Ambush Farm Support


baron_inferno

 

Posted

I'm sort of curious, with the somewhat new advent of fire enemy ambush farming, support* characters often don't play much of role. Reason being, even at the defense cap, the damage coming in from an aggro cap of +3/4's (all with high damage fire) WILL kill you eventually.

So to support the man plowing the fields, what is the best AT - power set?
(without being another damage taker)

In old farms, I found sonic best covered all the holes kin lacked (old most common farmers being fire/kins) it gave resistance to stack over the def cap, and -res that traveled with the farmer, no anchoring or reapplying required, along with some -defense.

Now, Sonic still has one thing going for it that no other support types do. It's Ally anchor res debuff draws no aggro, and can be kept toggled on at quite long distances (long enough to keep your character out of the way of ambushes). That allows the farmer to farm EXACTLY 30% faster, because that's all it offers, since fire brutes/tanks are the top farmers these days, you're not adding anything with +res since they're already hard capped.

Other than forcefields (whose contribution is obvious) are there any other aggro free support* types, or sorts that can somehow magically handle it?

* By support, I mean buff/debuff/control or indirect damage, basically anything to make farms go faster without being the farmer yourself.


"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo

 

Posted

Well, most of the people running these will already be sitting at the resist cap (for fire at least) and the defense softcap, and the enemies don't debuff resistance or defense. Therefore, the only support you can offer is buffs to kill speed (damage, recharge, to-hit) and healing/regen/recovery, or debuffs. Since you want aggro-free, that discounts most debuffs. Your best bet then is going to be empathy or pain domination.

Empathy can be used by a defender, which will mean your heals will heal more. Other than that, the sets are relatively similar, with pain domination having more damage buffs and empathy having more recharge buffs. Overall I'd say go with empathy, and aim for perma adrenalin boost, but either set will be good for what you want to do.


 

Posted

As soon as the ambush is triggered, every player character on the map gets aggro. Even dead toons. There are no aggroless players on that sort of map. For consitant buffs, the best bet is to have the farmer take veng and he can buff off of your door sitting dead body.

I predict the tears that happen once this sort of mish gets fixed will be very tasty indeed.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge View Post
I predict the tears that happen once this sort of mish gets fixed will be very tasty indeed.
Eh, I doubt it. I've been on a few, and the rewards are nothing special. Certainly nothing on the level of some of the exploitive AE farms that have existed in the past.

However, I do disagree with the necessity for this to get fixed (just like I did the all-boss farms that were popular for awhile). This is not an exploit, and the risk/reward ratio is not incorrect for this. These farms are quite difficult, and the rewards are commensurately high. Nothing wrong with that.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by firespray View Post
Eh, I doubt it. I've been on a few, and the rewards are nothing special. Certainly nothing on the level of some of the exploitive AE farms that have existed in the past.

However, I do disagree with the necessity for this to get fixed (just like I did the all-boss farms that were popular for awhile). This is not an exploit, and the risk/reward ratio is not incorrect for this. These farms are quite difficult, and the rewards are commensurately high. Nothing wrong with that.
Agreed. It's just a very difficult mish that only a very specific range of builds can survive in. It's not an exploit along the lines of the Rikti Monkey maps (I still have no idea how that worked...). It'd be no different than an Electric Armor toon doing missions filled with Mu or an Invuln facing nothing but Smashing/Lethal damage. Or a Stone facing, well, anything except Psi.

EDIT: And to answer the OP, the best bet would be an Emp/Sonic Defender with softcapped Fire defense. I don't even know if softcapped Fire defense is possible on an Emp. Sonic is the better secondary option for the Cone Sleep (mag3).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katten View Post
I'm sort of curious, with the somewhat new advent of fire enemy ambush farming, support* characters often don't play much of role. Reason being, even at the defense cap, the damage coming in from an aggro cap of +3/4's (all with high damage fire) WILL kill you eventually.

So to support the man plowing the fields, what is the best AT - power set?
(without being another damage taker)

In old farms, I found sonic best covered all the holes kin lacked (old most common farmers being fire/kins) it gave resistance to stack over the def cap, and -res that traveled with the farmer, no anchoring or reapplying required, along with some -defense.

