thought). Sure, the guy had a very *** backwards view of game design, but damned if he didn't at least keep the plot consistent and the story fast and loose. These recent... Developments trouble me. Stories coming out of the aether, story arcs existing with no backstory, no build-up and no lasting point, shoddy writing, railroading plots... I have to wonder how much of a crap anyone on the development team gives about this game's story at all, to say nothing of games as an artistic medium. This approach that "Story is just an excuse to punch things." and "You can just pretend it didn't happen." has the potential to erode one of the core principles of what makes City of Heroes great.
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For the most part, the Praetorian storyline does not bother me either.
What bothers me is that it seems to be the only storyline at the moment.
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This is something else I wanted to say - all the bad things I said about the writing in City of Heroes don't apply to Praetoria... Mostly. The arcs there are well-written, they draw from history established in-game, they have a lasting impact (sometimes different depending on what you do, such as Steffard becoming a serial killer), and there is enough of a weight of lore to Praetoria to make for a believable environment.|
Originally Posted by StormSurvivor
For the most part, the Praetorian storyline does not bother me either.
What bothers me is that it seems to be the only storyline at the moment. |
That's Praetoria up to level 20, however. The praetoria of 40-50 and especially the Praetoria of 50+ is boring and trite and has no real backstory other than "Tyrant bad! Go kill!" What was an otherwise rich, engaging world with believable characters and emphatic morality is rendered into nothing more than what Praetorian Earth was before we started calling it Praetoria - a goatee evil version of our own world. And it's not just the old, not-entirely-changed stories that do this. The Incarnate content does as much, if not more, to profane an otherwise good story.
The other problem with Praetoria's canon is that it's precisely skin deep, as others have pointed out. Yes, it's very interesting and engaging, but between the four paths to level 20, we exhaust literally ALL of it. The ghouls have been fixed, the Syndicate is broken, the Destroyers have been curbed, Metronome has been stopped and... There really isn't much more than this. I guess the Mother of Mercy hospital and Penelope Yin's story may be interesting, but everything else is done, including David Nakayama's Noble Savage.
Once upon a time, a developer described a lot of the "hanging" stories in City of Heroes, like Tub Chi, Lughebu, Tielekku and so forth as "story seeds," that is plotlines which exist as part of canon, but aren't explored. That's why when people are asked to point out what else they'd like to see explored in City of Heroes, they always have a pick. But if you were asked what else Praetoria had which wasn't explored, but you'd like to see it, what would you pick? What is there to pick? The world of Praetorian Earth begins with Going Rogue and ends with Going Rogue, and there is nothing which has been established which could serve to expand or extend the plot. What could we POSSIBLY have that could fill in another 30 levels' worth of content? Because I see nothing of the sort even hinted at.
BioWare's games are very good at drawing on a larger universe without actually HAVING a large universe. You meet veterans from wars only mentioned in history books, you're faced with prejudice and racism that has existed for centuries, you explore cultures set in their traditions opposed by factions whose goal is to innovate, but whose objectives and beliefs are formed by those same traditions... You have a wider world from which each story originates, in which each story takes place and which each story ultimately reflects back onto. Their stories don't exist in their own pocket dimensions, unrelated to anything else ever in the world.
Even if you don't HAVE a huge Tolkeinian world all written down to language of the elves and the dwarves, you can at least have enough of a world to reference, or at the very least make up references to a broader world as you go. Such doesn't happen in Praetoria. We have the one bum in the tunnels who talks about the USA and that's it. Few people talk about the Hamidon wars, the world before, about politics, about economics, about culture, religion, ideas, hopes, beliefs, hatreds, anger, resentment. Praetoria has just enough depth to carry it 20 levels. However, when that is done, we MUST leave, or else we'll drop off the edge of the world.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This post and your next one are both excellent and I only hope that the devs see them and take them into consideration with whatever they plan to do next.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Some days I wonder if we didn't suffer for losing Jack Emmert (a scary thought). Sure, the guy had a very *** backwards view of game design, but damned if he didn't at least keep the plot consistent and the story fast and loose. These recent... Developments trouble me. Stories coming out of the aether, story arcs existing with no backstory, no build-up and no lasting point, shoddy writing, railroading plots... I have to wonder how much of a crap anyone on the development team gives about this game's story at all, to say nothing of games as an artistic medium. This approach that "Story is just an excuse to punch things." and "You can just pretend it didn't happen." has the potential to erode one of the core principles of what makes City of Heroes great.