Now, Sonic still has one thing going for it that no other support types do. It's Ally anchor res debuff draws no aggro, and can be kept toggled on at quite long distances (long enough to keep your character out of the way of ambushes). That allows the farmer to farm EXACTLY 30% faster, because that's all it offers, since fire brutes/tanks are the top farmers these days, you're not adding anything with +res since they're already hard capped.

Other than forcefields (whose contribution is obvious) are there any other aggro free support* types, or sorts that can somehow magically handle it?

* By support, I mean buff/debuff/control or indirect damage, basically anything to make farms go faster without being the farmer yourself.
For speed and laziness:
Stick to sonic, just toggle on the debuff and stick them behind a wall. Wreck stuff. Anything else is at greater risk of catching a stray AOE or something freakish and getting killed.

For Being just a little less lazy:
Pocket AB and Fort make life very easy.


on an added note, the buffer should be a lvl locked 33 and needs nothing but SOs.

proceed to market seeding of lvl 33 recipes for $$$$.


"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge View Post
As soon as the ambush is triggered, every player character on the map gets aggro. Even dead toons. There are no aggroless players on that sort of map. For consitant buffs, the best bet is to have the farmer take veng and he can buff off of your door sitting dead body.

I predict the tears that happen once this sort of mish gets fixed will be very tasty indeed.
You clearly have no idea how to run this map properly. No one but the killer should ever die.


"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by James_Donner View Post
You clearly have no idea how to run this map properly. No one but the killer should ever die.
Nope he is right, even a stalker in hide that hasnt done anything will get aggro and mobs will camp around something that is already dead.
And, it would be THESE maps.

Also to the OP just like SinisterDirge said you being dead could give the farmer veng (which is awesome btw) thats about all a support toon can do. They simply can't surive without a ton of orange and purple insp.


"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal

@Caucasiafro

 

Posted

I'm not speaking canonically, but my gut tells me a character who boosts kill rate with attacks of his or her own is more useful than general support in this specific instance. Support can help some, but killing stuff is where the value in even bothering with this kind of mission is.

This is assuming the "farmer" has the ability to survive the enemies in the first place (i.e. probably soft capped at a minimum). If that condition isn't met, I would bet on Empathy first. But the main character would need purples to boost up to the soft cap.

The reason I put stock in Empathy and not a lot else is that part of the reason this mission works is that the lead can swallow inspirations as they come raining in, leading to very high resistance values even on characters who don't always have it. However, you can't eat a pill for the +100% recharge in AB, and the sheer survivability of that power helps a lot. If not Empathy, I'd say Kinetics for recharge and kill speed. This mission really is about mowing enemies down at maximum rates.

(Note that if the mission is done on "basic" settings, with bosses turned off, my vote switches to some kind of Ice Controller with Arctic Air. That's because Arctic Air has few limits on AoE caps, and the masses of confused enemies chew into each other. A Plant Dominator can do this to some extent with bosses on, but it's not quite the same trick.)


 

Posted

Just die near the farmer and pass red inspirations to him. Combine stuff as needed to make more reds.


Winteriel Ice/Fire/Soul Tanker | @TBoxer Global | City of Heroes R.I.P. (2004-2012)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBoxer View Post
Just die near the farmer and pass red inspirations to him. Combine stuff as needed to make more reds.
That's your support on a mission of this sort, heh.



my lil RWZ Challenge vid

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge View Post
As soon as the ambush is triggered, every player character on the map gets aggro. Even dead toons. There are no aggroless players on that sort of map. For consitant buffs, the best bet is to have the farmer take veng and he can buff off of your door sitting dead body.

I predict the tears that happen once this sort of mish gets fixed will be very tasty indeed.

I've seen some back and forth on this, so to get this straight.

Only players in the path between the enemies (wherever they spawn) and the person who triggered will get aggro (and stealth means nothing to them) I sonic defender running the death donut can do so quite safely simply by standing down an abandoned hallway, so long as it isn't an unlucky spawn point. That's just experience, so it can't really be disputed. Looks like it and emp (if you can manage to keep alive for AB's) are most useful still.


"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo

 

Posted

Im not very skilled at AE, what map do you use?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katten View Post
I've seen some back and forth on this, so to get this straight.

Only players in the path between the enemies (wherever they spawn) and the person who triggered will get aggro (and stealth means nothing to them) I sonic defender running the death donut can do so quite safely simply by standing down an abandoned hallway, so long as it isn't an unlucky spawn point. That's just experience, so it can't really be disputed. Looks like it and emp (if you can manage to keep alive for AB's) are most useful still.

Well, if we're talking about +4s, Sonic's donut is only giving you about -15% resistance. That's better than nothing but I wouldn't roll a whole character just for that. Given how vulnerable those particular enemies are to -Recharge and knockdown, an Ice Control/Empathy soft capped to range is probably my top pick for pure support, because its likely to actually survive based on the totality of buffs/debuffs/heals; my Ice/Rad/Psi can survive it quite easily. But if top efficiency is your worry, I would still prefer to just get a second high damage character.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBoxer View Post
Just die near the farmer and pass red inspirations to him. Combine stuff as needed to make more reds.
I find this, along with the whole "Veng Bait" thing is the best for ambush farms. But in my case I really could use oranges more than the reds since I farm on a blaster and my damage is already through the roof, but my resistance isn't. Plus I have no innate heal to compensate either. I farm at +4/*8 when I'm doing it for the XP and 17 mobs at level 54 hacking away at my blaster even with his capped defence and HP will still take him down if I don't keep popping oranges for at least 60-65% Resist, preferably 75% on top of the capped def/HP.

The reason I don't think it should be a second "Farmer support" toon is because this way it's simply more inf for the farmer and more XP for the lowbies.


@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katten View Post
I've seen some back and forth on this, so to get this straight.

Only players in the path between the enemies (wherever they spawn) and the person who triggered will get aggro (and stealth means nothing to them) I sonic defender running the death donut can do so quite safely simply by standing down an abandoned hallway, so long as it isn't an unlucky spawn point. That's just experience, so it can't really be disputed. Looks like it and emp (if you can manage to keep alive for AB's) are most useful still.
It can, and I do dispute it. Considering I have several toons that are capable of running such a mission, and a second account that allows a door sitter should I choose to do so, I promise you, The door sitter gets aggro despite being at the door, and no where in between the spawn point, and the trigger toon. I have parked the lowbie on diferent floors even, and have still died.

I have seen the spawns take out a FF defender in PFF in about 4 seconds, they eat the elite boss "helpers" really fast too. If you really, truly want to help on this type of mish, roll a toon that can solo it, and then join team with them, the increased kill speed will be the biggest "buff" to the farmer. It really is better than Veng.

Can't be disputed. Heh...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by firespray View Post
Eh, I doubt it. I've been on a few, and the rewards are nothing special. Certainly nothing on the level of some of the exploitive AE farms that have existed in the past.

However, I do disagree with the necessity for this to get fixed (just like I did the all-boss farms that were popular for awhile). This is not an exploit, and the risk/reward ratio is not incorrect for this. These farms are quite difficult, and the rewards are commensurately high. Nothing wrong with that.
I am pretty sure a conveyer belt of bags of xp delivered right to your feet is an exploit of some description You are forgetting that time+risk=reward is the ratio. It is not just risk=reward. I have seen less exploitive things fixed. Posts on the boards asking how to run such things are harbringers of fixes.

Did you say they are difficult without cracking a smile?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge View Post
I am pretty sure a conveyer belt of bags of xp delivered right to your feet is an exploit of some description You are forgetting that time+risk=reward is the ratio. It is not just risk=reward. I have seen less exploitive things fixed. Posts on the boards asking how to run such things are harbringers of fixes.

They are not difficult.
They are certainly more difficult than most AE exploit farms have been. These require some actual skill to pull off.

And while I agree with you that they will most likely be nerfed, I'm just saying I don't agree that they need to be. I think that risk=reward should be the only metric for determining if something is an exploit or not. Time should not factor into it. Or if the devs are going to include time, then they should just put a cap on leveling speed and be done with it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by James_Donner View Post
You clearly have no idea how to run this map properly. No one but the killer should ever die.
Clearly.