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30 levels of Devouring Earth?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What could we POSSIBLY have that could fill in another 30 levels' worth of content? Because I see nothing of the sort even hinted at.
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Actually, now that I think about it, Praetoria has a huge scope for future level content as long as you move its story forward. Have Cole defeated in i21 and then have other zones in other cities across Praetorian Earth with their own issues as the whole world fights to take back the planet from Hamidon & the DE.
Cole's defeat would leave a huge power vacuum to be filled, allowing you to bring in virtually any new factions you wanted to without too much crowbarring and you've then got a whole new "world" to work with.
The only issue I can see is that "killing off" the Praetorian regime might cause issues with the old pre-i21 praetorian content, but you can always cheat that using Ouroboros as an excuse; multiple timelines, yadda yadda.
Praetoria as it stands may be a content dead end, but as long as the devs are willing to take some risks I think it could be a fertile ground for future expansion.
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The problem is, it wouldn't be an expansion. It would be something new, tacked on to the old, and it would feel as tacked on as S.A.M. does. The only thing left there is the DE, and I certainly wouldn't want to fight nothing but them for 30 levels.
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Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
Praetoria as it stands may be a content dead end, but as long as the devs are willing to take some risks I think it could be a fertile ground for future expansion.
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In my visions of the future, I see post-Tyrant Praetoria as a PvP playground, where heroes can hero and villains can villain in the same zone, but I'm not sure the devs will want to touch that hot rail again.
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Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
Cole's defeat would leave a huge power vacuum to be filled, allowing you to bring in virtually any new factions you wanted to without too much crowbarring and you've then got a whole new "world" to work with.
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The thing is, if what Jack brought to the table storytelling wise really was that great, why haven't we seen the same success out of his other projects? What you see as consistency and fast and loose, I see as rote storytelling and an inability to concentrate on one project before running off after the next idea to pop inside his head. Sure, it got City off the ground, but as we found out, it wasn't what the game needed as it matured.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Some days I wonder if we didn't suffer for losing Jack Emmert (a scary thought). Sure, the guy had a very *** backwards view of game design, but damned if he didn't at least keep the plot consistent and the story fast and loose. These recent... Developments trouble me. Stories coming out of the aether, story arcs existing with no backstory, no build-up and no lasting point, shoddy writing, railroading plots... I have to wonder how much of a crap anyone on the development team gives about this game's story at all, to say nothing of games as an artistic medium. This approach that "Story is just an excuse to punch things." and "You can just pretend it didn't happen." has the potential to erode one of the core principles of what makes City of Heroes great.
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Story wise/lore wise Jack's team was decent. Story telling wise Jack's team was absolutely awful.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
The thing is, if what Jack brought to the table storytelling wise really was that great, why haven't we seen the same success out of his other projects? What you see as consistency and fast and loose, I see as rote storytelling and an inability to concentrate on one project before running off after the next idea to pop inside his head. Sure, it got City off the ground, but as we found out, it wasn't what the game needed as it matured.
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The devs have said that they'd like to release a Trial per Issue, so it looks like I21 will have the Anti-Matter Trail in it, and I22 will have the Hamidon Trial in it - and we've already seen David Nakayama's concept art from mother Mayehm's asylum, which would need to be another Trial, as she's only appeared in the cutscene for the BAF so far.
So far, Marauder, Siege and Nightstar are the only Paretorian AVs we've fought, so there are a lot more left to do, not counting Anti-Matter in his Trial.
Neuron might show up to muscle in on Anti-Matter's action in that Trial, or the devs might decide to leave the TMTF as his only appearance in the Incarnate content, along with Bobcat, and have Battle Maiden only appear in the Apex TF.
Shadowhunter is dead, but we still haven't fought Black Swan, Chimera, Diabolique, Dominatirx, Infernal, Malaise, Mother Mayhem or Tyrant yet - and if they pair them off, we could fight Mother Mayhem and Malaise at her Asylum, Infernal and Dibolique at some magic-themed Praetorian location, Black Swan on Shadow Earth, Chimera in some security facility of some type, and Tyrant and Dominatrix, along with a legion of the Olympian Guard in a "final" Trial.