 

Posted

I do this map with a Arch/MM blaster.

Pop Aim and Concentrate, RoA, Drain Pysche, The PBAoE from MM (forget the name), Explosive Arrow...repeat


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge View Post
I am pretty sure a conveyer belt of bags of xp delivered right to your feet is an exploit of some description You are forgetting that time+risk=reward is the ratio. It is not just risk=reward. I have seen less exploitive things fixed. Posts on the boards asking how to run such things are harbringers of fixes.

Did you say they are difficult without cracking a smile?
Fire farms are incredibly difficult for anyone that isn't specifically built for that one task. S/L farms are easier and open to almost any AT, because it's a lot easier to softcap defense and get some resist behind it, regardless of AT (Tough + APP/PPP). For Fire farms, you're pretty much down to using a Fiery Aura Brute. Fiery Aura Tankers are somewhat more survivable, but do significantly less damage (more safe, less efficient). Fiery Aura Scrappers do less damage and have less survivability (less safe, less efficient). Anything else is in trouble and likely won't last seconds (e.g. the PFF example).

So this is a situation where one particular armor set is uniquely suited for one very specific task. That is okay. What you don't want is one particular armor set capable of handling everything without some downside (e.g. even Stone has -recharge). Fire has big downsides compared to its peers and the more you build for Fire farming, the more those downsides show up in non-Fire content.

With current builds, even modest builds, it's easy to have only nominal risk in all PVE content, so why should AE be treated differently? Fire ambush farming carries obscene risk (possibly worse than soloing AVs) that can only be mitigated through the choice of a single armor set. It is nearly entirely mitigated by that choice, yes, but any other choice produces an unsurvivable level of risk (e.g. again, the PFF example) so as to make the reward roughly zero.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by streetlight View Post
With current builds, even modest builds, it's easy to have only nominal risk in all PVE content, so why should AE be treated differently? Fire ambush farming carries obscene risk (possibly worse than soloing AVs) that can only be mitigated through the choice of a single armor set.
AE skews the time+risk=reward ratio There is no need to travel on an ambush map, the mobs come to you. They are not spaced out as in regular content, they all come at the same time. They come and they wait for you. All you need to survive is 17 at a time, not the whole spawns worth. They come and then stand there and look at you menacingly until it is their time to aggro on you and die in the mill. Like something out of a bad kung fu movie.

Its is not difficult. It is not me you need to convince that it is harmless to the game. Good luck convincing the devs.


 

Posted

These aren't an exploit in the sense that they aren't taking advantage of an unintended glitch in the system such as the rikti communicators, level 10 GM mastermind farms or monkeys. This is no more exploitive than making a high fire resist fire/kin for the Praetorian Demon mish. Since AE farming in general is frowned upon though, the first 2 rules of any farm you like is DON'T TALK ABOUT IT ON THE FORUMS!
It also boggles the mind that you're going to make a toon to be PL'd just to 'help out' with PL'ing, presumably 'helping' by being an extra body to lower the exp per kill. This has Freedom Atlas Park AE baby written all over it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBoxer View Post
Just die near the farmer and pass red inspirations to him. Combine stuff as needed to make more reds.
This is the best possible support you can do in most cases.

The other would be, stay alive and help kill stuff. The farmer should (keyword) already be able to survive on their own so added def, resist or heals are pretty much useless. Considering on ambush farms, the farmer is well beyond the aggro cap so just getting near them will cause a quick death in most cases. It will not matter if your buffs/debuffs cause aggro or not, you just being on the map when the amubshes spawn is enough.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge View Post
AE skews the time+risk=reward ratio There is no need to travel on an ambush map, the mobs come to you. They are not spaced out as in regular content, they all come at the same time. They come and they wait for you. All you need to survive is 17 at a time, not the whole spawns worth. They come and then stand there and look at you menacingly until it is their time to aggro on you and die in the mill. Like something out of a bad kung fu movie.

Its is not difficult. It is not me you need to convince that it is harmless to the game. Good luck convincing the devs.
Devs are well aware of this already and have been aware of it for months and have done nothing. Actual exploits are fixed much faster. It would seem that the devs need a bit more convincing than some people think.