Another possibility is that the final Tyrant Trial could involve the entire Praetorian Guard in a last stand, along with every type of Praetorian enemy we've ever faced - sort of like an STF/LRSF on steroids 
@Golden Girl
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This actually sounds plausible, but let's do the math here. 4 more Praetorian Trials, with 1 per issue... assuming that Paragon Studios keep to their usual schedule for updates we're looking at what... mid-2012 to bring this to a conclusion?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The devs have said that they'd like to release a Trial per Issue, so it looks like I21 will have the Anti-Matter Trail in it, and I22 will have the Hamidon Trial in it - and we've already seen David Nakayama's concept art from mother Mayehm's asylum, which would need to be another Trial, as she's only appeared in the cutscene for the BAF so far.
So far, Marauder, Siege and Nightstar are the only Paretorian AVs we've fought, so there are a lot more left to do, not counting Anti-Matter in his Trial. Neuron might show up to muscle in on Anti-Matter's action in that Trial, or the devs might decide to leave the TMTF as his only appearance in the Incarnate content, along with Bobcat, and have Battle Maiden only appear in the Apex TF. Shadowhunter is dead, but we still haven't fought Black Swan, Chimera, Diabolique, Dominatirx, Infernal, Malaise, Mother Mayhem or Tyrant yet - and if they pair them off, we could fight Mother Mayhem and Malaise at her Asylum, Infernal and Dibolique at some magic-themed Praetorian location, Black Swan on Shadow Earth, Chimera in some security facility of some type, and Tyrant and Dominatrix, along with a legion of the Olympian Guard in a "final" Trial. Another possibility is that the final Tyrant Trial could involve the entire Praetorian Guard in a last stand, along with every type of Praetorian enemy we've ever faced - sort of like an STF/LRSF on steroids |
That's two years of Praetoria, from Going Rogue to the finale. I don't see how anyone wouldn't be sick of fighting Praetorians by that time.
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One Trial per Issue would mean they'd be adding other stuff too - Issue 20 is massive because of the new Trial system - a huge amount of the current testing is focused just on getting it right - but once it's been added to the game, adding further Trials becomes easier.|
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
This actually sounds plausible, but let's do the math here. 4 more Praetorian Trials, with 1 per issue... assuming that Paragon Studios keep to their usual schedule for updates we're looking at what... mid-2012 to bring this to a conclusion?
That's two years of Praetoria, from Going Rogue to the finale. I don't see how anyone wouldn't be sick of fighting Praetorians by that time. |
Once it's up and running, creating new Trails won't need the same amount of time and resources that are being used on I20, which should free up more time and resources for non-Trial content.
EDIT: Also, adding a new Trial against Praetorians in an Issue doesn't mean that the Issue has to be focused on Praetoria - the Praetorian war and the cosmic upheaval caused by Tyrant and the Well can be in the background, and used as a reason for other stuff to get some attention - there are lots of known and unknown groups who could try and take advantage of the situation.
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They promised us the moon once. Maybe they will go back to it. (grin)|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
...which should free up more time and resources for non-Trial content.
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Seriously tho; once travel between the two earths is 'common' there's lots of potential to play with. Malta and Arachnos both might be interested in meddling. There's a half dozen Portal Corps missions which could be stepping stones to new content that impacts both earths. And what about the Rikti? What might they do if they found the way to Preatoria? Could there be Trials where instead of fighting against Preatorians you are fighting with them to drive back a massive 'end around' invasion from the Rikti?
Personally I'd like to see the Midnighter's Club become something other than the place you travel through to get to Cimeroa. (sp?) Right now I feel they are just the unwanted step children of Orobus. It always seemed like a disconnect to me when the Time Travel Group wasn't the stepping stone to the Back in Time zone of the game. Getting back on track here, if the Midnighters are 'neutral' towards Rogue Islands and Paragon, why can't the be neutral towards Praetoria? Open up a branch office there and explore the consequences.
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Because Rick Dakan hasn't been involved in his other projects.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
The thing is, if what Jack brought to the table storytelling wise really was that great, why haven't we seen the same success out of his other projects?
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Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
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That is a point. Jack may have taken over development of CoH, but he wasn't the one who started the whole thing rolling.
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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
Because Rick Dakan hasn't been involved in his other projects.
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I noticed many are annoyed with the current story, and it is understandable it seems drawn out and boring right now. But I would like to add that the devs are doing their story like comics, so think of Issue 18 was like the prelude( Secret Invasion with Marvel And Blackest Night DC) and 19 being part one, so I expect issue 20 to be more of a build up, but hope this is not 6 issues, the gap between stories is killing me.